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  #4931  
Old 11-03-2013
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Re: X6 from X-yachts.

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Originally Posted by HMoll View Post
One final thought: I wonder if masts keep "moving" back, with high aspect mainsail, shorter booms and self-tacking foresails, maybe travelers will become history, just like backstays in some cases!

I’m not quite sure about that.
Apart from sail shape (halyard/Cunningham, outhaul, mast bend), mainsail trimming is essentially about controlling the leech (open or closed, more or less twist). A correct leech tension will give power to the sail while maintaining laminar airflow and creating upwash for the foresail.
That’s why the main has tell tales on the leech, while foresails have it on the luff.

The higher the aspect ratio, the longer the leech for a given sail area, the more important a powerful boom vang will be (you’re right: downhaul is not the right term, I already made this mistake before but English is only my third language so please excuse me once again). Very low aspect mains such as gaff sails don’t even need a vang because the length (weight and lever) of the boom is mostly sufficient to tension the sail.

But since a boom vang is utterly inefficient in creating downward force on a modern rig, I consider a traveler for the main sheet essential for performance cruising, especially upwind. The further aft (and the longer!), the better.
By the way, when sailing upwind in good conditions, you want the boom amidships. This is impossible to achieve without a traveler pulling the sheet on the high side.

On our boat, until a beam reach, the sheet only serves as a (very powerful) vang. Sail power is regulated by the traveler which runs along the whole available beam in the aft cockpit, out of way for easy circulation. With a 6:1 purchase and within immediate reach of the helmsman, such a traveler is extremely efficient and easy to handle.
Further downwind a dedicated line is just taken down from the boom to the toerail and comes back to one of the coach roof winches. This is once again very much more efficient than even the most powerful traditional boom vang that has to work under an almost impossible angle.

Considering self-tacking foresails: the more the mast comes aft, the lower their aspect ratio. Without any ability to change the sheeting angle, these sails become highly inefficient already from a close reach because of excessive twist and spoiling in the upper part of the sail.

So I am indeed quite shocked to see that a yard such as X-Yachts, with even their Xc cruising range designed with good performance in mind, give away an essential feature such as a main traveler.

Best regards,

Eric
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  #4932  
Old 11-03-2013
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Atlantic record attempt - Discovery route.

Spindrift 2 is at it, I mean at the record attempt and has already a 12 hours advantage over the record holder, Cammas and Groupama 3. The giant trimaran, the biggest of them all, is skippered by Yann Guichard and well... Dona Bertarelli and crewed by these guys:

Spindrift Racing | Official website | Maxi Trimaran, MOD70 & Decision 35 ? Team

Some images of this look like spaceship going steady at speed:



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Old 11-04-2013
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Re: Beamy modern boats and offshore cruising.

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
My bad, anyway a very good cruiser for its time but a much older design from Van de Stadt that started do be produced in 1988. Essentially a typical boat from the early 90's and curiously the type of boats that most on this forum associates with a good bluewater boat:

........

Anders, please give your contribute to this discussion. Having owned a Dehler, a 43cr ( 1995), also a boat also from Vand de Stadt but with a more modern hull than the 39CWS (also a relatively narrow boat for a 43ft) and having now an Opium 39, a boat with a big beam and big stern, a fast cruiser with the hull also directly derived from solo racers, tell us about the difference in what regards sailing downwind and particularly in following seas.


Regards

Paulo
Yes, as I have written earlier I went from a Beneteau Oceanis 40 2007 (new) to a Dehler 43 CWS from 1993 and then 2011 (new) to the current Wauqiez Opium 39. The Dehler 43 CWS is rather similar to the 39 CWS.

I have very mixed experiences from sailing these and other boats before. The Oceanis was overall rather nice but too beamy aft and too little ballast for a single rudder set up.

The Dehler was a very "traditional" performance cruiser with big ballast, rather narrow aft parts and a high rig with good hardware. All this resulted in very high loads on everything but apart from that a very nice boat. We sailed it home from Fehmarn in Germany to Gothenbourg in 32 hours with an avarage speed of 9 knots and that included 6 hours of motoring in the night doing only 6 knots. During the last 6 hours we had 46 knots TWS dead from behind and we had only one reef in the big main and poled out jib doing 11-13 knots all the time. In these conditions the boat was surprisingly stable, probably due to the high speed but compared with the Opium the biggest advantage for the Dehler is in very light winds where the Dehler has a better release aft and less wet surface.

On a beat I find them pretty similar and in more normal downwind sailing wind speed the Opium has a higher average speed and as you said, less rolling. It is nothing you reflect that much over initially but after a while you start noticing
that everybody is relaxing and behaving as if we would be sailing in sheltered waters with a tws of perhaps 12-14 knots when it is in fact big swell and blowing 20-24 knots. And "stressing" the gennaker with the aft beam and double rudders is less of a problem compared with the earlier boats.

What we initially noted most is the so much lower loads on everything. As you discussed recently regarding hoisting the main with electrical winches, on the Dehler that was definitively a must and the 12mm dyneema haylard was only 6 mm during the last meter. On the Opium, with 2:1 set up my wife easily hoist the smaller but still significant main all the way by hand, only winching the last 20 cm. Low weight demanding lighter gear giving lower weight....

Still, the Dehler was a very nice boat and we mainly sold it due to finding it too big. But the joy of speeding along with the light Opium riding on the aft quarter is nothing you could experience very easily on the Dehler.

Regarding Erics recent note about boom wang I totally agree. On the Opium we mainly use the rather wide traweller for trimming the main and it is a feature I definitively would not be without on a boat. Sailing upwind it is better to switch to small jib on the inner forestay and keep the full main somewhat down the traveller, than keeping 105% genua and reefing main.

Regarding the X6 and comparison with oceanis 38 the X6 also has double rudders,

Anders
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Re: Beamy modern boats and offshore cruising.

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Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
Yes, as I have written earlier I went from a Beneteau Oceanis 40 2007 (new) to a Dehler 43 CWS from 1993 and then 2011 (new) to the current Wauqiez Opium 39. The Dehler 43 CWS is rather similar to the 39 CWS.

I have very mixed experiences from sailing these and other boats before. The Oceanis was overall rather nice but too beamy aft and too little ballast for a single rudder set up.

The Dehler was a very "traditional" performance cruiser with big ballast, rather narrow aft parts and a high rig with good hardware. All this resulted in very high loads on everything but apart from that a very nice boat. We sailed it home from Fehmarn in Germany to Gothenbourg in 32 hours with an avarage speed of 9 knots and that included 6 hours of motoring in the night doing only 6 knots. During the last 6 hours we had 46 knots TWS dead from behind and we had only one reef in the big main and poled out jib doing 11-13 knots all the time. In these conditions the boat was surprisingly stable, probably due to the high speed but compared with the Opium the biggest advantage for the Dehler is in very light winds where the Dehler has a better release aft and less wet surface.

On a beat I find them pretty similar and in more normal downwind sailing wind speed the Opium has a higher average speed and as you said, less rolling. It is nothing you reflect that much over initially but after a while you start noticing
that everybody is relaxing and behaving as if we would be sailing in sheltered waters with a tws of perhaps 12-14 knots when it is in fact big swell and blowing 20-24 knots. And "stressing" the gennaker with the aft beam and double rudders is less of a problem compared with the earlier boats.

What we initially noted most is the so much lower loads on everything. As you discussed recently regarding hoisting the main with electrical winches, on the Dehler that was definitively a must and the 12mm dyneema haylard was only 6 mm during the last meter. On the Opium, with 2:1 set up my wife easily hoist the smaller but still significant main all the way by hand, only winching the last 20 cm. Low weight demanding lighter gear giving lower weight....

Still, the Dehler was a very nice boat and we mainly sold it due to finding it too big. But the joy of speeding along with the light Opium riding on the aft quarter is nothing you could experience very easily on the Dehler.

Regarding Erics recent note about boom wang I totally agree. On the Opium we mainly use the rather wide traweller for trimming the main and it is a feature I definitively would not be without on a boat. Sailing upwind it is better to switch to small jib on the inner forestay and keep the full main somewhat down the traveller, than keeping 105% genua and reefing main.

Regarding the X6 and comparison with oceanis 38 the X6 also has double rudders,

Anders
Thanks for the very informative post. It is very nice to have you and Eric aboard this thread. Regardinf the Hull of the Dehler 39 CWS and 43 CWS even if both are relatively narrow by modern standards, as you can see, they are quite different being the one from the 39 much more influenced by the IOR rule and the 43 a much modern one. Modern means not necessarily beamy I bet that difference has a significant influence in what regards rolling and downwind sailing.



As you and Eric pointed out a well designed boat based on solo racers (beamy and with all the beam brought back) rolls less and give a more easy downwind ride, following seas or not.

That does not mean that a well balanced and designed narrow boat is necessarily a roller and cause difficulties, or needs a full crew to control it going fast downwind. We can see that this narrow Luffe 40.04 goes nicely and fast downwind on autopilot with a remarkable directional stability:





It is just that on one of those light cruising boast derived from solo racers you can fly a lot more sail without losing directional stability and that allows even more speed in full control, even on autopilot.

However, as you had observed in the comparison between the Dehler 43 and the Opium 39 , narrow fast performance cruisers will have a better performance in light winds and if you noticed that the Dehler 43 had a better performance than the Opium in what regards that, on more modern and faster sailboats like the Salona 41 or the Luffe 40.04, that difference will be even bigger.

That has also been showed on that recent big test by Voile magazine where a Pogo 30 had a similar performance of a winner 9.00 in light winds, being the Pogo a much more lighter and sportive cruiser than the winner, with a much better overall sailing performance. Te winner has a much narrower hull, and certainly, as the Pogo, a very well designed hull.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 11-04-2013 at 09:49 AM.
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo and others,

Thanks for your discussion of the merits of modern wide beam boats for cruising vs. the more narrow ones in previous years. Based on what you have said and shown, we'll probably see more wide beam cruising boats in the US in the future, as people over here get adjusted more to the concept that a good cruising boat doesn't have to be narrow at the stern. After looking at the information that has been presented, especially on the Opium 39, I believe that the reason that the helm must be attended closely in downwind and quartering wind on my own boat probably has to do most with the nature of the chop that we get in the shallow water, and being inshore, we tend to have considerably less wind than in an offshore situation, resulting in lower downwind speed for the boat. If the boat speed was higher, the rudder and keel would have a more pronounced effect on directional stability, and the helmsman should have less work to do maintaining course.

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  #4936  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by NCC320 View Post
Paulo and others,

Thanks for your discussion of the merits of modern wide beam boats for cruising vs. the more narrow ones in previous years. Based on what you have said and shown, we'll probably see more wide beam cruising boats in the US in the future, as people over here get adjusted more to the concept that a good cruising boat doesn't have to be narrow at the stern. After looking at the information that has been presented, especially on the Opium 39, I believe that the reason that the helm must be attended closely in downwind and quartering wind on my own boat probably has to do most with the nature of the chop that we get in the shallow water, and being inshore, we tend to have considerably less wind than in an offshore situation, resulting in lower downwind speed for the boat. If the boat speed was higher, the rudder and keel would have a more pronounced effect on directional stability, and the helmsman should have less work to do maintaining course.
Yes, speed does give stability. Still there is a difference between the realy purist boats (Erics Pogo 12.50 is a good cruising version of these), and slightly heavier boats with a more "normal" interior, of which the Opium 39 is a exampel, even if it is still pretty light and wide. As Paulo stated before, I also "need" more stuff to be autark up here in the archipelago for longer periods so I am also carrying a lot of extras so crusing speed is not as high as Erics Pogo but still higher than most other boats I encounter.

And even in these more modest speeds and winds there is a difference in rolling compared with narrower boats (aft). But also more on the wind I can leave the boat at autopilot (if I wish even if that is very seldom). Above 90 degrees TWA the boat is still tracking like on rails. Crew falling asleep on wide side decks in 20-22 knots of TWS

Anders
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  #4937  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by NCC320 View Post
Paulo and others,

Thanks for your discussion of the merits of modern wide beam boats for cruising vs. the more narrow ones in previous years. Based on what you have said and shown, we'll probably see more wide beam cruising boats in the US in the future, as people over here get adjusted more to the concept that a good cruising boat doesn't have to be narrow at the stern. After looking at the information that has been presented, especially on the Opium 39, I believe that the reason that the helm must be attended closely in downwind and quartering wind on my own boat probably has to do most with the nature of the chop that we get in the shallow water, and being inshore, we tend to have considerably less wind than in an offshore situation, resulting in lower downwind speed for the boat. If the boat speed was higher, the rudder and keel would have a more pronounced effect on directional stability, and the helmsman should have less work to do maintaining course.
Yes, you are already seeing American brands going to beamy boats and bigger sterns and as European boats have a major penetration on the American market you will surely see in the future more beamy cruisers in the States.

Bavaria, Jeanneau, Dufour and Benetau are all doing cruiser models with the hull based on solo race boats and many times the designers they use are the ones that also design those racing boats.

I think you have now a pretty idea of the advantages or disadvantages of those boats in regards cruising but let me point out that the market in Europe in what regards performance cruisers is still dominated (and I think it will continue to be) by narrower boats (I have already explained the advantages).

First, Salona, Elan, Dehler, Arcona, IY, Grand soleil, Comet, X yachts and many others continue to make performance cruisers with a lot less beam than the one used on the main market cruisers using hulls not derived from the solo racers, but more "on the tradition" hulls. Brands like Pogo, Azuree or RM that make performance cruisers based on solo racers hull concept are a small minority.

So in fact you can choose your poison and what is the right compromise for you.

Regarding your boat behavior on those conditions I think you and Anders got it right. You say you have lots of chop and sea motion with not much wind and that's a difficult combination.

To have directional stability on those conditions with waves slightly on the side (following seas) you need power and speed, assuming the boat is well designed.

That has not to do with narrower or beamy hulls but with powerful boats and the Catalina is not a very powerful boat. Do that with a narrow Xp 33 (narrow boat) or with a beamy Pogo 30 or even with an Elan 320 (They may have to fly a geenaker if the wind is less than 9K) and I am sure you will have a lot of directional stability (and speed) with those boats.

Do the same with your boat with 13/15K of wind and I am almost sure that you will not have lack of directional stability and you will even be able to do that on autopilot.

Regards

Paulo
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Transat Jaques Fabre

Another one postponedand as for the mini transat there is a lot that I do not agree with the race committee decisions:

Manfred Ramspacher ( sporting director ) explained:

"The event sport direction the entire organization has made the decision to postpone the start until a more favorable situation arrives, which could be Thursday.”

“Winds 30 to 50 knots which could endanger the skippers and their boats are forecast. We are well aware that classes such as IMOCA could start. But our main concern is the overall safety of the crews.”

“Our decision is based on the forecast that we could get away from Le Havre but with difficult conditions and some uncertainly at the ras Blanchard, at Ushant, and some very difficult conditions at the start of the Bay of Biscay.

Our first aim is to ensure we can get maximum number of boats finishing Itajai.”

“We must maintain this solidarity in the event. The possibility of starting Wednesday or Thursday not for certain. We think it can happen, but it is still uncertain. The MOD 70 are still programmed to start on Wednesday or Thursday, we will decide in consultation with them.

An IMOCA race might have been able to start, and I can understand their disappointment, but we are a multi-class race. "


It does not make sense. They say that this is a multi-class race but they were not to start all at the same time, according with the planned.

If they were not to start at the same time (not even at the same day) if the Open60's have conditions to sail out and race why no start the race for them at the scheduled time and have a start on the other classes when the weather allows safety conditions from them?

Since there is not a honor line to anyone (different starting times) and this is strictly a class race I cannot understand why?

Anyway, it seems to me that the Open60 guys are pissed with the decision ("I can understand their disappointment").

Does anybody understand why they have taken the decision to not let go the Open60's?
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Old 11-04-2013
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Re: Transat Jaques Fabre

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Another one postponedand as for the mini transat there is a lot that I do not agree with the race committee decisions:

Manfred Ramspacher ( sporting director ) explained:

"The event sport direction the entire organization has made the decision to postpone the start until a more favorable situation arrives, which could be Thursday.”

“Winds 30 to 50 knots which could endanger the skippers and their boats are forecast. We are well aware that classes such as IMOCA could start. But our main concern is the overall safety of the crews.”

“Our decision is based on the forecast that we could get away from Le Havre but with difficult conditions and some uncertainly at the ras Blanchard, at Ushant, and some very difficult conditions at the start of the Bay of Biscay.

Our first aim is to ensure we can get maximum number of boats finishing Itajai.”

“We must maintain this solidarity in the event. The possibility of starting Wednesday or Thursday not for certain. We think it can happen, but it is still uncertain. The MOD 70 are still programmed to start on Wednesday or Thursday, we will decide in consultation with them.

An IMOCA race might have been able to start, and I can understand their disappointment, but we are a multi-class race. "


It does not make sense. They say that this is a multi-class race but they were not to start all at the same time, according with the planned.

If they were not to start at the same time (not even at the same day) if the Open60's have conditions to sail out and race why no start the race for them at the scheduled time and have a start on the other classes when the weather allows safety conditions from them?

Since there is not a honor line to anyone (different starting times) and this is strictly a class race I cannot understand why?

Anyway, it seems to me that the Open60 guys are pissed with the decision ("I can understand their disappointment").

Does anybody understand why they have taken the decision to not let go the Open60's?
Well, François Gabart was very diplomatic in his comments about the decision, and pretty much said that the IMOCA boats could have started but that he supported the RC's decision. What they say privately among themselves is another story, of course, but even though they could have gone racing doesn't mean they would have enjoyed themselves if they encountered 40-50 knots on the nose.

For the multi-hulls, an entirely different story, and nobody wants to see a repeat of several years ago when a good portion of the ORMA fleet was knocked out of the race, with boats breaking rigs and capsizing all over the place. Not good for the sponsors at all.

If this is not a weather fluke, the race organizers might need to start thinking about scheduling these races for a different time of year, although for the TJV it's summer time in Brazil when they arrive, so don't know if arriving in the Brazilian winter is any better. I'm not a meteo-maestro.

Meanwhile, out here in Western Long Island Sound, we had very good breeze for our Fall Laser Regatta yesterday, with a steady 12-18 knots, gusting to 20+ at times. Air temperature was about 9-10C and the water was still relatively warm, though cooler than a couple weeks ago. Despite having a very good finish at the Laser Masters North American Championship, a few weeks ago in Newport, under similar conditions, nothing went right yesterday and I finished very poorly. For some reason my concentration was quite bad and I think wearing the dry suit was not a good decision, as it was more difficult to move about in the boat during tacks and gybes - perhaps one reason I capsized more yesterday than the last year combined.

Anyway, now I will take a 3 month break from racing Lasers and do some traveling and spending even more time in the gym, getting ready for February midwinters in Florida, then Spring series here, in March. Maybe by then the MT will have started.
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo -

About writing a screenplay on the Goss-Dinelli rescue...

No, I am not in that business at all. I work in high tech customer support, mostly involving search engines, for a global multi-national corporation. But I have two degrees in English, and taught writing at university level for a few years before changing careers. So I think I could figure it out using screenwriting software. It would basically just be an adaptation of Goss' book and secondary source material on the subject. Probably have to consult with Goss and Dinelli to develop the personal / emotional / psychological side of things - in that respect, Goss is an interesting character, in that he is not "really" a sailor, per se, but more of an adventurer in the classical sense. That is, a man seeking new challenges and pushing himself to achieve things in the face of adversity.

What is most striking about his telling of the rescue story is how little emotion was involved on his side. When he was alerted by the RC that Dinelli was in trouble, he did not wrestle with the question of what to do or what risks to himself might be involved. He radioed his response then turned his boat upwind in a howling Southern Ocean gale, and sailed more than 400 miles back the way he came. And that was the easy part. Getting Dinelli off the boat was even more challenging, as he could have easily been lost at sea during the transfer.

I have not read Dinelli's account but I would suspect it is more emotionally charged. Anyway, I will give this some thought, as I've often felt this story deserves to be told on film, very much like the Shackleton Expedition rescue.
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