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  #4511  
Old 09-06-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

In their ship manual they qoute 5730 kg leg'e (lightship), on the web 4400 kg and now in brochure 4600 kg.

Regards,
Anders
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  #4512  
Old 09-06-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

"Lightship" is only useful to the designer and builder to check and see if their target weights are on. The final displ will vary with each owner and the gear he carries. The builder can only guess at that. You would have to get actual freeboards and a Pounds per inch immers ( or Euro equiv) to figure out the final displ. If you gave freeboards to the designer he could give you a very accurate displ.
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  #4513  
Old 09-06-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
In their ship manual they qoute 5730 kg leg'e (lightship), on the web 4400 kg and now in brochure 4600 kg.

Regards,
Anders
In what language? I bet it is a translation error and that is the Minimum sailing condition, that is the one that makes sense to be on a Ship Manual.

Regards

Paulo
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  #4514  
Old 09-06-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
It is NOT complicated.
Either the designer got his weight estimate right or he got it wrong.
SIMPLE!

A good designer will look at three weghts. I know. I do this.

Weight one will be the weight "out of the box" or as the boat is delivered with no gear and no liquids aboard.

Weight two will be ( in my office) the weight of the boat in an average loaded condition, i.e. as you might find it any given weekend during the sailing season. This will include some gear, some crews affects, full sail inventory and some liquids.

Weight three will be the loaded condition, i.e. full crew weight with their gear, full tanks and full food and beverages, the way you might find the boat ready for a three week cruise.

I choose to design the boat to weight two, the typical way you will find the boat duruing the sailing season. I call this the "displacement". For me it seems representative and accurate.

Not hard.
Not complicated.
Common sense.
You misunderstood what I said. What is complicated is not the different basic weights of a boat but to know to what weight the builder is referring when they give the boat displacement (they don't say what type of weight they are talking about). As Anders pointed out regarding the RM 1060 that is quite common several weights being given by the same builder in different occasions. With the Bavaria 36 (2003 model) they started given 4.600kg then 5.600kg and in some cases 6000kg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
"Lightship" is only useful to the designer and builder to check and see if their target weights are on. The final displ will vary with each owner and the gear he carries. The builder can only guess at that. You would have to get actual freeboards and a Pounds per inch immers ( or Euro equiv) to figure out the final displ. If you gave freeboards to the designer he could give you a very accurate displ.
Given all these confusions and since weight is an important promotional advertiser and Brands are interested in given to the public the lowest possible weight the RCD stipulated a standardized type of weight that is called Minimum sailing condition (MSC) that should be measured the same way in all boats, including the same percentage of fuel and water, sails,oil and everything the boat needs to sail.

The problem is that even if the correct MSC as the MLD are on the certification papers the builder is not obliged to give the MsC has the weight of the boat on the promotional papers and many refer the lightship condition or even the designer estimated weight.

That's what I mean with complicated, not the different weights but to know of what weight they are talking about.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 09-06-2013 at 03:27 PM.
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  #4515  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
In what language? I bet it is a translation error and that is the Minimum sailing condition, that is the one that makes sense to be on a Ship Manual.

Regards

Paulo
The manual was in french and it said as I wrote xxxx kg leg'e which google translate to lightship.

Regards,
Anders
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo:
I think in many cases they just don't know.

I deal with this all the time. I have written reviews of other designs for 35 years in SAILING magazine. I am finding, especially with Euro boats that I may get as many as three different displacements in one promo package. Today I did my reviews. All three design are built in Europe. All three list a "lightship" displ. This is useless. The real boat will never weight that. But it's in the builder's best interest to promote a lighter boat, all the numkbers look better. So people like you and me are left to guess what the real, equipped and ready to sail boat truly weighs. As I said the only way to find out is to work backwards from freeboards providing the designer will be honest with you and provide you with the data. Most designers will. We want to know.

I think in some cases the builder makes changes to the design specs that add weight. The designer is not always informed of these changes. He finds out later. On a custom project we try to weigh the boat at various stages of construction. This is not always practical with big boats. On a project like FRANCIS LEE, the SLIVER, we have been weighing the boat as we go. But we won't know until the boat is sailing what the real world weight will be. We do know we are very close to the estimated weight study.

I appreciate you explaining this to me but I have been doing it professionally for the past 45 years. I think I have a pretty good handle on it by now. Promoting bogus boat weights does no one any good.
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Last edited by bobperry; 09-06-2013 at 05:19 PM.
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  #4517  
Old 09-06-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

THe new Jeanneau SF3600 is in the water, not sure if it has sailed as of yet, and have seen some new models graphics of the 64'?!?!?!?! boat coming out.....now I need to go back and remember what length the new boats.....oh well, life goes on!

Marty
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  #4518  
Old 09-07-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

New Luffe 3.6: Selvstyrer og kortplotter styres fra rorpind på ny Luffe 3.6 - minbaad.dk

And

- LUFFE YACHTS -

Saw her in real life, she's stunning and should sail like a dream as the other Luffe's do.
And even better craftmanship than Najad, HR, Malö etc.
PCP and Faster like this.
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  #4519  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

I was in Kolding port last weekend and saw it live. She looked much fatter than all other Luffe boats may be because she she has very small wetted surface with high boards to gain good standing height inside. Craftmanship like you said - to the best. I got in love with the tiller. I am planning to have a test sail at the end of the month of both Luffe 37.09 and the new Luffe 3.6 to get the difference in sailing. Otherwise inside the difference is obvious.
Rumen
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  #4520  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
You misunderstood what I said. What is complicated is not the different basic weights of a boat but to know to what weight the builder is referring when they give the boat displacement (they don't say what type of weight they are talking about). As Anders pointed out regarding the RM 1060 that is quite common several weights being given by the same builder in different occasions. With the Bavaria 36 (2003 model) they started given 4.600kg then 5.600kg and in some cases 6000kg.



Given all these confusions and since weight is an important promotional advertiser and Brands are interested in given to the public the lowest possible weight the RCD stipulated a standardized type of weight that is called Minimum sailing condition (MSC) that should be measured the same way in all boats, including the same percentage of fuel and water, sails,oil and everything the boat needs to sail.

The problem is that even if the correct MSC as the MLD are on the certification papers the builder is not obliged to give the MsC has the weight of the boat on the promotional papers and many refer the lightship condition or even the designer estimated weight.

That's what I mean with complicated, not the different weights but to know of what weight they are talking about.

Regards

Paulo
Can we start a "not complicated" short discussion of using B/D as an indicator of stability, to get THAT out of the way once and for all as well?
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