Interesting Sailboats - Page 423 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Chat  
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree1266Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #4221  
Old 06-04-2013
Edward3's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 96
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 2
Edward3 is on a distinguished road
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Per Jeanneau's 3600 Inventory/Technical sheet:
Keel mixed lead / iron with an epoxy surface treatment
As previously stated, keel will probably be similar to all other Jenneaus, L shapped
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #4222  
Old 06-04-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,193
Thanks: 21
Thanked 100 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Sunfast 3600 - JPK 1080

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
...
.comparable and quite high B/D ratio, but the JPK carries 10% more sail for exactly the same hull length.
Probably you are right (the Sunfast sail area consider a genoa) but the numbers I saw were pretty close: JPK 72m2, Sunfast 69 m2. As the Sun fast is lighter (4500kg to 4800kg) has a similar draft (less 5cms), more B/D ratio but less 10cm of beam, regarding R/M for weight and wet surface it should be very close and I would say that the performances will be very similar.

http://www.jeanneau.com/medias/CMS/b...0327164807.pdf

JPK

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
.
.... But for cruising the fixed 2.20m draft of both yachts can be quite restrictive for a 36 footer.

.

At the drawing stage I already very much like the coach roof design of the JPK. It gives headroom where it is most needed (cabin entry, galley and nav station, hopefully with frontal view!), makes for easy circulation on deck (outboard stanchions mean you must pass below the lowers) and allows a transversal solent rail for better upwind performance.

So at this stage I personally also prefer the design of the JPK from a cruiser/racer point of view, but certainly await the tests and reviews on the water before making an educated judgment. “The proof of the pudding is in the eating” and as we all know, personal tastes can be very, very different .

..
Agree on the last part but regarding the 2.20m draft it is alright on a performance boat for most places, except when big tides are involved but that is rather the exception. Yes they are top performance cruiser-racers so it is normal a swing keel not to be considered (more drag).

You forget to mention on the JPK, as an advantage, those two watch posts for having an outside view when you sail the boat solo from the inside. I wonder how well it will work. On the racing version you can seat by both sides.

I thought that you were going to comment about the performance of the Pogo 12.50 on the "Round the Island race". Download the excel file and have a look, it was just great, I mean in real time because regarding handicap the Pogo will never be a fast boat. Fast on the water, slow on the paper

J.P. Morgan Asset Management Round the Island Race - Results for the 2013 race

Regards

Paulo
EricKLYC likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 06-04-2013 at 12:49 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #4223  
Old 06-04-2013
MrPelicano's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Western Connecticut, USA
Posts: 720
Thanks: 10
Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts
Rep Power: 3
MrPelicano is on a distinguished road
Re: Interesting Sailboats

It is a drag race in Leg 1 of the Solitaire de Figaro, with the top 15 boats all within 2 miles of the leader, Alexis Loison. MichDej is 0.1 of a mile from Loison, although the wind appears to have gone very, very light as the sun sets and they transition to the evening breeze. This is racing at the highest level, and it looks like it will be a dog fight all the way to the finish line in Porto. I can just imagine a tacking / gybing duel between 5-6 boats within the last few km. Awesome!

Le Figaro - La Solitaire
__________________
We deal in lead, friend.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #4224  
Old 06-04-2013
MrPelicano's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Western Connecticut, USA
Posts: 720
Thanks: 10
Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts
Rep Power: 3
MrPelicano is on a distinguished road
Re: Sunfast 3600 - JPK 1080

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I thought that you were going to comment about the performance of the Pogo 12.50 on the "Round the Island race". Download the excel file and have a look, it was just great, I mean in real time because regarding handicap the Pogo will never be a fast boat. Fast on the water, slow on the paper

Regards

Paulo
Well, I will comment on the Pogo 12.50. IRC 0 was an incredibly difficult division to compete in, with all the heavy hitters - Leopard, three TP 52s, and a bunch of Ker 40s (even a Santa Cruz SC37 - ill-suited to any race involving upwind sailing). So to finish 14th in division (out of 56) in a comfy performance "cruiser" is quite the accomplishment. If I'm blasting along in my Ker 40 and see a bunch of guys sipping wine right behind me, I'd be on my mobile calling Jason Ker for an explanation. Admittedly, Jinja is a British boat, so they were probably quaffing lager.

While the JPK 1010's swept IRC 2B, it makes me wonder about their rating, since that division was filled with J/109s and J/105s. Is it realistic that a JPK 1010 and a J/109 have the same rating? That surprises me, though I think credit is due to the J/109 Shadowfax, which finished 3rd in 2B, 4th in Green and 17th overall in IRC. Says a lot about that design and/or how well it was sailed. The J/105 Jelly Baby did pretty darn well themselves, correcting out to 36th overall in IRC, with a 4th in 2B and 7th in Green. You know they got their money's worth.

Speaking of the new Sunfast 36, while there's a lot to like about it as a race boat, I'm less-than-thrilled with the interior for performance cruising. It is well known by now I'm not a big fan of placing the heads in the bow - if I'm sailing shorthanded, and need to duck down for some quick relief at night, I don't want to have to make my way all the way to the bow, possibly in wet foulies, where I may have to endure a fair bit of bouncing about, and then make my way back through the cabin again. That's too much distance to cover. Also not impressed with the galley set-up. Yes, when you're racing all you need to be able to do is boil water for your dehydrated food and a cuppa. But for performance cruising, it is really inadequate and not easily adressed, given the presence of a second "seat" where a proper stove and cooler would ordinarily be.

I'll be heading up to New Bedford for the summer, in mid-July, and I'm thinking I need to get in touch with the J/109 owner I sailed with last summer and see if I can get out on his boat a bit more. The J/109 is still on my list and I may not have appreciated it enough when I first sailed on it. Need to re-think.
PCP and EricKLYC like this.
__________________
We deal in lead, friend.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #4225  
Old 06-04-2013
EricKLYC's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Posts: 468
Thanks: 16
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Rep Power: 4
EricKLYC is on a distinguished road
Re: Sunfast 3600 - JPK 1080

Thanks Edward, the L-shaped bulb keel would be a plus for the Sun Fast because a bulb is an option on the JPK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I thought that you were going to comment about the performance of the Pogo 12.50 on the "Round the Island race". Download the excel file and have a look, it was just great, I mean in real time because regarding handicap the Pogo will never be a fast boat. Fast on the water, slow on the paper
Of course Iím also happy to comment about the performance of a Pogo 12.50 in the Round the Island Race. Finishing 89th of almost 1.400 yachts in compensated time, not bad at all indeed.
Because as you very correctly stated, these boats are designed without any consideration for rating so they get the worst one can imagine and therefore become slow in the final ranking.
Since I only intend to race our Pogo from time to time in club races, we never bothered to register for an IRC rating. I only obtained a CR rating, a simple and low threshold system based on data input by the owner and without any measuring involved, intended for recreational racing. Last year our rating was the very highest in Belgium, even worse than an X-55 .
So these guys did a very good job at the Round the Island Race, knowing the course is in a loop and therefore also involves quite some upwind sailing. As we know, this is certainly not what these open designs like most. And letís not forget the 12.50 certainly isnít a class 40 but only a similar, strongly down tuned design intended for easy cruising.

I do admit we very much appreciate not really needing six crewmembers hiking on the toerail to make things work properly, Mr. Pelicano .
In our case itís often just the two of us having an Abbey beer with cheese cubes, on the lee cockpit bench .

Regarding upwind performance we are gaining experience and making small progress every time, step by step. Apart from mainsail trim, extremely sensitive with this fatheaded beast of 65 m2, we learned to dump the solent much earlier than we did before (under 20 knts TWS) and set the staysail even before taking the second reef in the main. Plus 3 degrees and around one knot is very rewarding, although we will of course never be able to engage a luffing match with e.g. a First or Xp 40 . But I bet the VMG will now be very well comparable, only the tracks on the plotter remain quite frustrating because of the extra miles covered (albeit at a higher speed).
And although we point a little higher and sail faster with the staysail, the hull also behaves significantly better, even against a chopped sea .
I donít quite understand why. Paulo?

Best regards,

Eric
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #4226  
Old 06-04-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,193
Thanks: 21
Thanked 100 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
It is a drag race in Leg 1 of the Solitaire de Figaro, with the top 15 boats all within 2 miles of the leader, Alexis Loison. MichDej is 0.1 of a mile from Loison, although the wind appears to have gone very, very light as the sun sets and they transition to the evening breeze. This is racing at the highest level, and it looks like it will be a dog fight all the way to the finish line in Porto. I can just imagine a tacking / gybing duel between 5-6 boats within the last few km. Awesome!

Le Figaro - La Solitaire
Yes and in what regards solo sailing there is nothing worst than light wind /changeable wind sailing. They cannot sleep without losing a lot of time since the sails require constant trimming and because weak winds are seldom regular, auto pilot is also a bad option. These guys are going to get very tired

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #4227  
Old 06-04-2013
MrPelicano's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Western Connecticut, USA
Posts: 720
Thanks: 10
Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts
Rep Power: 3
MrPelicano is on a distinguished road
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Yes and in what regards solo sailing there is nothing worst than light wind /changeable wind sailing. They cannot sleep without losing a lot of time since the sails require constant trimming and because weak winds are seldom regular, auto pilot is also a bad option. These guys are going to get very tired

Regards

Paulo
It's a nail-biter, as we say. Nicol and Rivet snuck by the fleet staying inshore, and the leaders fell quite a way back. If the breeze remains steady along the coast, it will be hard to catch the new leaders. Of course, the one constant in this race has been unsteady breeze...

MichDes must have fallen into a huge hole, because he has dropped from 2nd down to 30th, in just a few hours. That has to be painful... and I know it is from experience. Of course, if the wind fills in from offshore, all bets are off.

Getting back to the previous discussion about the JPK 1080 and Sunfast 3600, I think what most alarms me about what is going on in new boat development is how much prices have gone up. Both of those boats are going to be well over 150.000 Ä / $200,000, when you finally set off from the dock. I think my estimate for the Malango 999 was 145.000 Ä / $190,000 with sails, electronics, etc. (without VAT). Perhaps that's a bit high (or maybe not) but it certainly puts me off buying a new boat (a foolish idea regardless).
__________________
We deal in lead, friend.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #4228  
Old 06-04-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,193
Thanks: 21
Thanked 100 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
...

MichDes must have fallen into a huge hole, because he has dropped from 2nd down to 30th, in just a few hours. That has to be painful... and I know it is from experience. Of course, if the wind fills in from offshore, all bets are off.
That is what I was talking about: Most of those guys are incredibly good and that is not usual on any race where there are some few top sailors or crews and the rest are just average or sometimes not even that. On the Figaro main races if someone makes a small strategic error...he is done, at least for the leg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
.

Getting back to the previous discussion about the JPK 1080 and Sunfast 3600, I think what most alarms me about what is going on in new boat development is how much prices have gone up. Both of those boats are going to be well over 150.000 € / $200,000, when you finally set off from the dock. I think my estimate for the Malango 999 was 145.000 € / $190,000 with sails, electronics, etc. (without VAT). Perhaps that's a bit high (or maybe not) but it certainly puts me off buying a new boat (a foolish idea regardless).
Buying a new boat is never a good business in what regards money but there is noting as having a new boat

Regarding the J109 it is a great boat and hugely popular in Europe as you can see by the number of them racing on that race. I don't think it makes sense to buy a new J109. The top racers that had them are changing or have changed them by the J111 that is one of the new hot racers in Europe.

Regarding the JPK 10.10 rating, that is just a bit lower than the one of the J109 you have to take in consideration that the JPK 10.10 has slightly less that 33ft and that the J109 has over 35ft. Regarding the performance of the JPK you have to take in consideration that they were only two while there were 32 J109. The chances were that in all those boats someone makes a fantastic race.

Well, in all those boats the better has done 10m more than the slower JPK...and they were only two. Most of them lost between 30 to 45m to the JPK.

Probably the excellent results had to do not only with the very good overall performance of the JPK 10.10 but mostly to having enough wind to plan downwind and their ability to plan with less wind than almost all other cruiser racers. What this boat has unusual is the ability to do that without losing time upwind or in light wind situations and of course, the ability to be a top performer solo or with a crew, regatta or ocean racing, not to mention a nice interior.

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 06-04-2013 at 06:33 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #4229  
Old 06-04-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,193
Thanks: 21
Thanked 100 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Sunfast 3600 - JPK 1080

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
..
Of course I’m also happy to comment about the performance of a Pogo 12.50 in the Round the Island Race. Finishing 89th of almost 1.400 yachts in compensated time, not bad at all indeed.
Because as you very correctly stated, these boats are designed without any consideration for rating so they get the worst one can imagine and therefore become slow in the final ranking.
...
So these guys did a very good job at the Round the Island Race, knowing the course is in a loop and therefore also involves quite some upwind sailing. As we know, this is certainly not what these open designs like most. And let’s not forget the 12.50 certainly isn’t a class 40 but only a similar, strongly down tuned design intended for easy cruising.

....
Regarding upwind performance we are gaining experience and making small progress every time, step by step. Apart from mainsail trim, extremely sensitive with this fatheaded beast of 65 m2, we learned to dump the solent much earlier than we did before (under 20 knts TWS) and set the staysail even before taking the second reef in the main. Plus 3 degrees and around one knot is very rewarding, although we will of course never be able to engage a luffing match with e.g. a First or Xp 40 . But I bet the VMG will now be very well comparable, only the tracks on the plotter remain quite frustrating because of the extra miles covered (albeit at a higher speed).
And although we point a little higher and sail faster with the staysail, the hull also behaves significantly better, even against a chopped sea .
I don’t quite understand why. Paulo?
You can see that there was several First 40 on this race and the fastest made 6h 32m while the Pogo 12.50 made 6h 06m even if boat times are not absolutely comparable since the Pogo leaved half an hour early and we don't know if the conditions were similar and who benefit for a more favorable timing.

On the several Sydney Hobart a well sailed Pogo 40 class racer (the crew does a lot of races) never managed to to beat the faster First 40 and that Pogo was a racing one, with water ballasts, more sail and much faster than a cruising Pogo 12.50.

Why could the Pogo 12.50 be so fast here? Because this was not a mainly upwind racing like the Hobbart, because the wind was strong and allowed the Pogo to plan downwind (it needs a lot less wind than the First 40 to do that) but also because it was able to not lose too much time, if any, upwind regarding the First.

Why? Because as you can see on the movies there was wind but the water was almost flat. With no waves or small waves the Pogo, as you say, can go very fast upwind, on a more open course compensating the difference in pointing ability with a superior speed. But join to that 2 meters waves, or even less and we will see the First 40 going away upwind, while in really bad weather the difference will be big.

That has to do with wave drag. The Pogo is very beamy but has a very small wet surface...except with waves. When a wave passes the boat, it kind of involve the hull, all the hull and then all that beam counts for drag. On those conditions a narrow boat will do much better because the wave drag would be incomparably smaller almost as smaller as the difference in beam.

Chop is not the problem unless the waves are big. The boat has the power and small chop does not increase wave drag very differently in a First 40 or in a Pogo 12.50. If the waves are bigger, for instance those horrible 1.5m short period Mediterranean waves, the case will be different. Anyway in most circumstances a Pogo 12.50 will be a lot faster than a First 40 even if the rating is exaggerated for the boat performance and that's why nobody would race a Pogo to win on compensated, even with a class 40.

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 06-04-2013 at 07:15 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
The Following User Says Thank You to PCP For This Useful Post:
EricKLYC (06-04-2013)
  #4230  
Old 06-04-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,193
Thanks: 21
Thanked 100 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
...

Getting back to the previous discussion about the JPK 1080 and Sunfast 3600, I think what most alarms me about what is going on in new boat development is how much prices have gone up. Both of those boats are going to be well over 150.000 Ä / $200,000, when you finally set off from the dock. I think my estimate for the Malango 999 was 145.000 Ä / $190,000 with sails, electronics, etc. (without VAT). Perhaps that's a bit high (or maybe not) but it certainly puts me off buying a new boat (a foolish idea regardless).
Yes maybe, but a JPK 10.10 basic price is 118 000 euros and that includes about 20% VAT. Of course this is a basic boat so with good sails and all it will cost more but even so it is a lot of speed and winning potential for the money.

Anyway, compared with the prices for the Sunfast 3600 or the JPK 1080, a new J111 costs way more: 215 000 euros (with VAT without sails) and even the J109 was considerably more expensive.

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cruising sailboats for sale welch Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 10 04-25-2012 06:20 PM
THE Yacht Builder List T37Chef Boat Review and Purchase Forum 26 07-08-2011 06:51 AM
Noob wonderings and questions about sailing, life at sail and sailboats Vans General Discussion (sailing related) 49 06-20-2011 01:18 AM
A List of ALL sailboats made with layouts? Myblueheaven Boat Review and Purchase Forum 8 10-08-2010 12:32 PM
Failure to Navigate - interesting post on Panbo Blog & from the NewsReader Mass Bay Sailors 0 12-11-2006 07:15 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:22 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.