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  #461  
Old 12-16-2010
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Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post
Paulo,
I was somewhat confused , yes, but I guessed you meant the area forward of the travellor between the coachroof grabrails ? Logic suggest that is what you meant but I did take 'after' to mean 'aft of'. `
I figure the english word most apt would have been 'adjacent'.
...
Well, one of the reasons I post on English forums is to learn English and it seems that here I have learned something . Andrews, one of the worst situations in what concerns the case of inappropriate use of words in a given language is when you have a similar word on your own language, one that is similar, but not used in all the same situations. That seems to be the case with "after" e "depois". If I understand correctly in English "after" means only "next" when time is concerned, like "after breakfast I am doing...". The correspondent word in Portuguese, "depois" is also used in that sense (time) but it is also used in what regards space. That means that in Portuguese I would say "depois" breakfast and also "depois" traveler, but in English I cannot use "after" relating to space. Is this correct? By the way in Portuguese we also have "adjacente". It is a kind of less popular but more correct way to say "depois".

Talking about boats and about the 409, I don't know if it is clear to all the improvements this boat has in terms of running rigging, improvements that make sailing this boat really easy, easier and safer than on the typical cruiser sailboat. At least this time I think that what they advertize is true.

You have really near the wheel, at hand, a big winch, a 46 and a three set up blocks. One is for the Genoa (or self tacking staysail), the other is for the main sail line and the other I am not sure if it is for the traveler. The boat has German sheeting and you have at hand all boat controls, from the main and from the genoa. You can regulate everything from there and more important, in the eventuality of some strong gust you can let go everything from there. This scheme makes a lot of sense for a solo sailor or for a small crew. This not only permits to have all controls at hand but also permits the use of a big Bimini, that would not have been possible with the traveler near the wheel.

Take a look:

http://i804.photobucket.com/albums/y...Semttffulo.jpg

The other big improvement are the winches: Not only size (normally on a big production 40ft they are smaller) but you have the possibility of having a new line of electric winches that makes live a lot easier for all of those that want to sail but are afraid of not having the physical power to cope with the efforts needed. Best then describe them, just have a look (by the way, the boat is the 409).


This boat is having an incredibly positive reaction from the market (and a deserved one). Only Sunsail had bought already 60 of those.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 10:31 AM.
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  #462  
Old 12-16-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post
Paulo,
I was somewhat confused , yes, but I guessed you meant the area forward of the travellor between the coachroof grabrails ? Logic suggest that is what you meant but I did take 'after' to mean 'aft of'. `
I figure the english word most apt would have been 'adjacent'.
...
Well, one of the reasons I post on English forums is to learn English and it seems that here I have learned something . Andrews, one of the worst situations in what concerns the case of inappropriate use of words in a given language is when you have a similar word on your own language, one that is similar, but not used in all the same situations. That seems to be the case with "after" e "depois". If I understand correctly in English "after" means only "next" when time is concerned, like "after breakfast I am doing...". The correspondent word in Portuguese, "depois" is also used in that sense (time) but it is also used in what regards space. That means that in Portuguese I would say "depois" breakfast and also "depois" traveler, but in English I cannot use "after" relating to space. Is this correct? By the way in Portuguese we also have "adjacente". It is a kind of less popular but more correct way to say "depois".

Talking about boats and about the 409, I don't know if it is clear to all the improvements this boat has in terms of running rigging, improvements that make sailing this boat really easy, easier and safer than on the typical cruiser sailboat. At least this time I think that what they advertize is true.

You have really near the wheel, at hand, a big winch, a 46 and a three set up blocks. One is for the Genoa (or self tacking staysail), the other is for the main sail line and the other I am not sure if it is for the traveler. The boat has German sheeting and you have at hand all boat controls, from the main and from the genoa. You can regulate everything from there and more important, in the eventuality of some strong gust you can let go everything from there. This scheme makes a lot of sense for a solo sailor or for a small crew. This not only permits to have all controls at hand but also permits the use of a big Bimini, that would not have been possible with the traveler near the wheel.

Take a look:



The other big improvement are the winches: Not only size (normally on a big production 40ft they are smaller) but you have the possibility of having a new line of electric winches that makes live a lot easier for all of those that want to sail but are afraid of not having the physical power to cope with the efforts needed. Best then describe them, just have a look (by the way, the boat is the 409).

YouTube - Harken Rewind Radial Electric Winch

This boat is having an incredibly positive reaction from the market (and a deserved one). Only Sunsail had bought already 60 of those.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-16-2010 at 01:52 PM.
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  #463  
Old 12-16-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Well, one of the reasons I post on English forums is to learn English and it seems that here I have learned something . Andrews, one of the worst situations in what concerns the case of inappropriate use of words in a given language is when you have a similar word on your own language, one that is similar, but not used in all the same situations. That seems to be the case with "after" e "depois". If I understand correctly in English "after" means only "next" when time is concerned, like "after breakfast I am doing...". The correspondent word in Portuguese, "depois" is also used in that sense (time) but it is also used in what regards space. That means that in Portuguese I would say "depois" breakfast and also "depois" traveler, but in English I cannot use "after" relating to space. Is this correct? By the way in Portuguese we also have "adjacente". It is a kind of less popular but more correct way to say "depois".

Talking about boats and about the 409,

Paulo
Everything I see about that boat impresses me. I'd love to see one in the flesh.

After can be used in referring to space but it will mean next in line or beyond, post, past. That's why when you originally said 'after' I immediately thought you meant 'aft' , aft being (I think) a shortened form of after.

Adjacent however means alongside. Whether that is in front of, ahead of, or to the side.

So you would say "after breakfast" and not "adjacent to breakfast" though you could say e.g. the stern platform is both "after the cockpit", "aft of the cockpit" or it could be seen to be "adjacent to the cockpit".

All clear ?

That many Europeans speak as many languages as you do is quite awe inspiring. I can vaguely read Spanish and Catalan while I speak the most basic of words and phrases of Spanish but I do not 'understand' the languages as such. Yes it is not at all uncommon to find Spaniels who speak fluent Catalan and Spanish (Castillian) , or Euskara and Spanish, or Galego and Spanish plus Italian French English and sometimes even German .
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Last edited by tdw; 12-16-2010 at 04:00 PM.
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  #464  
Old 12-16-2010
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Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409 Polar speeds

Well, when Marty posted about this boat I thought that it was just another jeanneau. I was wrong, this is the first of a different kind of jeanneaus, and contrary to the new Beneteau Sense series, I like the direction they are going

Andrew, get a bit more impressed (It impressed me alright). Look at this Polar:



And the measured speeds on the two boat tests that I have read are consistent with the Polar.

And Andrews, that is not even the Polar for the performance rig, just the one for the Classic rig

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 10:33 AM.
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  #465  
Old 12-16-2010
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and this is number two. The upcoming 439.





I still think the 409 is probably the right size for two.

I confess to not being all that au fait with reading polars but from I do understand they are pretty impressive for a cruising boat.

Edit - Whoa..got a bit confused there for a moment or ten. We switched from D40e to J409 without me noticing. I couldn't figure out why the images didn't match. Duh !! Have to say that while I do like the J409 if I have my choice I'll stay with the D40e.
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Last edited by tdw; 12-16-2010 at 06:44 PM.
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  #466  
Old 12-17-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post
and this is number two. The upcoming 439.

.....
I still think the 409 is probably the right size for two.

I confess to not being all that au fait with reading polars but from I do understand they are pretty impressive for a cruising boat.

Edit - Whoa..got a bit confused there for a moment or ten. We switched from D40e to J409 without me noticing. I couldn't figure out why the images didn't match. Duh !! Have to say that while I do like the J409 if I have my choice I'll stay with the D40e.
Regarding the 439. It is as good as the 409, a little bigger everywhere, a little faster, but basically the same boat. It will only cost more 20 000 euros but as you say, the 409 would be enough for most families. Fact is that the 409 has a kind of wonder interior, that will look like more a 42 or 43ft interior. Believe me I know what I am talking about, I have seen a lot of boats, and my wife will tell you that this boat has a lot more storage space than the Jeanneau 42.

Well, regarding the D40e, it seems that with time you are going to zoom in the right kind of boat I would also prefer that one but there are a little problem, that one costs more 40 000 euros than the 409

Regarding the interior of both boats I would say that your wife would prefer the one from the 409. More storage space and a lot more views to the outside, big ones. Regarding that type of boats I would prefer the Elan 410 over the Dufour 40e (about the same price), that's why I am falling back to my previous choice, the Elan 380. That one costs about as much as the 409.

Comparing the sailing characteristics of the Dufour 40e, versus the 409, I would say that it will be faster, stiffer, safer and as easy to sail, if we discount the self taking jib on the 409.

So what is the fuss about the 409? Well it sails almost as well as the 40e (that is a cruiser-racer), with a "bigger" interior, with better and lot more outside views, for less 40 000 euros. 40 000 euros is a big fuss, especially if you don't have them

Regarding the Polar:

It is really simple to work out: The circles are boat speeds and the colored lines represent wind speeds. On the bottom you have the code for colors and wind speeds. You have just, for a given angle and a given wind speed to look at the where it passes the colored line (in relation to the boat speed circles).

What is extraordinary on this Polar is the pointing ability of this boat (normally only cruiser-racers show angles below 40º) and the overall speed. Some examples:

6K wind at 70º = 6K speed 8K wind at 60º = 7K speed
12K wind at 70º = 8K speed 25K wind at 110º = 10K speed
25K wind at 150º = 10.5K speed

This means that this boat can sail with very little wind (6K) and that most of the time it will be sailing between 7 and 8k. On passage, with trade winds it will be sailing most of the time between 8.5 and 11K.

Of course, the Dufour 40e can do better but that's another type of boat (cruiser racer) and a more expensive one. From the cruisers, only the Hanse 400 will be close in performance and you will have to buy a lot of extras that are standard on this boat, like decent sized winches.

Another interesting point is the motoring cruising speed: 7.5K with 80% power. That's a very good speed for a 40ft boat (the boat has a hull with 11.99m and that is important in what concerns marina prices, at least in Europe).

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-17-2010 at 11:38 AM.
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  #467  
Old 12-17-2010
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Dufour 40e Polar speed

Here, just for comparing, you have the Polar of the Dufour 40e, in its most "racing" version: Long keel, long mast:



This one with 4k wind can make 5k speed at 70º. That's why I want a very good performance sailboat. That's for sailing and not motoring. These boats can sail with very light winds.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 10:35 AM.
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  #468  
Old 12-17-2010
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I am looking at the two polars Paulo, and frankly, I am not seeing a lot of difference between the two. Altho I will admit, the 40e polars are a bit harder to read than the 409, due to the 409 being in color and not overlapping as much. I do feel the 40e polars are a bit better represented when it comes to seeing the genoa vs spin type sail will do.....but that is another issue/story if ones asks me.

But the 409 does appear to be hitting some marks. now to see how she does in some of the BOTY events here and in Europe. I'm looking forward to seeing something in the low to mid 30' range. I could like it, as could my spouse, now if I could afford it.........

Marty
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  #469  
Old 12-18-2010
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Dufour 40e / Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409 Polar speeds

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
I am looking at the two polars Paulo, and frankly, I am not seeing a lot of difference between the two. Altho I will admit, the 40e polars are a bit harder to read than the 409, due to the 409 being in color and not overlapping as much. I do feel the 40e polars are a bit better represented when it comes to seeing the genoa vs spin type sail will do.....but that is another issue/story if ones asks me.

But the 409 does appear to be hitting some marks. now to see how she does in some of the BOTY events here and in Europe. I'm looking forward to seeing something in the low to mid 30' range. I could like it, as could my spouse, now if I could afford it.........

Marty
Here you have the aproximated differences (in red for the 40e):

6K wind at 70º = 6K (6.7) speed 8K wind at 60º = 7K (7.3) speed
12K wind at 70º = 8K (8.2) speed 25K wind at 110º = 10K (10.6) speed
25K wind at 150º = 10.5K (10.8) speed

Now this does not mean that the Dufour is slow (it is one of the fastest 40ft boats around). If you look at the net you will find that the boat is winning races everywhere, this means, as I have said, that the Jeanneau is just a new breed of performance cruising boats, at least in what is concerned mass production boats. This means also that finally Jeanneau is making a clear distinction between their DS line and the performance cruising line in what regards boat performance.

Later I will post the Polar of the Elan 350 and 380. You are going to be surprised with the Polar from the 350

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 10:37 AM.
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  #470  
Old 12-18-2010
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Polar speeds comparative: Jeanneau SO 409, Dufour 40e, Elan 350, Elan 380

Here they are, first is the one from the Elan 380 the second the one from the 350:





Now, lets see the comparative speeds:

(black= J409 Red=D40e Blue=E380 Brown=E350)

6K wind at 70º = 6K (6.7)(6.4)(6.2)

speed 8K wind at 60º = 7K (7.3)(7.1) (6.9)

12K wind at 70º = 8K (8.2) (7.8) (7.2)

25K wind at 110º = 10K (10.6) (10) (9.8)

25K wind at 150º = 10.5K (10.8) (11.2) (11.2).

Comments please!

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 10:40 AM.
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