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  #431  
Old 11-25-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slap View Post
I've been going back through this thread. About the Presto 30:
I went on the Presto 30 at the Annapolis boat show. I stood at the galley, simulating cooking. For most of the time I could stand up straight through the main hatch. The boat had a dodger which didn't interfere with standing up in the galley and offered a fair bit of protection.

I was told that they were looking into offering a "pop-top" arrangement.
A pop-top arrangement would go beautifully with the boat style and with the kind of open air,free and adventurous use this boat was designed for. I would love to see this innovative boat became a commercial success but given the very traditional profile of the American sailor that is not probably going to happen. Anyway I am happy to see that it was not only me that have found that boat very interesting and that he was elected (by Sailing Magazine) as boat of the year.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 11-25-2010 at 06:12 AM.
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  #432  
Old 11-25-2010
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First 30 boat tests

Quote:
Originally Posted by nemier View Post
THIS IS THE THREAD OF THE YEAR FOR ME! THANKS PAULO.
But I'm getting bummed out. I'm currently up in the northern sector of the North Sea with a VERY slow internet connection...I can't watch the video's. Pictures are good though!
Thanks Nemier







Voiles et Voiliers : Essais et comparatifs - Video voile, first 30 Bénéteau*: bande annonce de l'essai complet




Continuing that second opinion about the boats posted on this thread, let's see what others say about the the new First30.

The First 30 is very different, not surprising since it is the brainchild of innovative designer Juan K, who seems to be very hot right now, his boats are winning all over the place. We were told by others who had seen it that we should be prepared to be both wowed and surprised. Wowed by how good it was, and surprised by how it differed from the norm. They were correct.

Upon walking up to the boat you realize that this is one very large boat for its length, but that really it is like two boats in one. Standing at the mast and looking forward, it looks like a 30 footer at most, since the forward part of the boat is narrow. But turn around and look aft and you would think you are on a boat ten feet longer because it is so wide.
....

First, the boat is big and behaves like a bigger boat under sail or power. The cockpit is enormous. The deck hardware is excellent. The engine is really smooth and quiet, amazingly so. There are plenty of sail controls and two come to mind as being especially nice. The jib in-haulers are easily adjustable from the weather side, and the Harken adjustable jib cars could be readily moved with the standard tackles even in the 20 knots of air we had. Winches were plenty big. I was worried about the short tiller, but the boat is so easily balanced that we had plenty of mechanical advantage and you can steer from several different positions. ...

Before we talk about sailing the boat we'll mention the interior, which was another pleasant surprise. Very nicely finished, roomier than expected, and with more headroom than expected. This boat has a very usable cabin, galley, head and sleeping areas, with good ventilation as well. ... What we have is a boat that can be enjoyed for multiple uses, and that also makes for better resale value down the road.

As nice as the boat is on deck and below, and as nicely fitted-out as it is, the real purpose of the First 30 is to go sailing. We were hoping that over the course of the day we might have some varying conditions so we could test the boat over a range of wind. What we got was 15-20 knots of fairly steady strong breeze all day in advance of a front. T... 99% of the time we sailed the boat is lots of wind. And that is the good news, the First 30 was a blast to sail in that stuff.

... I am accustomed to the helm really loading up on boats with a wide transom, but on the First 30 the helm was still very nice when heeled. When you crack off and head downwind the wide aft section is now in the water, and so are both rudders. Loads of stability and steering control on this point of sail. I should also add that the boat has a hard chine that also improves stability.

The First 30 is designed to be sailed heeled when going upwind, and it will be fastest when doing so. However, you can reef the boat and sail with less heel and it balances really well. In the morning we went out with full main and jib in 20 knots of air. While the boat handles it, it was more comfortable later in the day when we rolled up part of the jib and reefed the main. The speed seemed to be at least as good, and the boat just loved it. Another surprise was how well the boat handled the chop, which grew larger and steeper as the day wore on. We never once felt the boat slap or pound, which seems crazy considering the hull shape, but the design of the plumb bow is different from what you have seen before. Juan K obviously knows a thing or two about making a boat go through waves. We had a blast sailing the boat and we hated to come in and rush back to the airport.

The overall impression of sailing the boat in breeze is that it feels bigger than it is, very solid, very easily controlled, and fun to sail. We only got the spinnaker up for maybe 10 minutes because we had to meet someone at the dock, but it was a really fun ride (before we lost one of the sheets and had to take it down).


Scuttlebutt - Sailing Forum: INDUSTRY NEWS: Boats: Beneteau First 30

Feedback from initial sea trials was highly positive from those involved, and Ingouf, although understandably partial, is excited with what they’ve come up with. “It’s a boat that’s well balanced,” he says. “You never have the feeling you’re losing control. It’s light, balanced and stiff.”

In winds up to 20 knots, he says, they were still using the entire sailplan. “What’s really impressed me is the way it goes through the chop. It doesn’t pitch at all.”


Boat Review: The Beneteau First 30 Goes Modern | Sailing World

The new First 30 is a bold choice for one of the largest sailboat builders in the world. An entirely new design by Juan Kouyoumdjian (with technical input from double Vendee Globe winner Michel Desjoyeaux), it features twin rudders, torpedo keel, full-width traveller and no backstay.

As the rockstar designer du jour, getting Juan K to take on a moderately priced 30-foot sailboat is a major coup. (for those who don’t know, Juan K is perhaps best known as the designer of the 2005 Volvo 70 winners, ABN Amro 1 and 2. Then he designed the winner of the 2008 – 2009 Volvo Ocean Race, Ericsson 4.)

Juan’s influence is heavily felt on this boat, working within the parameters set by Beneteau. You see it in the shape of the hull, with the short, fixed bowsprit, wide hips and blunt bow. The aggressive rig. The full-width traveller in the stern, and gross and fine-tune controls on the mainsheet. The foot-braces on the deck. The First 30 is optimised for IRC racing, with a choice of aluminum or carbon rigs, at least in Europe.

.. this is a fast boat. Torpedo keel, wide stern designed for surfing, and aggressive rig (SA/D ratios of around 25). We’ll have to see how the rating turns out (preliminary IRC is 1.001, or about 92 PHRF), but overall, the boat promises to be a fantastic downwind ride, while being fast enough upwind for you to enjoy it. I’d expect this to be a good choice in any venue which gets 15 to 20 knots regularly due to its surfing potential.

I really like the twin rudders – these add great control while being heeled over, while also eliminating vibration from the prop wash on a traditional, single rudder. Of course, you can’t direct the thrust of the 20 horsepower saildrive in the same way, but with a boat of this small size, you have pretty good control manuevering. The twin rudders also help the boat maneuver under sail.

The boat sails well, too. In our 6 to 10 knots, both uphill and downhill, it almost sailed itself. Even when relatively powered up with a big asym chute, you could let go of the beefy tiller and it would continue on its own.

The sail control systems are fantastic. Really love the traveller – full width (and I do mean full – check out those photos) – and with easy-to-use control lines. No backstay at all – use the traveller, the mainsheet, vang sheeting, and, ultimately, a reef if it is over 20. Low-profile roller furler on the jib is another nice touch – lets you put a little more sail area on it down low.

... the sailing setup is one of the best I’ve seen.

What about cruising? ... This boat has a real interior. The overall design down below is well executed. This is a good layout. Aft head, forward main cabin, quarterberth for kids or race crew. It works. To have a full navigation station, forward stateroom with standing room and closing doors, and kitchen on a 30 foot race boat is impressive. Six feet of head room, including in the head / shower. And there is good storage in the starboard quarter due to the wide beam. Remarkable.
....
For cruising, the sail controls actually work pretty well too. There is a full six feet of headroom in the cockpit under the boom – an important safety issue. No backstays simplifies the controls. The big cockpit is comfortable for guests, with wide sitting area for the driver or for lounging in the cockpit. No traveller to step over, either. ....
....

Fuel and water will be limited, but this isn’t a boat you’re likely to sail across an ocean.

Conclusions
This is an impressive boat. The more you look at it, the more you realize the design team really put a lot of effort into getting the systems right for sailors. Go though the Pro list – they nailed all the key sail handling systems. On the down side, this is a production boat built to a price point. You see that down below with cabinetry and a look and feel which is on par, but not better than the typical Beneteau offering. This is a good looking interior, but not one built with a price-no-object ethos.

In the end, it is all about value. With a base price of $100,000, plus an extra $25k for sails and electronics, this is a lot of bang for your buck. You can’t get a good 10-year-old J/105 for that. Compare to the Jenneau SunFast (PHRF around 81, at $182,000 sailaway), and the J/95 (PHRF 109, at $179,000 with the carbon rig, including $20k of sails, electronics and delivery fees). In the end, you could take this boat out for the weekend series with the race crew, and then cruise with a family for a week.


Beneteau First 30 Review | North American Sailor

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 11:16 AM.
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  #433  
Old 11-26-2010
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Compare Polar Diagram

Hi guys!
So regarding such fast boats I have another question:
I currently wonder about polar diagrams and the difference between such a boat with a wide, flat stern like a first 30 or a pogo and a more conventional hull shape.
It's always said that boats like a Pogo are fast downwind but rather slow when sailing close to the wind.

Now, when comparing the polar diagrams of a Pogo 12.50 and a First 40 I see that the Pogo seems to be even faster close to the wind.
So do I understand the attached data correctly? And is such data usually trustworthy or in many cases exaggerated?
In the real life the First 40 is may be faster in many situations, or not?

Ulf

See Pogo 12.50 on the top and First 40 below.
Attached Thumbnails
Interesting Sailboats-bildschirmfoto-2010-11-26-um-20.18.09.jpg   Interesting Sailboats-bildschirmfoto-2010-11-26-um-20.02.58.jpg  

Last edited by myocean; 11-26-2010 at 05:00 PM.
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  #434  
Old 11-26-2010
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Pogo 12.50, Opium 39, Dufour 40e - Match with movie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by myocean View Post
Hi guys!
...
It's always said that boats like a Pogo are fast downwind but rather slow when sailing close to the wind.

Now, when comparing the polar diagrams of a Pogo 12.50 and a First 40 I see that the Pogo seems to be even faster close to the wind.
So do I understand the attached data correctly? And is such data usually trustworthy or in many cases exaggerated?
In the real life the First 40 is may be faster in many situations, or not?

Ulf

....
Who says that?

Regarding the polars they consider flat water. With waves, probably the First will drag less water and certainly will be more comfortable , but I doubt that it will be faster, at least with all the winds. Anyway the difference will not be big.

You should read this boat test:


They have made a comparison between a Dufour 40e, an Opium 39 and a Pogo 40 cruising (12.50 prototype). The wind was a good force 5 and the sea had short waves. Close to the wind the speed were the same (7.5), with the Opium (with a worst sail, the original was stolen) making less 5º to the true wind.

They have said that the Dufour is a little better with winds lighter than 20K and the Pogo a bit better over 20k. The Dufour is more comfortable and passes better the short waves, the Pogo passes in power (I believe that is why he needs more wind to be faster than the Dufour).

Downwind the Pogo rules with 12k with the other boats making 8/9K. But regarding VMG dead downwind the VMG of the Dufour with spinnaker is about the same was the one of the Pogo with geenaker.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 11:21 AM.
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  #435  
Old 12-04-2010
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Hi Paulo!
Sorry, had no time the recent days. The comparison of this three boats is very interesting!
As said before I am thinking about what is the right boat for me when aiming for long haul cruising with kids but still somehow sportive. So a First 30 is too small but I really like it to see that even Beneteau is now building boats with some design elements from the open class boats.

By the way: I am sure there has been a period of time when you had a closer look at multihulls. What was your main conclusion about such boats? (E.e from Outremer)
Ulf
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  #436  
Old 12-04-2010
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Paulo,
I'm also considering a large cat right now, so would be very interested to hear what you have to say about any catamaran.
Eagerly waiting...!
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  #437  
Old 12-04-2010
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Big cruising multihulls.

Yes you are right, I have looked at cats but I lost interest. Not enough money

For being seaworthy enough to be ocean capable they have to be big (45ft). I mean there are some smaller cats that are seaworthy but they carry small rigs and they are not fast. Resuming, they are out of my budget. If I remember correctly interesting boats start at 600 000€.

Most cats (mainly the big production French ones) are designed to be at anchor at the marina or for coastal cruising. They have big cabins that will got plenty of wind, drift a lot and go badly close to the wind.

There are some French ones, like the Sig 45 (and others), some South African like the Gunboats and some from New-Zealand and Australia that are built with other philosophy and I like those a lot, even if they have to be sailed with more care than you sail an oceangoing monohull. But as I have said, these ones are not only out of my budget as they limit the places I can visit. I mean, lot's of old ports and small marinas in Europe just don't have the place for cats, and when they have you pay double price...and here marinas are expensive. But if you plan to sail out of Europe in remote and nice places and have the money for it, they are a good option.

High Performance Multihull Sailing Yachts, Gunboat Luxury Catamarans
High performance yachts
Fusion Catamarans - Kit Catamarans, Sail Catamarans, Power Catamarans
Catamaran Outremer - Les catamarans pour le Grand Voyage
TOURNIER MARINE - Catamarans - Multicoques - Trimarans - Freydis - Location - Carbon line

I have looked with more interest to trimarans because those are more forgiving and you can have a smaller and fast one(comparing with cats) with oceangoing potential. Smaller means less expensive and some can fold their arms and fit in a monohull place in a marina, but in the end the problem is the same: Too expensive and I believe that you would find these ones too small for you. Contrary to cats, a Trimaran is smaller than a comparable sized monohull, with exception from the one that Dan have, but they don't make that one bigger enough for mine or your needs.

TOURNIER MARINE - Catamarans - Multicoques - Trimarans - Freydis - Location - Carbon line
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Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 11:22 AM.
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  #438  
Old 12-04-2010
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OK, got it.
I've been looking around for over a year and I had more or less come to the same conclusion. But still looking, always looking. When our boat sells - hopefully some time next year, I'll be able to get much more serious. The B F30, is a personal choice (for me) if my wife and I do not make it cruising, for whatever reason. Cheers.
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  #439  
Old 12-04-2010
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Xc 38

New Xp 38 on the way. This is a very beautiful boat and I will bet that it is going to be a great boat. I hate not to have money to buy one









"The eagerly anticipated Xp 38 is set to debut late summer 2011.
Following on from the Xp 44, the Xp 38 will encompass the same ground-breaking performance characteristics whilst maintaining the cruising qualities X-Yachts customers have grown to expect.

The new Xp 38 is a resized model of the Xp 44 which is still under development and yet sold in more than 20 copies - 5 months before planned launch.

The Xp range will be built with the use of advanced technology and can be characterized as trendsetting in the yachting industry.

Performance
The new Xp 38 has been developed utilizing the latest version of a Velocity Prediction Program to create a hull and rig package with a high ballast to weight ratio that offers high stability under a generous sail plan.

Together with her sail-handling design, the Xp 38’s performance may be easily enjoyed by a full race crew or whilst sailing short-handed.

Safety and Speed
X-Yachts’ world-class build quality is taken to a new level in the Xp models, using the latest epoxy E-Glass vacuum infusion process for maximum strength, stiffness and durability.
The famous X-Yachts steel frame structure has also been developed, with the new Xp designs featuring a carbon/composite keel grillage that ensures hull impact resilience and rig stability for safety and longevity.
....

Hull length 11.58m 37.99ft LWL 10.36m 33.99ft Beam 3.70m 12.14ft
Draft - standard 2.10m 6.89ft Draft - deep 2.40m 7.87ft
Ballast - standard 2,760kg 6,085lbs Displacement - light 6,410kg 14,131lbs
Engine diesel 29.0HP Water tank standard 260 Ltr 68.8 Gal
Fuel tank standard 150 Ltr 39.6 Gal
SAIL AREAS standard (Preliminary) Mainsail (Alloy Rig) 46.2m2 497.0ft2
Mainsail (Carbon Rig) 48.0 m2 517.0ft2 Genoa · 106% 39.5m2 393.0ft2
Spinnaker - All purpose 130m2 1399ft2

The first series of 10 units are being offered for an introduction price of € 217,500 (ex VAT)

Xp 38

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 11:23 AM.
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  #440  
Old 12-05-2010
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Nice.... shame about the price! (guessing that's not the Carbon rig?)

I like:
Robust 'sprit' (although it's going to 'up' the moorage bill)
Clean deck layout with 'german' sheeting
Their resistance to joining the 'cats eyes' trend for the portlights, and not going with an 'arch'.

I've always liked the look of Xyachts' use of multiple boot stripes - it's a great way to 'visibly' lower freeboard. Hanses could benefit from that treatment.
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