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  #4561  
Old 09-12-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
J/122 looks nice but too long and too deep

Opium 39 lovely but too wide as per above. And with 3 double cabins rather big.

Olsen 38 was a very nice boat, mad by Olsen Yacht in Denmark. Basically it should qualify in this thread because up till today I have not been able to find an as good performance deck saloon in the 35-39 feet bracket by far. Only Luffe 43 DS is close (and a copy in my mind). And I have checked many. Mine this was destroyed by fire in 2007, hence the Oceanis 40 in a hurry. Only 12 has been made and the latest 2007 I think. Very nice sailors cockpit, hardly wisible deck saloon, wacuum glued teak deck, lots of smart finesses, like a performance version of the Southerly. They can still make them bout out of the mentioned budget.

Regards,
Anders

Funny you have talked about the Luffe 43. I visited the shipyard years ago and I was just interested in that boat, well not in that boat but on a modern version. The Luffe 40.04 was just being lunched and I was waiting for a 43 along the same lines. Oluf had made instead a beautiful new 45 and now it modernized the 37, I guess the next one will be the 43. Things happen more slowly on traditional semi custom boats...I went to visit the shipyard maybe 7 years ago?

Along this discussion about boats we do no have talked much about weight but weight is important since it is multiplied by the to GZ give the total stability of the boat (the surface under the positive part of the RM curve). I was looking for a boat with 7/8T with a very good GZ curve. A very light boat can go fast but will not give the solidity and the motion of a heavier boat. This is true also for more heavier boats. A 40ft HR with 11T will be more steady and easier to sail than a more sportive boat...but then it will not sail well in lighter winds or be fast enough in medium winds or will point higher enough, I mean for my taste.

Regarding your question on a previous post regarding sailing and fuel, I can talk about my experience with the Comet 41 s. Many think that a big fuel tankage is a necessity. I am sailing extensively the boat on Greece, doing an average of 25/30Nm a day and I refueled two days ago: 74 liters on a 150L tank. The last time I put diesel (also half a tank) was a month ago. Most of the diesel is used to charge batteries. On the last 3 months I have recharged the batteries on a marina 3 times, including today. I have a relatively big water tank for a performance boat (400L) and that will last only (without being too careful) 15 days (with two aboard).

So the 150L diesel tank that would look too small for many is enough for a month while the bigger water tank is only good for 15 days.

An advantage of performance boats with a big stability is that they can take rough weather with little sail. Today I sailed on a good force 6/7 and crossed ways with a new 43745 Halberg Rassy. We both were having a great sailing day and the guys from the HR waved a lot to us (and we replied). Both boats were sailing upwind on different taks (I would say I was closer to the wind), they were making probably 7/7.5K and I was making 7.5/8.0. They had a furled genoa (less then mine) and a main on the first reef. I was sailing only with the genoa reefed to the size a bit bigger than a jib.

So, smaller sails make it more manageable but on heavy gusting (that you find often near the shore) lighter boats can have very fast reactions and need a sail to let go fast and that's not very easy with small crews or solo.

I would say I prefer a mid term and that's why I was looking for the Luffe 43 that even if bigger, because it is narrower as about the same weight and overall stability of my boat.

To make it short, if a boat is very light or narrow, I would prefer a bigger boat, if a boat is heavier and has an average beam, than I would take a smaller one (both with about the same weight and interior space). But that, off course, it is just my personal preference and should not be looked as a rule by nobody. There are tastes for all types of boats, even steel, very slow ones (at least with light winds).

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 09-12-2013 at 05:02 PM.
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  #4562  
Old 09-12-2013
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americas'cup

A new victory for NZ that outsailed Oracle. Again they were ahead and made an error that allowed NZ the victory. 4-1, one to go for the NZ final victory.


Maybe today?

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  #4563  
Old 09-12-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Thanks Paulo,
I understand your reasoning and choise. Sounds like a nice day on the water. I am writing this from the saloon of the Opium. Tomorrow we will sail out for a week again.

Up here almost all marinas charge a lot more for boats over 12 m and it is very hard to find boxes over 4 m wide. Furthermore we often moore bow to or side to cliffs in the archipelago, which can be a challenge handling wise especially if you get a wind shift during the night. Futhermore there is the question of beeing able to tack and dock the boat single handed. Therefore I put in the limit of 35-38 feet

So what about these (french) racer cruisers at around 35 feet? Archambault A35, JKP 10.80 and so forth. Very light and with modern hulls for easy sailing short handed. Will they be too light and cramped for the described scenario? They seem to take off but I guess in cruising mode that might change rapidly?

Regards,
Anders
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  #4564  
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Re: interesting perfromance cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
Hi all,

The back ground of a typical customer, at least up here. This size class I think is the mostly sold today in the Nordic countries:
Someone interested in a boat around 35-38 foot (absolutely not over 12 m), absolutely under 3,99 m wide, preferably 3,75 m.
Anders
With this preferable beam how could any of the Luffes fit in this taste trend? Are they bound to become extinct or as you said in a previous post they will count on a fewer remaining nostalgic customers.
Do you think that the wider beam trend in the recent decades has something to do (apart from the accommodations benefits) with lack of wish to sail to windward instead of motoring? Paulo I would appreciate your input on that. Do majority of cruisers in the Med use their engine instead of beating?

P.S. When I visited both Kolding marinas on that weekend (and also some others) it struck me: 1. 90% were sailboats (unlike in my region, the Black Sea and some parts of the Med I have visited, where motorboats prevail); 2. The average size was even less than the one you indicated (in my region I believe the average counts to 39-43 feet).; 3. I guess the average beam was 3.00 (if I am not mistaken) much less than the coveted one in your opinion. Well, it is also true that in the few marinas I visited in Jurland, Denmark, most of the boats were 10or much more years old,therefore no modern designs were on the float.
Rumen
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  #4565  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
Thanks Paulo,
I understand your reasoning and choise. Sounds like a nice day on the water. I am writing this from the saloon of the Opium. Tomorrow we will sail out for a week again.

Up here almost all marinas charge a lot more for boats over 12 m and it is very hard to find boxes over 4 m wide. Furthermore we often moore bow to or side to cliffs in the archipelago, which can be a challenge handling wise especially if you get a wind shift during the night. Futhermore there is the question of beeing able to tack and dock the boat single handed. Therefore I put in the limit of 35-38 feet

So what about these (french) racer cruisers at around 35 feet? Archambault A35, JKP 10.80 and so forth. Very light and with modern hulls for easy sailing short handed. Will they be too light and cramped for the described scenario? They seem to take off but I guess in cruising mode that might change rapidly?

Regards,
Anders
Regarding JPK I think the boat you should look at is the 38:Beam 3.99m, 5T of weight and about the same ballast (a bit more) and draft of the Opium 39 that weights 1,5T more. That would make for a stiffer boat at least upwind. Besides JPK is an incredible guy, a true sailor with a huge solo experience (racing) that will make the boat the way you want it and can give you a lot of intelligent suggestions. Yes I visited also the shipyard and was fascinated with JPK...with him almost all is possible and not for a lot of money.

Regarding the boats you mention probably the boat I was looking at at the time is a better option for cruising, I mean the JPK 110 that is still in production:

JPK

Beam 3.80m, Draft 2.20m, weight 5450kg, Ballast 2.200kg.

Regards

Paulo
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  #4566  
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Re: interesting perfromance cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by olianta View Post
With this preferable beam how could any of the Luffes fit in this taste trend? Are they bound to become extinct or as you said in a previous post they will count on a fewer remaining nostalgic customers.
Do you think that the wider beam trend in the recent decades has something to do (apart from the accommodations benefits) with lack of wish to sail to windward instead of motoring? Paulo I would appreciate your input on that. Do majority of cruisers in the Med use their engine instead of beating?

...
Yes, on the med most of the boats motor upwind and you would not believe how much I can go faster and point higher than the average (the few that take pleasure in beating upwind) sailboat. Somehow I tend to end up sailing upwind most of the time and I like it. I would say that is not a very common taste or preference. With a decent wind I can go at 26º apparent doing 6.5K while most of the mass production cruisers go slower or at the same speed at 35º. On two years of sailing I have yet to find a boat that can out point mine (they are out there but there are not many and most of them are used to racing).

The Luffe or Faubry are not only about pointing but also about the motion in the water. Yes they are more comfortable in hard conditions upwind (if we discount heeling) and if on a big picture I think that boats more balanced in what regards beam like Arcona, GS or mine, offer a better package (mainly in what regards interior space), the love of sailing a nimble boat with a very moderate beam will always have their fans. No I don't think it is a dying species but will never be a boat for the majority. Regarding fast cruising and racing boats like the J122 show that they are as fast or faster than beamier boats.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 09-12-2013 at 06:26 PM.
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  #4567  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

I also think one of the reason for the, by todays standard, extremely narrow hulls of Faurby and Luffe is the simple fact that the boxes are that narrow up here.

I also think that to some extent there is too much negative talk about going to windward with the beamy boats. I also have nothing against beating, in fact I very much prefer it compared to to reaching in the 8-18 knots. And even if I can not reach your angle of attack it is still pretty good and not uncomfortable at all, not even in a seaway of decent magnitude. I can easily outrun all normal cruisers (does sailing interested enough to not motor) and keep for instance a well sailed Dehler 36 behind. A good Comfortina 39 was tough though. Same speed but higher angle.

Regarding JKP 38, it is looking good but draft big and double rudders and tiller steering outside the wish list. Regarding weight that is still a puzzling subject. Hull 10 of the Opiums (mine is 11) was at the Paris show 2010 and have an officially verified weight bill of 5630 kg. Now they qoute 6600 kg. RM1060 qoute 4600 kg for a rather big boat wit a loaded interior while Archambault goute 4400 for the A35 while Dehler is up at 7100 for the 38. Very big differencies in my opinion.

Regards,
Anders
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  #4568  
Old 09-13-2013
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Maxi 11.50

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
New boat from Maxi Yachts/Delphia. To be ready at Boot, Dusseldorf 2014.

Single rudder, with main sheet fixed at cockpit table with dedicated winch. Designed by Pelle Pettersson.

Regards,
Anders
http://k170.wip.no/tools/photoalbum/...672/667235.jpg
Maybe I have understood wrongly. Thisis aMaxy yacht, not a Delphia, the first one since Delphia had bought Maxi yachts.The boat looks great, I hope Delphia can contribute for more competitive prices. Maxy yachts went down not because they were not great boats but because their cost was too high. I hope that was the past because this boat looks great.





Regards

Paulo
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  #4569  
Old 09-13-2013
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beam and sailing upwind

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
I also think one of the reason for the, by todays standard, extremely narrow hulls of Faurby and Luffe is the simple fact that the boxes are that narrow up here.

I also think that to some extent there is too much negative talk about going to windward with the beamy boats. I also have nothing against beating, in fact I very much prefer it compared to to reaching in the 8-18 knots. And even if I can not reach your angle of attack it is still pretty good and not uncomfortable at all, not even in a seaway of decent magnitude. I can easily outrun all normal cruisers (does sailing interested enough to not motor) and keep for instance a well sailed Dehler 36 behind. A good Comfortina 39 was tough though. Same speed but higher angle.

...

Regards,
Anders
Anders the Comfortina 39 is a fast boat for a cruiser but I would not call it really a performance cruiser. Let´s say that it is in between a performance cruiser and a luxury cruiser like the HR or Najad.

Beamy boats have not a problem going fast upwind with flat water. It is with harder weather and waves that a slimmer hull can make the difference. With flat water a beamy light boat has a very narrow foot print, as narrow has a narrow boat with the same weight but with waves you have to consider wave drag and that is much bigger on a beamier boat (the wave if big enough will involve almost all hull and then all beam counts has wet surface). A beamier boat will also to carry more sail for the same speed upwind (and it can because it has a lot more hull stability) but that extra power for the same speed imply a passage in power and therefore more uncomfortable motion.

Regards

Paulo
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  #4570  
Old 09-14-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

About NAJAD do you if it is true that this brand is again bankrupt?
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