Interesting Sailboats - Page 478 - SailNet Community
 1269Likes
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #4771 of 6763 Old 10-23-2013 Thread Starter
PCP
Senior Member
 
PCP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,212
Thanks: 21
Thanked 104 Times in 87 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post
Congrats on your purchase, Rumen. I am sure you will be happy with that choice. And don't let anyone tell you the Oceanis 38 would have been a better choice. Ridiculous!!
Nobody had said that an Oceanis 38 would be a better choice to Rumen. If he had choose that boat after sailing that boat 37.09 and the 3.6 for sure that for him the 37.09 is the boat he wants regarding how the boat sails, feels, looks and the type of interior.

What I have said was that for living extensiveness aboard the Oceanis 38 is a better boat and not even regarding Rumen's choice but the Luffe 3.6. But that applies also to the 37.09 tha has not standing height and an even smaller interior, comparing with the 36.6 that has already standing height. The interior space and storage is incomparably bigger on the Oceanis.

I believe Rumen is not planning to live extensively on his sailboat.

I was not talking about Rumen choice (37.09) but comparing the recent Luffe 3.6 with the Oceanis 38 regarding advantages and disadvantages regarding cruising.

Certainly the Oceanis 38 will be a better choice for many and that is one of the reasons why it is going to be much more popular than the Luffe 3.6, even if not so beautiful, not even close. That is also why Beneteau, the bigger boat builder, that uses the best NA, is not proposing boats designed along the same lines and criteria Luffe's are designed: They do not answer the needs and desires of most cruisers.

Regards

Paulo


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 08:33 AM.
PCP is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4772 of 6763 Old 10-23-2013
Senior Member
 
JAndersB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 467
Thanks: 6
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Nobody had said that an Oceanis 38 would be a better choice to Rumen. If he had choose that boat after sailing that boat 37.09 and the 3.6 for sure that for him the 37.09 is the boat he wants regarding how the boat sails, feels, looks and the type of interior.

What I have said was that for living extensiveness aboard the Oceanis 38 is a better boat and not even regarding Rumen's choice but the Luffe 3.6. But that applies also to the 37.09 tha has not standing height and an even smaller interior, comparing with the 36.6 that has already standing height. The interior space and storage is incomparably bigger on the Oceanis.

I believe Rumen is not planning to live extensively on his sailboat.

I was not talking about Rumen choice (37.09) but comparing the recent Luffe 3.6 with the Oceanis 38 regarding advantages and disadvantages regarding cruising.

Certainly the Oceanis 38 will be a better choice for many and that is one of the reasons why it is going to be much more popular than the Luffe 3.6, even if not so beautiful, not even close. That is also why Beneteau, the bigger boat builder, that uses the best NA, is not proposing boats designed along the same lines and criteria Luffe's are designed: They do not answer the needs and desires of most cruisers.

Regards

Paulo

Regards

Paulo
One reflection I have with all these test is that, as I have said before, it is very difficult to evaluate the numbers that are given. For instance the Solaris 37 tested in Sweden with Salona 38 and Elan 400 had 2,4m keel, carbon mast, very expensive sails and no inventory nor any equipment. The Elan was a "special edition" for the norwegian importers personal use for competitions, it did not even have an anchor windlass nor any sign of wood anywhere on deck.

How many normal customers will buy boats like these - very, very few. And after that they will load them down. One boat can perhaps take this without a big loss in speed while others suffer more.

And furthermore, it is vey difficult to calibrate instruments, it can take a whole season for me and then I need to recalibrate due to growth on paddle wheel...

Luffe 36,6 doing 9 knots with normal sails in 17 knots thrue? Hm, perhaps but I guess once again in best equipment state and no load. And we will not sail like that normally.

And then we try to get access to test sail ourselves and still meet boats like those above and no wind (very often) or too much wind (seldeom).

So end result is that we tend to buy, testsail and sell. Or?

Anders
JAndersB is offline  
post #4773 of 6763 Old 10-23-2013 Thread Starter
PCP
Senior Member
 
PCP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,212
Thanks: 21
Thanked 104 Times in 87 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Test sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
One reflection I have with all these test is that, as I have said before, it is very difficult to evaluate the numbers that are given. For instance the Solaris 37 tested in Sweden with Salona 38 and Elan 400 had 2,4m keel, carbon mast, very expensive sails and no inventory nor any equipment. The Elan was a "special edition" for the norwegian importers personal use for competitions, it did not even have an anchor windlass nor any sign of wood anywhere on deck.

How many normal customers will buy boats like these - very, very few. And after that they will load them down. One boat can perhaps take this without a big loss in speed while others suffer more.

And furthermore, it is vey difficult to calibrate instruments, it can take a whole season for me and then I need to recalibrate due to growth on paddle wheel...

Luffe 36,6 doing 9 knots with normal sails in 17 knots thrue? Hm, perhaps but I guess once again in best equipment state and no load. And we will not sail like that normally.

And then we try to get access to test sail ourselves and still meet boats like those above and no wind (very often) or too much wind (seldeom).

So end result is that we tend to buy, testsail and sell. Or?

Anders
Test sails are not all the same. A good test sail is hard to get and few magazines have reliable ones. Voile and voiliers is one exception, Yacht.de is another. Both say how the boat was equipped, the test sail conditions and give exact figures with all elements regarding speed and how it was achieved including sea conditions.

I prefer comparative tests with both boats on the water and even if those two magazines do them they are not the more frequent. The Oceanis 38 was tested in the water with the Varianta 37 with light winds, being the Varianta noticeably fast and I am sure that the Varianta had mo racing sails but cheap ones (you can see on the pictures).

I sail tested once a Luffe 4004. That was a windy day (about 20K) and the boat had non reefing racing sails. Oluf was sailing the boat and with the main alone we were soon doing +8k. Those narrow boats have little drag and can easily get to hull speed, even a bit over it. remember that they were sailing the 36.6 with a spinnaker when they reach 9K with 17K wind. A more light beamy boat like the Pogo 10.50 would probably reach the 9K with considerably less wind or with that wind that speed without a spinnaker. But if you loaded it too much the lose in speed would probably be more noticeable than on the Luffe.

The Oceanis looks like a Pogo...except in the weight, RM and sail area. off course, downwind speed too.

I agree with you regarding the boats being unloaded and with very little tankage aboard. A real cruising boat (except Eric's one) will have most of the time a thousand kg more and not all boats are affected the same way by an heavy load.

Regarding Calibrated instruments that can have some effect but testers are not dumb and for sure they have a look at both instruments: GPS speed and log speed and that limit margin error.


Regards

Paulo


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 10:04 AM.
PCP is offline  
post #4774 of 6763 Old 10-23-2013
Senior Member
 
JAndersB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 467
Thanks: 6
Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Re: Interesting Sailboats

It is very seldom no current when sailing and since we are speaking about boatspeed differences around 0,5-1,5 knots that can easily be overtaken by the current. If boat log is not calibrated it is very difficult to compare gps and boat instrument speed to evaluate the current. And sailing back and forth to evaluate this demands absolutely 90 degrees TWA and also 90 degrees True Wave Angle and Symmetric Weed Growth - that are new therms for the instrument makers to introduce.

All these new showboats I have tested, also the Dragonfly that had already been used for a year, have had non calibrated instruments and are also often lacking enough instruments to set up SOG and GPS Speed, TWA/AWA and TWS/AWS.

Of course you can get some picture of current by observing markers etc. but still we need to be careful when talking about speeds in tests. And even if testers declare conditions and boat set up it does not help us that much since we do not know how the boat will take another 1000 kg of load, with heavier mast and lower draft.

Anders
JAndersB is offline  
post #4775 of 6763 Old 10-23-2013
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Poland
Posts: 27
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
 
Re: Test sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Test sails are not all the same. A good test sail is hard to get and few magazines have reliable ones. Voile and voiliers is one exception, Yacht.de is another. Both say how the boat was equipped, the test sail conditions and give exact figures with all elements regarding speed and how it was achieved including sea conditions.

I prefer comparative tests with both boats on the water and even if those two magazines do them they are not the more frequent. The Oceanis 38 was tested in the water with the Varianta 37 with light winds, being the Varianta noticeably fast and I am sure that the Varianta had mo racing sails but cheap ones (you can see on the pictures).

I sail tested once a Luffe 4004. That was a windy day (about 20K) and the boat had non reefing racing sails. Oluf was sailing the boat and with the main alone we were soon doing +8k. Those narrow boats have little drag and can easily get to hull speed, even a bit over it. remember that they were sailing the 36.6 with a spinnaker when they reach 9K with 17K wind. A more light beamy boat like the Pogo 10.50 would probably reach the 9K with considerably less wind or with that wind that speed without a spinnaker. But if you loaded it too much the lose in speed would probably be more noticeable than on the Luffe.

The Oceanis looks like a Pogo...except in the weight, RM and sail area. off course, downwind speed too.

I agree with you regarding the boats being unloaded and with very little tankage aboard. A real cruising boat (except Eric's one) will have most of the time a thousand kg more and not all boats are affected the same way by an heavy load.

Regarding Calibrated instruments that can have some effect but testers are not dumb and for sure they have a look at both instruments: GPS speed and log speed and that limit margin error.


Regards

Paulo
Could you post anything more about the varianta and oceanis test?
Thanks
Kubota is offline  
post #4776 of 6763 Old 10-23-2013 Thread Starter
PCP
Senior Member
 
PCP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,212
Thanks: 21
Thanked 104 Times in 87 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Re: Interesting Sailboats

I am improving the thread making the search engine a lot more efficient and reread this old comment post from Slap. It is just so nice that I will re post it again:

"Sailing is a slow, wet, expensive, time consuming activity that doesn't make any sense. So one's choice in boats does not have to make sense, either. It just has to make you happy."

JAndersB likes this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 11:28 AM.
PCP is offline  
post #4777 of 6763 Old 10-23-2013 Thread Starter
PCP
Senior Member
 
PCP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,212
Thanks: 21
Thanked 104 Times in 87 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Varianta 37 - 44 and Oceanis 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubota View Post
Could you post anything more about the varianta and oceanis test?
Thanks
On that comparative sailing test for electing the Voile Magazine boat of the year, with all boats in the water at the same time, they selected the opinion of several testers regarding each boat and made also a general comment by the editor.

In a very free translation of the more significant parts:

OCEANIS 38:

"Very Agreeable at sea and in the Port...I like the Arch integrated in the dodger. It makes a lot of sense". Another tester: "I don't like this type of boats that pretend to do everything at the same time. The interior lacks of ventilation" another says: "The sensation of interior space is incredible. I like the open space including the front cabin on the saloon and I like the big hull ports that provide a great view".

VARIANTA 37:

"The performances on the water are a good surprise, with 7.2K on the light winds. I had a good feeling at the wheel. That's true that the interior is spartan but that is not chocking and it is even coherent with the boat". Another one: That's a good boat for start cruising, we can have a boat with a limited budget and with time we can add equipment and even better the interior. It is a great boat for the price. Finally we can have a new boat for the price of an used one." From the editors: "The boat has the Hanse 370 hull and it is incredibly good in light winds. The rigging is simple but it has the essential. The interior is minimalist but not uncomfortable".

That comes as no surprise, the boat is basically an Hanse and the minimalist interior makes it lighter and therefore faster. The same happened with the Varianta 44 that is a fast boat. The Varianta 37 has a better interior and more equipment as well as more options regarding additional equipment.

Have a look at the Varianta 44 (also based also on an Hanse hull) sailing potential, even with strong winds:





Regards

Paulo


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 02:03 PM.
PCP is offline  
post #4778 of 6763 Old 10-23-2013 Thread Starter
PCP
Senior Member
 
PCP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,212
Thanks: 21
Thanked 104 Times in 87 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Bavaria 37

That's another boat that raised a good impression on that massive boat test: the Bavaria 37 that has the same hull of the 36 but has a completely new cabin and interior. A better boat no doubt for a great price, at least in Europe.

I specially like the four winches on the cockpit a thing that only Bavaria offers (even on option) on this market segment.

Click at 360 view:

Bavaria Yachtbau: CRUISER 37



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PCP is offline  
post #4779 of 6763 Old 10-23-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: South of Albuquerque
Posts: 525
Thanks: 8
Thanked 24 Times in 22 Posts
Rep Power: 3
 
Re: Interesting Sailboats

I love the videos and the hot fast new boats. I cant find a hot new fast schooner, does anyone build schooners presently?

Zen is a matter of recognizing reality.
desert rat is offline  
post #4780 of 6763 Old 10-23-2013
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Poland
Posts: 27
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
 
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Thanks Paulo! I have to say, that I really like Varianta-it is a great concept, just a boat meant for sailing. It's a pity, that it didn't go that well with the 44...
Kubota is offline  
Closed Thread

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 6 (1 members and 5 guests)
nemier
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cruising sailboats for sale welch Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 10 04-25-2012 05:20 PM
THE Yacht Builder List T37Chef Boat Review and Purchase Forum 26 07-08-2011 05:51 AM
Noob wonderings and questions about sailing, life at sail and sailboats Vans General Discussion (sailing related) 49 06-20-2011 12:18 AM
A List of ALL sailboats made with layouts? Myblueheaven Boat Review and Purchase Forum 8 10-08-2010 11:32 AM
Failure to Navigate - interesting post on Panbo Blog & from the NewsReader Mass Bay Sailors 0 12-11-2006 06:15 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome