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  #4741  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by HMoll View Post
500 pages! Congratulations Paulo and senior contributors! Is this a record for any sailing thread? I bet it is. Sold my J/35 a few weeks ago , so this is the sailing I'll be doing for a while. Regards to all, Hans.
Take the time to charter some interesting boats before decide what is really the type and the boat you want. It worked for me and the cost is not considerable if we compare the price of a new boat, not to mention the fun

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Hi there,

Let mi say that despite many doubts I made up my mind and placed an order for a new Luffe 37.09 a little bit customised according to my needs. The keel would be 1.85 instead of the standard 1.70 to get a stiffer boat (though already the CG Og Luffe 37.09 is lower than that of Luffe 37). I thin that with a B/D of 44% and the CG further low I will have a stable, stiff and fast upwind boat. The mast is moved back a few centimeters in order to enjoy a self-tacking jib adequate to the mainsail: 25/24 sq.m., instead of the standard 26/25 sq.m. This is 2 sq.m. less sail area than the standard configuration but still enjoying an almost 20 SA/D. The reverse sloping stern will have a small teak covered bathing platform with an additional step. Cockpit benches will be extended from 1.30 to 1.70 in order to be able to lie, but with the extension can be removed in order to be able to steer standing if wished placing feet comfortably when'd the boat is heeled on the leeward side of the sloped teak floor. The hull and deck will be vacuum molded with epoxy with balsa core (Oluf uses foam core in polyester hulls only). I wanted to retain the bridge deck (though my wife dislikes it) on which there is a recess for the traveller). I will have a spinnaker pole but instead of a spinnaker I will have a code 1 sail which I liked vey much for easy sailing in lighter winds, which is easily hoisted on its own fulrler, which you can even keep rolled without need to immediate removal. Oluf says that if poled out you can sail it even dead downwind. There will be some modifications inside as well. I know the boat is narrow and tight inside but almost all of the time I will be singlehandling it in the Black Sea and the Med (no ocean sailing and no extended trips in opens sea). But as the saying does better grace than space.The instruments will be placed on a board above the companion way and there will be solar panel on the cabin roof. Integrated autopilot (though a rather expensive option) will be fitted. There are many other details to sort out. The good thing with this boatyard is that you can ask for advice and modifications. The smallest (now in terms of weight and beam) Luffe is a long time bestseller of the yard and they have done a lot to improve the model during the years (and I believe my future boat will be in the same line of improvements).

Ok, this was related to the postings about pros and cons regarding cruising in a smaller performance oriented boat and I wish that my future Luffe 37.09 will be both traditional and modern interesting boat.

Rumen
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  #4743  
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Re: winner 900 / Pogo 30

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Few times I have been so surprised as I was by this statement on that global test sail made by Voile magazine:

"Two boats are passing the buoys together, the Pogo 30 and the Winner 900????. Two boats with a very different conception: The Pogo 30 with a beamy modern powerful hull with a simplified interior and the winner with a much more classic hull with a much better interior. Unfortunately we could not judge definitively the performances between the two boats because the winner had not a spinnaker on board."

I have saw the Winner 900 in Dusseldorf, it seems a pretty classic cruiser, like the Dutch ones tend to be, but I would not take it for a very sportive boat, just a fast cruiser on the "old" style:





In fact they have three versions and I bet that the one that was tested with that Pogo 30 was the performance edition, the one on the movie, this one:





The boat is designed by Vand de Stadt design a denomination that pisses me because Vand de stadt passed long ago. The design really is from Cees van Tongeren.

When we look to the dimensions of the sportive version we understand that behind that classical look lays a pretty fast boat, specially upwind:

Length over all: 9.00 m
Waterline: 8.00 m
Width: 2.96 m
Draft: 1.90
Displacement: 3.10 ton
Ballast: 1.20 ton
Mainsail: 31m2

A lot of ballast on that sailboat and almost all in a torpedo at 1.90m is enough to give the power needed to drive fast that narrow hull that does not need a lot of sail.

This is a boat with a conception opposed to the Pogo 30. The weights are not that different (2800kg to 3100kg) but look at the beam (3.70m to 2.96m). the Pogo has a swing keel but it offers also a fixed torpedo keel with 1.90m. On the Pogo the B/D should be smaller as normally is in this type of boats versus narrower boats.









In the end with 6/8K the same speed upwind. I bet that I am not the only one surprised. I hope that they find this as interesting as I and make a full comparative test between the two boats since they could not compare the speeds downwind because the Winner had not a spinnaker.

Of course in high winds the Pogo downwind will start to plan much sooner and will go away but upwind with waves probably the winner will go away too.

Interesting stuff.

There is one thing that is far better on the Pogo interior: space and one that is much better on the winner, interior quality and charm.

Charm is too strong?

Just look at this interior:

http://www.yachtingmonthly.com/fileB...winner900_.swf

Two great boats in their own way I would say
The Pogo 30 keeping up with the Winner 9.00 on an upwind track? In light winds this doesn’t surprise me that much.

The 30 is in fact almost a downsized 12.50 and also we can achieve an upwind VMG comparable to reputated upwind cruiser-racers of similar size, compensating height with speed by bearing down a little and going faster. This results in frustrating tacking angles on the plotter but in the end we reach the upwind mark at the same time, also thanks to the SA/D ratio.

That is: in good conditions such as on this test. Against a steep chop things become quite different because of wave drag, as Paulo very well explained much earlier in this thread.

Once again: we don’t dislike sailing upwind that much because of performance, but mostly because we know how much faster we will be on any other course. Because starting from a reach, trust me, any Pogo will soon be out of sight of almost any other production monohull.

On one condition, as Paulo stated: keep it light.
When the four of us cruised the 10.50, carrying my overweight and our two basketball center players of sons also not being light, plus cruising gear aboard and our luggage/stores for one week, we felt the boat was somewhat overloaded. Performance was very nice (12 k under spinnaker) but would certainly have been even better with a few hundreds of kilo’s less.

This (and headroom) made us decide for the 12.50, that of course accepts more load. But also on this much bigger boat, any load affects performance. That’s why we appointed our youngest son and most fanatic sailor as our “weight watcher” .

So we don’t carry an outboard indeed, not even a tender. The liferaft is only taken aboard for long passages (Pogo’s are unsinkable, so this item is only essential in case of fire and beyond reach of quick assistance). We only use one of the two water tanks (also because in these areas fresh water is always readily available, it rises the turnover and thereby diminishes contamination risks, and also for reasons of lateral weight balance: sails stored on starboard, water on port side). We even dismissed the lever shears because a good hacksaw with a sufficient number of high-grade blades is at least as efficient to cut shrouds in case of dismasting and much lighter.

By the way, we never race. It’s all only about the pleasure of sailing fast.
But of course it will be a completely different thing when we will be able to make our dream cruise to Scotland and the Hebrides. Then comfort will overrule speed and we certainly will carry all the stuff and even more (and probably make the boat a little more comfortable upwind).

And we do always have the music, fridge, stove 2 burners and even an oven, anchor (heavy one), lots of electronics (NKE) and additional storage (primary for clothes), Robelz! Plus heating, hot water, a shower and one single door closing the heads compartiment .

Concerning the Winner, I very much wonder how they manage to keep the weight down to 3.100 kg, with that traditional (=heavy) interior, high B/D ratio, hand-lay-up GRP (no infusion, only the deck is sandwich), steel frame, aluminium mast, wooden bulkheads etc.
Knowing how obsessed the guys of Structures are with weight (sandwich infused hull, deck, bulkheads, deep composite/lead keel, carbon mast, minimalistic interior, etc.), I find it very difficult to believe the Pogo would only weigh 300 kg less .

But one thing is for sure, the Winner 9.00 certainly must be an excellent boat and I look forward to reading the full report in Voiles Mag’.

Best regards,

Eric
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  #4744  
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Luffe 37.09

Quote:
Originally Posted by olianta View Post
Hi there,

Let mi say that despite many doubts I made up my mind and placed an order for a new Luffe 37.09 a little bit customised according to my needs. The keel would be 1.85 instead of the standard 1.70 to get a stiffer boat (though already the CG Og Luffe 37.09 is lower than that of Luffe 37). I thin that with a B/D of 44% and the CG further low I will have a stable, stiff and fast upwind boat. The mast is moved back a few centimeters in order to enjoy a self-tacking jib adequate to the mainsail: 25/24 sq.m., instead of the standard 26/25 sq.m. This is 2 sq.m. less sail area than the standard configuration but still enjoying an almost 20 SA/D. The reverse sloping stern will have a small teak covered bathing platform with an additional step. Cockpit benches will be extended from 1.30 to 1.70 in order to be able to lie, but with the extension can be removed in order to be able to steer standing if wished placing feet comfortably when'd the boat is heeled on the leeward side of the sloped teak floor. The hull and deck will be vacuum molded with epoxy with balsa core (Oluf uses foam core in polyester hulls only). I wanted to retain the bridge deck (though my wife dislikes it) on which there is a recess for the traveller). I will have a spinnaker pole but instead of a spinnaker I will have a code 1 sail which I liked vey much for easy sailing in lighter winds, which is easily hoisted on its own fulrler, which you can even keep rolled without need to immediate removal. Oluf says that if poled out you can sail it even dead downwind. There will be some modifications inside as well. I know the boat is narrow and tight inside but almost all of the time I will be singlehandling it in the Black Sea and the Med (no ocean sailing and no extended trips in opens sea). But as the saying does better grace than space.The instruments will be placed on a board above the companion way and there will be solar panel on the cabin roof. Integrated autopilot (though a rather expensive option) will be fitted. There are many other details to sort out. The good thing with this boatyard is that you can ask for advice and modifications. The smallest (now in terms of weight and beam) Luffe is a long time bestseller of the yard and they have done a lot to improve the model during the years (and I believe my future boat will be in the same line of improvements).

Ok, this was related to the postings about pros and cons regarding cruising in a smaller performance oriented boat and I wish that my future Luffe 37.09 will be both traditional and modern interesting boat.

Rumen
Congratulations about the boat. That long list of modifications show till what point Luffe can customize the boats.

Are you not mistaken about the balsa core? I mean about Luffe not using divinycel on epoxy hulls?

"Glass fibre reinforced polyester or epoxy with foam core ( Divinycel 10 mm.)"

- LUFFE YACHTS -

The 3.6 uses a balsa core with epoxy but the other boats use a foam core, at least it is what is as information on the site and it was what they used some years back.

I don't share your opinion regarding the 37.09 to be a better boat than the 36.6. The 37.09 share the same hull with the 37 and that is an old hull, back from 1979. It was a great boat but even if the rudder and keel are different a lot was learned about design in between and Oluf had keep the pace, designing more modern and fast hulls.







LUFFE 37 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

Well, you will have a "classic" sailboat no doubt



Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 10-18-2013 at 11:00 AM.
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  #4745  
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Re: winner 900 / Pogo 30

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Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
And we do always have the music, fridge, stove 2 burners and even an oven, anchor (heavy one), lots of electronics (NKE) and additional storage (primary for clothes), Robelz! Plus heating, hot water, a shower and one single door closing the heads compartiment .
Sounds like comfortable cruising to me...

That's about the same extras I'd order - but 12.5 is too large for me...
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Re: winner 900 / Pogo 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
.
Once again: we don’t dislike sailing upwind that much because of performance, but mostly because we know how much faster we will be on any other course. Because starting from a reach, trust me, any Pogo will soon be out of sight of almost any other production monohull.
No doubt about that specially if we consider sailing with a short crew. Other much more expensive small series cruiser racers could keep up or even be faster but they are not as easy to sail and need a crew, not to mention ... a lot of money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
...
Concerning the Winner, I very much wonder how they manage to keep the weight down to 3.100 kg, with that traditional (=heavy) interior, high B/D ratio, hand-lay-up GRP (no infusion, only the deck is sandwich), steel frame, aluminium mast, wooden bulkheads etc.
Knowing how obsessed the guys of Structures are with weight (sandwich infused hull, deck, bulkheads, deep composite/lead keel, carbon mast, minimalistic interior, etc.), I find it very difficult to believe the Pogo would only weigh 300 kg less .

But one thing is for sure, the Winner 9.00 certainly must be an excellent boat and I look forward to reading the full report in Voiles Mag’.

Eric
Consider that the Pogo 30 has a beam of 3.7m while the Winner 900 have only about 3.0m. This means that the overall surface to be built is considerably smaller and therefore less heavier. I don't know where you get the information that the hull was not cored. Here they show a cored hull being built:

Winner Yachts Germany - Winner 9.00 bei Nordic Yachting Neustadt



I guess you can read German. There are German test on the net on the Winner 900, but it was not the performance version:

http://www.winner-yachts.de/download...-Winner900.pdf

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 10-18-2013 at 12:21 PM.
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Hey Eric,

just read you're from Antwerpen. What is your home sailing area?

Robert

PS: Will study in Brussels next year...
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Sail movies, some recent ones and one just to show how to sail solo.









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  #4749  
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Re: Luffe 37.09

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Congratulations about the boat. That long list of modifications show till what point Luffe can customize the boats.

Are you not mistaken about the balsa core? I mean about Luffe not using divinycel on epoxy hulls?

"Glass fibre reinforced polyester or epoxy with foam core ( Divinycel 10 mm.)"

- LUFFE YACHTS -

The 3.6 uses a balsa core with epoxy but the other boats use a foam core, at least it is what is as information on the site and it was what they used some years back.

I don't share your opinion regarding the 37.09 to be a better boat than the 36.6. The 37.09 share the same hull with the 37 and that is an old hull, back from 1979. It was a great boat but even if the rudder and keel are different a lot was learned about design in between and Oluf had keep the pace, designing more modern and fast hulls.



Regards

Paulo
Regarding the balsa core here is their answer on the same question I asked (I have found some discrepancies with what was written on their website, which unlike the boats is not to the best what could expect)

"Dear Rumen.
We will do the cockpit, as you suggested in the last picture. Which means you keep the wooden bench at the end of the cockpit, we will extend the benches at the side, as far as possible and it can be folded away.
The core in deck and hull are balsa, we always use balsa when we vacuum infuse with epoxy."

As far as the "old hull"you refer to regarding the Luffe 37, I do not agree. This
is a hull form which has proved itself for many years and I believe it is Oluf's favourite - a narrow boat with low freeboard. As I have stated previously in my opinion Oluf assumed new approach rgearding Luffe 3.6 basically to provide more space and enough standing height belowdecks that would match the taste of the predominantly his German customers who seem to be less spartan than the Danes. I do thin that the 3.6 will be faster not because of the hull shape, but only due to the fact that its sail area is 10 sq.m. more in order to drive
its fattier and heavier hull. And I do not think this is Oluf's favourite hull form. Let's take for instance the Wally Nano hull (Wally yachts are admired by him), whose L/B ratio exceeds the Luffe 37's one. But it's is a daysailor's hull, meaning less space below deck. The more beam aft of the Luffe 3.6 will probably allow planing. But to be honest, if planing capabilities were my priorities I would have ended with a Dragonfly trimaran.

Rumen
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Re: Luffe 37.09

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Congratulations about the boat. That long list of modifications show till what point Luffe can customize the boats.

Are you not mistaken about the balsa core? I mean about Luffe not using divinycel on epoxy hulls?

"Glass fibre reinforced polyester or epoxy with foam core ( Divinycel 10 mm.)"

- LUFFE YACHTS -

The 3.6 uses a balsa core with epoxy but the other boats use a foam core, at least it is what is as information on the site and it was what they used some years back.

I don't share your opinion regarding the 37.09 to be a better boat than the 36.6. The 37.09 share the same hull with the 37 and that is an old hull, back from 1979. It was a great boat but even if the rudder and keel are different a lot was learned about design in between and Oluf had keep the pace, designing more modern and fast hulls.



Regards

Paulo
Regarding the balsa core here is their answer on the same question I asked (I have found some discrepancies with what was written on their website, which unlike the boats is not to the best what could expect)

"Dear Rumen.
We will do the cockpit, as you suggested in the last picture. Which means you keep the wooden bench at the end of the cockpit, we will extend the benches at the side, as far as possible and it can be folded away.
The core in deck and hull are balsa, we always use balsa when we vacuum infuse with epoxy."

As far as the "old hull"you refer to regarding the Luffe 37, I do not agree. This
is a hull form which has proved itself for many years and I believe it is Oluf's favourite - a narrow boat with low freeboard. As I have stated previously in my opinion Oluf assumed new approach rgearding Luffe 3.6 basically to provide more space and enough standing height belowdecks that would match the taste of the predominantly his German customers who seem to be less spartan than the Danes. I do thin that the 3.6 will be faster not because of the hull shape, but only due to the fact that its sail area is 10 sq.m. more in order to drive
its fattier and heavier hull. And I do not think this is Oluf's favourite hull form. Let's take for instance the Wally Nano hull (Wally yachts are admired by him), whose L/B ratio exceeds the Luffe 37's one. But it's is a daysailor's hull, meaning less space below deck. The more beam aft of the Luffe 3.6 will probably allow planing. But to be honest, if planing capabilities were my priorities I would have ended with a Dragonfly trimaran.

Rumen
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