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  #4501  
Old 09-03-2013
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Re: oceanis 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Humm, Oceanis are on the low end of ballast ratio. As I said, with a bigger rig, a boat that would be fast in all conditions except upwind with weather where the ballast ratio is fundamental to give power to the boat to go against waves, specially a fat one like the new 38.

Also a tricky boat to sail (with a bigger rig), with that huge form stability giving power to the boat...but on a gust, with the boat lying down, not much RM to bring it back.

That is not by mistake that the boat has that rig and sail area. A substantially bigger one would increase the possibility of knock down... and the boat with a not famous final stability (low B/D ratio) would not be properly brilliant recovering from one of those figures.

Check it out the B/D ratio in relation with draft from the Pogo or the Opium (same kind of hull) and you will see the difference.

Hanse that is also using that king of hulls has a much more substantial B/D ratio, at least on the 40fter.

Regards

Paulo
29% is not that bad comparing to others in that price range, and with additional support from hull beam and shape and control from double rudders. I think it could have a bigger rig. On my old Oceanis 40 I lowered the boom with 20 cm and made new, maximized sails. Did not notice any bigger problems with that, and I sailed the boat in conditions that the typical Oceanis customer do not go out in, except too wide stern for a single rudder. And it had from the start a similar ballast ratio, 1,2 m higher mast, lower draft and narrower beam without chines. And 12 sqm more sail area (and I had even more).

regards
Anders
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  #4502  
Old 09-04-2013
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Re: Dragonfly 32

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Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
Nice, soon SWE11 Opium 39 and SWE11 Dragonfly 32 are making swedish waters unsafe for others

By the way Paulo, the Anders B you discussed kiel studies with in the beginning of pages 400 was not me.

Regards,
Anders
I am the Anders B you discussed keels with
/ Anders B sailing monohull Hansson 31
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  #4503  
Old 09-04-2013
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Re: Aspect 40

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Originally Posted by Mr W View Post
Now this is really creapy! I was actually going to post about the B&R 38 a few days ago, but I just haven´t gotten around to post about it yet!

In the mid 90s this boat was way ahead of it´s time in many perspectives and has some similarities with some of the modern boats discussed here. The guy who owns this boat (which is the only one built) is Jimmy, who also owns Airbender, an Admiralty 30 which I think you posted a video of earlier (also video from hamnen). He bought the B&R for this season and has been upgrading it during the winter.

This boat is very fast, it weighs only 3,300kg (was actually supposed to weigh 2,600kg), so the Aspect 40 has 33% more weight.

They were keeping up with the Aspect during this test sail with about 7,5 knots boatspeed upwind. They also did some downwind sailing and they were doing about the same speed as the Aspect, up to 11 knots in these light conditions. I guess it´s fair to say that both boats are fast!

In the first regatta of the year last weekend, both these boats attended. The Aspect actually beat the B&R with 02h13m18s vs 02h22m24s (not corrected) (http://lss.a.se/bodySidor/04_kappseg...asser_2012.pdf, see start 6).

As for being as wide as the JPK (almost), that probably only applies to maximum beam. The B&R is only 2,26m at the waterline:


If I think of some more well designed swedish boats, I will try to post about them before you do

Kind regards,
Mr W
Earlier in this thread the Swedish Pac-Man boat, which was designed and sold very probably before its time, was discussed. It won recently a big sail competition in Sweden, Hyundai Cup in Nynäshamn near Stockholm, before an Arcona 430 and Aspect 40 which created a heated discussion regarding given handicap . it was though good conditions with a lot of wind for the bigger boats and possible to do the down wind leg with gennaker.

First price a brand new Hyundai I20 car - rather nice.

https://hyundaicup.solidtango.com/

Regards,
Anders
PCP likes this.

Last edited by JAndersB; 09-04-2013 at 01:08 PM.
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  #4504  
Old 09-04-2013
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Rm 1060

RM 1060 has been discussed earlier, and also with some remarks that it is not as fast as it looks. Noted that on home page they qoute 4400 kg and in their manual for the boat says 5753 kg lightship and with 1790/2020 for the keels. Big difference but at the same time perhaps more realistic. Or typo?

Regards,
Anders
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  #4505  
Old 09-04-2013
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Anders

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anders B View Post
I am the Anders B you discussed keels with
/ Anders B sailing monohull Hansson 31
Nice to have several Anders aboard this thread. Both are great contributors.

Regards

Paulo
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  #4506  
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Re: Rm 1060

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
RM 1060 has been discussed earlier, and also with some remarks that it is not as fast as it looks. Noted that on home page they qoute 4400 kg and in their manual for the boat says 5753 kg lightship and with 1790/2020 for the keels. Big difference but at the same time perhaps more realistic. Or typo?

Regards,
Anders
The RM 1060 is a great cruising boat and a fast one. When the boat was announced there were some that were hoping for a boat as fast as a Pogo 10.50 or a boat for winning a Transquadra...They were wrong, this is a fast boat but more heavy and slow than a Pogo 10.50, a more versatile cruiser with a big voyage potential.

Maybe that difference in the keels weight has to do with the twin keel version and the mono keel version?

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  #4507  
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Re: Rm 1060

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The RM 1060 is a great cruising boat and a fast one. When the boat was announced there were some that were hoping for a boat as fast as a Pogo 10.50 or a boat for winning a Transquadra...They were wrong, this is a fast boat but more heavy and slow than a Pogo 10.50, a more versatile cruiser with a big voyage potential.

Maybe that difference in the keels weight has to do with the twin keel version and the mono keel version?

Yes, that is correct regarding keels but total weight 5730 versus 4400 kg??

Regards,
Anders
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  #4508  
Old 09-05-2013
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The weight of a sailboat

is a very complicated affair. First you have the weight calculated by the boat designer that is very rarely the weight of boat, specially if it is a production boat. Manufacturers have normally a long experience in building and don't follow strictly the designers scantlings if they consider them to be lower than their own demands. I am not making up this was said to me to a director of a main yacht builder.

I remember a case with a Mach Bavaria 42 regarding keels (one fell off). They never had problems with keels but the Match line was a new one, a more sportive one and they followed the designer specifications and it went wrong.

That difference in weight can be the difference between the designer weight calculation and the weight of the real boat.

Regarding the real weight there are also several weights and regarding minimum weight two that make some difference: The weight of boat empty and the weight of the boat in minimum sailing condition.

Maybe the lower weight is the designer's previewed weight and the bigger one the weight of the boat in minimum sailing condition that in the end is the one that matters, that and the one of the max load condition.

Regards

Paulo
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  #4509  
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Rich guys having fun sailing

them and the paid big crews LOL





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  #4510  
Old 09-05-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

It is NOT complicated.
Either the designer got his weight estimate right or he got it wrong.
SIMPLE!

A good designer will look at three weghts. I know. I do this.

Weight one will be the weight "out of the box" or as the boat is delivered with no gear and no liquids aboard.

Weight two will be ( in my office) the weight of the boat in an average loaded condition, i.e. as you might find it any given weekend during the sailing season. This will include some gear, some crews affects, full sail inventory and some liquids.

Weight three will be the loaded condition, i.e. full crew weight with their gear, full tanks and full food and beverages, the way you might find the boat ready for a three week cruise.

I choose to design the boat to weight two, the typical way you will find the boat duruing the sailing season. I call this the "displacement". For me it seems representative and accurate.

Not hard.
Not complicated.
Common sense.
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