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  #4761  
Old 10-19-2013
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Re: winner 900 / Pogo 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Consider that the Pogo 30 has a beam of 3.7m while the Winner 900 have only about 3.0m. This means that the overall surface to be built is considerably smaller and therefore less heavier. I don't know where you get the information that the hull was not cored. Here they show a cored hull being built:

I guess you can read German. There are German test on the net on the Winner 900, but it was not the performance version:

http://www.winner-yachts.de/download...-Winner900.pdf

Regards

Paulo
My information about the hull was: Winneryachts - Way Ahead - Building a Winner

Which I clearly misunderstood, as also confirmed by the Yacht test (my translation):
Hull and deck are built in sandwich with hand lay-up.

Less beam = less hull = less material = less weight.
Plus 300 kg for the interior now also makes some sense to me.

Thanks Paulo, my honest mistake!

Kind regards,

Eric
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  #4762  
Old 10-20-2013
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Rolex Middle Sea Race 2013

Is on, with a lousy video coverage. This race deserved better. It is a great race with many great boats racing.

This is the race track:



One of the Start (1):



and the list of racers:

Rolex Middle Sea Race

Lots of fast cruising boats racing among racing boats.

Regarding performance cruisers are doing well: there is a two J122, a Salona 41, a Grand Soleil 43, a Elan 410, several First 40, a Solaris 42. It would be nice to see how these boats and many other performance cruisers perform in real time on the Med conditions (there are also a Comet 41s a Azuree 40 and a A 40 racing).

Among those on the Messina straight the two j122 are leading on compensated time and real time, followed by the Salona in compensated time. No cruising Pogos racing (that should be very interesting) only racing Class 40, that are way faster than the cruising versions but even if the first of them is way ahead the other two are slower than the two J122 (in real time) and also slower than the Salona 41, one of them slower than the Comet 41s (all in real time).

It seems that these type of very powerful beamy hulls are not the most indicated for the choppy waters of the med neither for upwind sailing not even on more typical upwind ocean conditions such as you can find on the Sydney-Hobart.

Transats and trade winds are what they are made for and where they are unbeatable by similar sized boats.

The Azuree 40, with a good crew (the boat makes a lot of high level racing), the only performance cruiser clearly based on the 40class racers is way slower than any of the mentioned 40ft performance cruisers. The Azuree is similar in the hull design to a Pogo 12.50 but not as fast (more heavy and with a nicer cruising interior).

the race tracker:

Rolex Middle Sea Race
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Last edited by PCP; 10-20-2013 at 08:38 AM.
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  #4763  
Old 10-20-2013
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Modern hull shapes.

I have to apologies to Eric because it seems that I am always bringing his boat down in what regards comparing performance with other performance boats. I would like to make clear that I find the Pogo 12.50 a fantastic boat with an amazing performance for a cruising boat and not only a sail one but a practical because that boat can have a draft of a bit more than a meter an that allows it to go everywhere and the boat is sold at a low price considering the quality of building, materials and the swing keel.

So why I take always the Pogo as reference for less positive performance considerations: Precisely because the Pogo is very fast but mostly because many here associates the hull shape of the Pogo with the one of a model performance hull, I mean, the ONLY shape and characteristics that a performance hull should have and that is plain wrong.

That shape of hull is good on certain conditions and points of sail, indicated for solo sailing for its added stability (even if probably a solo boat maximized for upwind sailing would be less beamier) not so good in other and not very good in some.

The frequent analysis that I made here based in real times on major races comparing performances of boats sailed by top crews has as main objective to put some light on the subject and learn more about different hull types in different sea and wind conditions. I have been learning and there is much more to be learned.

Modern hulls in fast performance cruisers can have different shapes, maximized to work at his best in different conditions and points of sail, needed a bigger or a smaller crew. Here are some of them:











Do I have a preference?: Yes but that is related with the type of sailing I end up doing most, upwind sailing or light air sailing and it is not the best choice for solo sailing (boat more difficult to handle) - Give me a Ker 39

One of the things it makes the Pogo so extraordinaire is that many can have a Pogo 12.50 that has a "normal" price while a Ker 39 would cost at least more 50% if not more and anyway like the Pogo to maintain top performance it would have to be kept very light.

As I cannot (like) to cruise as light as Eric on a second thought in fact for the load I carry, for that type of very fast planning boat, I would need a much bigger boat, maybe a Premier 45? And that is the problem, that would cost a fortune.

So in the end I would stick (like most) with a Salona 41, a Comet 41, a First 40 or a J122, more heavy boats that would not be so affected by the heavier load. Of course with the extra load I would be saying goodbye to planning speeds, except in rare occasions, but would end up with a boat that would still have a very good performance if compared with main market cruisers. But...if I was going to make a circumnavigation or even crossing the pond on both directions following the trade winds or do a considerable percentage with that kind of sailing, I would take the Pogo 12.50, with some load and all. There I would appreciate its downwind speed and most of all its superior easiness. Having fun with a sailboat is a thing, long range voyaging is another.
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Last edited by PCP; 10-20-2013 at 01:02 PM.
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  #4764  
Old 10-20-2013
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Middle the sea race - update

They have passed Stromboli and there are some interesting news.

There is a Sun Fast 3200 making a fantastic race with d1 h4 m43 s5, a Marten 49 with d0 h22 m32 s22, a J122 with d1 h2 m34 s45 another one with d1 h2 m50 s46, a Grand Soleil 37 with d1 h3 m58 s57, the first Class 40 is making d0 h23 m17 s27, the other two d1 h11 m49 s58 and d1 h11 m50 s44.

Other results:

ELAN 410 d1 h3 m32 s20, Salona 41 d1 h3 m33 s30, First 40 d1 h3 m33 s18, first 40 d1 h4 m4 s27, the first of many First 40.7 d1 h3 m34 s57, Solaris One 42 d1 h3 m13 s16, J 111 d1 h3 m19 s45, J111 d1 h3 m26 s14, Arcambault 40 d1 h3 m44 s3, Comet 41S d1 h3 m53 s34, J 133 d1 h3 m5 s54, Azuree 40 d1 h5 m5 s21, Salona 37 d1 h5 m2 s44, Grand Soleil 43 d1 h3 m18 s51, Dehler 34 d1 h5 m16 s26, Azuree 33 d1 h5 m57 s24, Pacer 376 d1 h3 m42 s308.

A look at the boats. The Comet 41s seems to be duo sailed.

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Last edited by PCP; 10-20-2013 at 02:49 PM.
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  #4765  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Why are so many cruisers faster than the SF 3200? Is the race only upwind or the SF sailed shorthanded?
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  #4766  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Warwick Yacht Design

Ever heard of this yard?
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  #4767  
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Boat design

Quote:
Originally Posted by robelz View Post
Why are so many cruisers faster than the SF 3200? Is the race only upwind or the SF sailed shorthanded?
That is an interesting question that has to do with that post about hull shapes.

No I am quite sure that the boat is not being sailed short handed. That is a well know boat and crew, a very good one. Look at them at the last Giraglia:





In fact the boat (as I have said) it is making a hell of a race being in 6th in compensated time in a race that has 82 boats, many of them with top crews. This means that the boat is been sailed very close to its rating (0.989) that is a very high one for a 32ft boat.

No, this is a very typical Med race with wind from all quadrants. The only difference to the Atlantic shores is the type of waves that here have a more short period, are smaller but more steep.

That SF3200 was designed specifically for the Transquadra (Transat) and in there you would not find a wide variety the winds, like on this race, but trade winds, almost all the time downwind and from medium to strong winds. You can have for days constant winds between 15 and 25K. On those conditions the Sunfast 32 can go very fast at planning speeds but those conditions are "normal" only there, on most other places they are not that usual. If you get 25K downwind you will have also 25K upwind and normally on other places the winds are not that strong and probably you will have more weak winds than strong or medium winds.

The fact that the Sunfast 32, being designed with a Transat in mind, can do so well in IRC says very well regarding the boat and the designer itself.

On the Transquadra (a solo or duo race) between boats designed expressly for it there are also some main market performance racers namely the Grand Soleil 37, that is a boat with a rating not very different (1.038). On the Transquadra it does well but it is not a match for the SF32 but here, with more "normal" conditions, on a boat not as well sailed (14th on compensated) on the Stromboli control point the Grand Soleil 37 was 45m ahead.

The size of the LWL and therefore the size of a sailboat is a very important factor in what regards speed (except in planning speeds or very light winds) so it is not amazing bigger fast performance cruisers to be faster than the SF 32. If you look at the smaller boats you will see that a Dufour 34p (18th in compensated) is 33m slower and if you look at the ratings you will see that both boats have about the same speed potential on "normal conditions" (the SF a bit faster) but on a Transat the SF will fly away.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 10-20-2013 at 06:11 PM.
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  #4768  
Old 10-20-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by robelz View Post
Warwick Yacht Design

Ever heard of this yard?
Yes, but it is not a yard but a Design Cabinet. The design you show seems to have already some years, it is an one off and I don't think it has passed from the design stage.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 10-20-2013 at 05:51 PM.
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  #4769  
Old 10-20-2013
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Middle of the sea race: Duo class

Yes, I was right, that Comet 41s was being duo sailed. It is in 5th out of eleven boats on the Duo class but in real time they are second, only beaten by a 40 class racer and leaving another two class 40 racers behind. Also behind in real time, among others, one First 40, three First 40.7 and two 50ft cruisers. Not bad

A nicer movie about the race start. Beautiful boats out there:

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Last edited by PCP; 10-20-2013 at 06:55 PM.
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  #4770  
Old 10-21-2013
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Irc / orc

We have been talking here about the two major systems. There was an intention to make it a single system but that seems to have been an huge resistance to that. Some say that the results are similar but in fact they are not and at least in the Middle of the sea race they clearly favor big yachts regarding smaller boats.

For instance at Stomboli in IRC the 5 first are all 49ft boats or bigger, mostly racing boats with the oddity of an Oceanis 430.

1st - Mills72
2th - One Off Yawl
3th - Oceanis 430
4th - MINI MAXI 72
5th - MARTEN 49
6th - SUN FAST 3200
7th - Swan 60
8th - CNB 76
9th - B2 IRC 52
10th - Z86

Rolex Middle Sea Race: Results

On ORC the panorama is completely different. That oddity, I mean the Oceanis 430 is the only one that maintains the same position (who would say, an Oceanis 430 in third?) but there are a lot more small boats on the first 10.

1st -Grand Soleil 37
2th - SUN FAST 3200
3th - Amapola Oceanis 430
4th - Dufour 34e p
5th - Beneteau First 40.7
6th - X-40
7th - MARTEN 49
8th - Swan 60
9th - ELAN 340
10th - ELAN 40

Rolex Middle Sea Race: Results

From the big boats only the Martens 49 and the swan 60 remains on the top 10. Some are not racing in ORC (probably they know that the IRC favors big boats, or it is the opposite?) but for instance the CNB 76 that is 8th in IRC is 25th in ORC????, the Z86 that is 10th in IRC is 23th in ORC???, the Grand Soleil 37 is first in ORC and 14th in IRC?????

Rolex Middle Sea Race: Results

These are huge differences and show that something is still very wrong with the rating systems.

There are several top NA working with the rating authorities on the ORC and that has contributed for an increasingly accurate rating regarding true boat performance in different conditions. Contrary to the IRC it is also an open system without nothing hidden and that allows more transparency in what regards all the process.
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Last edited by PCP; 10-21-2013 at 11:30 AM.
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