Interesting Sailboats - Page 493 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree1266Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #4921  
Old 11-03-2013
JAndersB's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 467
Thanks: 6
Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 4
JAndersB is on a distinguished road
Re: X6 from X-yachts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
WOW!!!!! It looks almost Italian



"The X6 represents the first in a new development of performance cruising yachts. The twin-rudder X6 will utilise the same hi-tech construction techniques as X-Yachts adopted to build their latest generation Xp racer-cruisers, including vacuum infused epoxy with localised carbon for strength, stiffness and stability. It also comes from the same drawing-board as the award-winning Xcruising family.

Combining the best elements of these two world-beating ranges will be an all-new, luxurious and impressively fast collection of performance cruising yachts for state of the art blue-water sailing.
"

The New X6
Like a bigger Oceanis 38

Anders
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #4922  
Old 11-03-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,201
Thanks: 21
Thanked 99 Times in 82 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: X6 from X-yachts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
Like a bigger Oceanis 38

Anders
Only if you mean the arch. The hull does not belong to the same family, as the others on the X yacht series. I did not say Italian by accident, it looks like in the Italian tradition in what regards fast hulls.

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #4923  
Old 11-03-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,201
Thanks: 21
Thanked 99 Times in 82 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Transat Jaques Fabre

It seems they have decided to postpone the race one day due to the bad weather. At least it is not a big postponement. The start will begin in about one day and 2 hours. Last night they had work taking care of the boats at the marina....gusting 50k


BRE - Briefing tempo - Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 por TransatJacquesVabre

They all know they will face terrible seas and winds, particularly on the way out of the British channel to the Biscay.

This way the transat will be a looong one because they go for Itajai, on the South of Brazil: 5400 nm on a transat....it is really a big one

I wish all the best to all of them. It is going to be a though race and the conditions are set for an epic race. Good luck to all.


ENG - 5,400 miles to Itajai - Transat Jacques... por TransatJacquesVabre

These are some of the guys and girls that will be out racing in the stormy weather:


Présentation des skippers - Transat Jacques... por TransatJacquesVabre
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 11-03-2013 at 07:29 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #4924  
Old 11-03-2013
EricKLYC's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Posts: 468
Thanks: 16
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Rep Power: 4
EricKLYC is on a distinguished road
Re: Beamy modern boats and offshore cruising.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
All generalizations are dangerous and a boat being beamy and with the beam pulled back is only one of the many elements in a boat design "composition" but I can tell you for sure that the reason why the Open solo race boats are beamy and have big transom is not to have more interior room and also that those boats are not designed for inshore racing but to deep offshore racing.

...

The reason because modern cruisers are based more and more on open boats has to do with the fact that this is the hull shape that if well designed can provide more easy boats to sail (that's why it used for solo racers) specially downwind. It provides also for powerful boats and therefore fast boats. They are optimized for downwind sailing being the weakest point upwind sailing with waves, a thing that most cruisers don't do

...

Regarding bluewater sailing, if you want to travel the wrong side, against the winds, this type of hull is far from indicated but if you want to travel along the trade winds (that is what almost all do) then this is the kind of hull that if well designed make it easier, namely in what regards using autopilot.

No doubt about that: the extremely wide and aft beam of the Pogo gives excellent control downwind, especially in waves.
Much better than e.g. the IOR typed Dehler 39 we sailed extensively before (less beam positioned much more forward, narrow transom).

I fully agree with Paulo that this firstly has to do with the enormous form stability of the Pogo, very efficient to prevent rolling.
The Dehler was quite a roller and rolling movements cause a lateral imbalance between the center of effort (sail) and the center of resistance (hull), generating a rotating couple of forces that constantly must be compensated at the wheel. These rudder movements even reinforce this imbalance and that’s why inexperienced helmsmen can induce a broach or a gybe by overcompensating at the wheel.

I also agree the twin rudders are less important downwind but essential upwind, because when heeled even a very deep single rudder would soon be lifted out of the water.

If the boat is also sufficiently light to be able to surf down the waves, you sail at around the same speed so the transom doesn’t get hit by the waves and you and encounter much less waves which makes it easier and more comfortable. In good conditions (especially long, oceanic waves) you can even overtake them .

Of course all this comes with a price: less pointing ability and an uncomfortable behavior sailing upwind against seas, because of the lack of inertia and wave drag (I can’t find back your excellent earlier post about this, Paulo ).
But of course “gentlemen do not sail upwind”… .
PCP likes this.

Last edited by EricKLYC; 11-03-2013 at 07:48 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #4925  
Old 11-03-2013
EricKLYC's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Posts: 468
Thanks: 16
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Rep Power: 4
EricKLYC is on a distinguished road
Re: X6 from X-yachts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Only if you mean the arch. The hull does not belong to the same family, as the others on the X yacht series. I did not say Italian by accident, it looks like in the Italian tradition in what regards fast hulls.

Regards

Paulo
No mainsail traveler…

Cf. an earlier discussion on this thread: I don’t like that at all. It only works when a very powerful downhoal is provided, which is seldom the case because of the enormous forces this generates on the boom.

This is also one of the reasons I prefer Paulo’s Comet 41 above the new model: his traveler is longer, which gives a much better upwind control of the power and shape of the main.

Best regards,

Eric
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #4926  
Old 11-03-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,201
Thanks: 21
Thanked 99 Times in 82 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Beamy modern boats and offshore cruising.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
No doubt about that: the extremely wide and aft beam of the Pogo gives excellent control downwind, especially in waves.
Much better than e.g. the IOR typed Dehler 39 we sailed extensively before (less beam positioned much more forward, narrow transom).....The Dehler was quite a roller and rolling movements cause a lateral imbalance between the center of effort (sail) and the center of resistance (hull), generating a rotating couple of forces that constantly must be compensated at the wheel. These rudder movements even reinforce this imbalance and that’s why inexperienced helmsmen can induce a broach or a gybe by overcompensating at the wheel.
....
You give the impression that the Dehler 39 (a recent design, the previous model regarding Dehler 41) is a bad boat

Well it isn't, it is even today a very good performer even racing. It is not designed for IOR racing (I guess you don't mean that) but for IMS racing, the ratting that perfected give today's ORC. About the Dehler 39 some opinions:

A Rollicking Good Ride
"..Now comes the racy Dehler 39. Designed to the IMS rule by Judel/Vrolijk (a firm known for its Admiral's Cup successes), the 39s occupy the performance end of the cruiser/racer continuum. But her cherry interior and separate shower stall won't let you forget that she's built for comfort."

Cruising World, by Tim Murphy


Go-Faster cruiser

"..The Dehler 39 is a fast, responsive, classy package"

SAIL, by Tom Linskeyn and Bill Springer


Style and performance in a highly engineered racer-cruiser

"..We got onto open water, and the moderate northeaster started kicking up a chop on top of some residual swells from the previous day.

The Dehler didn't mind at all. It bit into the waves and powered through, holding its speed and showing no tendency to pound upwind. When we took the boat through a series of tacks, the Dehler came through the eye of the wind cleanly and was very forgiving on the occasion that I timed things perfectly to stick the boat's nose into a particularly sharp wave..
All in all, everything about the Dehler says it is a boat both designed and constructed to perform"

SAILING, by Adam Cort


This is not mean to take away anything you said. Obviously because you have owned a Dehler 39 and now own a Pogo 12.50, you are in an ideal position to compare both boats, it is just to give more emphasis to what you are saying:

The Dehler 39 was and still is a great boat, the fact that the Pogo 12.50 performs much better upwind and with following seas show how suited for those conditions those hulls are, when well designed.

An older narrower design would roll even more downwind and will require a good hand at the wheel ion trying and difficult conditions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
Of course all this comes with a price: less pointing ability and an uncomfortable behavior sailing upwind against seas, because of the lack of inertia and wave drag (I can’t find back your excellent earlier post about this, Paulo ).
But of course “gentlemen do not sail upwind”… .
Let me point out that there is another reason for the two rudder setup on very beamy boats with all the beam carried back. Those boats when heeled have an asymmetric water plan and a central only rudder would be way off the center of that plan, while the two rudder system is designed in a way that one of the rudders is right on the middle of that plan when the boat is heeled. That gives to the rudder a much bigger efficiency and allows it to have a much smaller wet surface and therefore less efforts on the rudder and on the wheel.

These designs (by Finot) are very old and I am not sure if twin rudders were used already but they show clearly the problem and why twin rudders are more efficient on these hulls.





Originally with these designs Finot wanted to show that a beamy boat will have, when heeled, a biger LWL than a similar sized narrow boat. both boats with the same LWL on a not heeled position.

Regards

Paulo
EricKLYC likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 11-03-2013 at 08:45 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #4927  
Old 11-03-2013
EricKLYC's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Posts: 468
Thanks: 16
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Rep Power: 4
EricKLYC is on a distinguished road
Re: Beamy modern boats and offshore cruising.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
You give the impression that the Dehler 39 (a recent design, the previous model regarding Dehler 41) is a bad boat

Well it isn't, it is even today a very good performer even racing. It is not designed for IOR racing (I guess you don't mean that) but for IMS racing, the ratting that perfected give today's ORC.

...

An older narrower design would roll even more downwind and will require a good hand at the wheel ion trying and difficult conditions.

I’ve been unclear about the Dehler 39 CWS, sorry for that.
The one I’m referring to is indeed a much older version, a Van de Stadt design from the 80’s, the cruising version of the Dehler 38 which was then a successful IOR racer (same hull but without the IOR “bumps” to mislead the gauge, with an added stern platform but a very different rig, deck an interior lay-out).

An excellent upwind performer but a challenge to control downwind, especially with the symmetric spinnaker up and following seas.

Google Afbeeldingen resultaat voor http://imagenes.cosasdebarcos.com/barcosOcasion/4/5/6/1/dehler-39-cws-25168052010119849575449569950455x.jpg

Google Afbeeldingen resultaat voor http://imagenes.cosasdebarcos.com/barcosOcasion/8/7/2/4/dehler-yachts-dehler-39-cws-05199030111666666857555753534569x.jpg

Google Afbeeldingen resultaat voor http://www.bootstest24.de/uploads/user/jpegs/1248620778_1202_Dehler_39_CWS.jpg

Berst regards,

Eric
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #4928  
Old 11-03-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Puerto Rico
Posts: 184
Thanks: 3
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 8
HMoll is on a distinguished road
Re: X6 from X-yachts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
No mainsail traveler…

Cf. an earlier discussion on this thread: I don’t like that at all. It only works when a very powerful downhoal is provided, which is seldom the case because of the enormous forces this generates on the boom.


Eric
By "downhaul" you probably refer to the boom vang. Also does require a much heavier boom section, but I would think this is compatible with the park avenue booms. I do agree it will be one of the most important decisions when choosing a next cruising boat. It's nice for the family to do cockpit-friendly gybes, but I will not sacrifice proper sail trim! One final thought: I wonder if masts keep "moving" back, with high aspect mainsail, shorter booms and self-tacking foresails, maybe travelers will become history, just like backstays in some cases!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #4929  
Old 11-03-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,201
Thanks: 21
Thanked 99 Times in 82 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Beamy modern boats and offshore cruising.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
I’ve been unclear about the Dehler 39 CWS, sorry for that.
The one I’m referring to is indeed a much older version, a Van de Stadt design from the 80’s, the cruising version of the Dehler 38 which was then a successful IOR racer (same hull but without the IOR “bumps” to mislead the gauge, with an added stern platform but a very different rig, deck an interior lay-out).

An excellent upwind performer but a challenge to control downwind, especially with the symmetric spinnaker up and following seas.

Google Afbeeldingen resultaat voor http://imagenes.cosasdebarcos.com/barcosOcasion/4/5/6/1/dehler-39-cws-25168052010119849575449569950455x.jpg

Google Afbeeldingen resultaat voor http://imagenes.cosasdebarcos.com/barcosOcasion/8/7/2/4/dehler-yachts-dehler-39-cws-05199030111666666857555753534569x.jpg

Google Afbeeldingen resultaat voor http://www.bootstest24.de/uploads/user/jpegs/1248620778_1202_Dehler_39_CWS.jpg

Berst regards,

Eric
My bad, anyway a very good cruiser for its time but a much older design from Van de Stadt that started do be produced in 1988. Essentially a typical boat from the early 90's and curiously the type of boats that most on this forum associates with a good bluewater boat:



You are right that is an IOR boat with those small transoms and small cockpits, even if this is one that is moderate in what regards extreme IOR examples.

Here we have the Dehler 39 is a Judel/Vrolijk design from 1996 and that had a long life being only substituted by the current 41.



The boats are quite different in hull design being the 39 a much more beamier boat (3.82m to 3.30m) with the beam pulled much more aft, with a much bigger transom. A faster and better boat, in fact one that I like.




I was a bit surprised that Eric described the 39 as " quite a roller". Certainly the Pogo 12.50 will roll downwind less than a Dehler 39 but the Dehler 39 will roll much less than the 39 CWS.



........

Anders, please give your contribute to this discussion. Having owned a Dehler, a 43cr ( 1995), also a boat also from Vand de Stadt but with a more modern hull than the 39CWS (also a relatively narrow boat for a 43ft) and having now an Opium 39, a boat with a big beam and big stern, a fast cruiser with the hull also directly derived from solo racers, tell us about the difference in what regards sailing downwind and particularly in following seas.






Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 11-03-2013 at 12:39 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #4930  
Old 11-03-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,201
Thanks: 21
Thanked 99 Times in 82 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Mini Transat

"From Gijon to Sada, the Ministes are in the queue to go. The little colony has organised itself with typicl good humour and is prepared to wait it out while watching for a favourable weather window.

The experiences of those arriving after this first leg have varied considerably depending on how far to the west they were in in the Bay of Biscay, their reservers and resourcefulness to cope with this unexpected period ashore and their ability to deal with the the speed with which the situation is changing.

It's hard to imagine all the little annoyances caused by the impromptu stop. When the Ministes left for this first stage they had just a few essential changes of clothes for life at sea ... What they had with them was simple and functional, but not necessarily ideally adapted to life ashore. The stopover in Gijon has changed the game, especially for those who were relying on their families to have things organised for them in Lanzarote at the end of this first leg.

As a result it's been necessary to get organised. Working on the principal that we are never stronger than when we work together, the Ministes have taken over (with the generous agreement of the club) the premises of the Club Maritimo de Gijon and have unearthed some local gems. A sort of boarding house with dormitories has been requisitioned for the fleet, competitors have come together in groups working together to purchases underwear, socks and other items of clothing where they needed local language. "


Tuer le (mauvais) temps | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre

This race definitively is going to be a strange race. It seemed to me that today they had a good window to sail out but they stayed put. I had a look at the weather and I would say that the conditions today were better than in all next week. Are they going to stay there for a week? This race is funny I guess the racers, mainly the top ones are not finding it so funny.

This is the problem to have more than 80 boats racing in an a Transat and most of all have mixing top racers with amateurs. Sure it is very nice but that creates completely different rhythms and paces. How can they find a window if the + 80 boats will be in 3 or 4 days stretched on a huge area?

Besides what is safe for a top sailor is not safe for a relative inexperienced amateur and they have to take as safety precautions what is safe for the worst sailors, even if the better would not have any problem with the conditions that can be unsafe for the less experienced.

I guess that after this race some things will have to change otherwise this race that is a prestigious one will turn in a folkloric one and not a meaningful sportive event anymore.

Well, at least we have some nice photos here:

2013 MINI TRANSAT START - MINI - 6 - 50 - RACES - EVENTS - OFFSHORE - RACING - Sea and Co, The Marine Photo Library
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 11-03-2013 at 03:44 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 3 (0 members and 3 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cruising sailboats for sale welch Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 10 04-25-2012 06:20 PM
THE Yacht Builder List T37Chef Boat Review and Purchase Forum 26 07-08-2011 06:51 AM
Noob wonderings and questions about sailing, life at sail and sailboats Vans General Discussion (sailing related) 49 06-20-2011 01:18 AM
A List of ALL sailboats made with layouts? Myblueheaven Boat Review and Purchase Forum 8 10-08-2010 12:32 PM
Failure to Navigate - interesting post on Panbo Blog & from the NewsReader Mass Bay Sailors 0 12-11-2006 07:15 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:33 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.