Interesting Sailboats - Page 495 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree1262Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #4941  
Old 11-04-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,160
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Transat Jaques Fabre

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
Well, François Gabart was very diplomatic in his comments about the decision, and pretty much said that the IMOCA boats could have started but that he supported the RC's decision. What they say privately among themselves is another story, of course, but even though they could have gone racing doesn't mean they would have enjoyed themselves if they encountered 40-50 knots on the nose.

For the multi-hulls, an entirely different story, and nobody wants to see a repeat of several years ago when a good portion of the ORMA fleet was knocked out of the race, with boats breaking rigs and capsizing all over the place. Not good for the sponsors at all.

..
The start of the Mod 70 was to happen only in some days, not for security reasons but for the boats to arrive at the same time at the finish line, so it would not be a problem. I never understood when they did wanted to make the start for the M50 multihulls but if the idea was to arrive all at approximately the same time then the Open 60 would have to start first (unless the M50 get really bad weather on the way).

Remains the 40 class racers that due to the circumstances could have started with the Multihulls.

Do you saw the weather? It is not going to be better on the next days, have a look:

Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe-à-Pitre

If they are going to wait for the right conditions for multihulls they risk to wait more than a week.

I hope that the multihulls are safer know then on that famous race in the 90's were several capsized...but then they got 70K and they found out that the hard way that the wing masts that were used, even going bare pools, offered enough surface for the wind to capsize the trimarans with about 70K wind.

One that capsized was Cammas, then a young talented skipper. He become famous because he capsized at the middle of the night and only called for help at 9.00 AM. When the SAR asked him when he had capsized and he told them that was many hours ago, in the night, they could not believe. Cammas explained that everything was well with the boat and with him in what regards safety and that he wanted not wake them up at the middle of the night. Remember it was blowing 70K outside and you can imagine how was the sea.

From that time on Cammas become a favorite sailor of mine and is flair and balls has been on pair with its talent. Now he is without doubt one of the great sailors of our time ...and he is still pretty young ..I bet that much more is going to be accomplished

Regards

Paulo
MrPelicano likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 11-04-2013 at 05:07 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4942  
Old 11-04-2013
MrPelicano's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Western Connecticut, USA
Posts: 719
Thanks: 10
Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts
Rep Power: 2
MrPelicano is on a distinguished road
Re: 2013 TJV

What a privilege if one could be the "third man" on the IMOCA 60 "Macif" with these two gentlemen.



Somehow it doesn't seem fair to the other IMOCA 60 competitors. A lot of talent in that fleet, but unless Bernard Stamm can get "Cheminées Poujoulat" to perform properly, the only competition I see for "Macif" will come from the wily veterans Vincent Riou and the irrepressible Jean Le Cam, who became one of my favorites in the last Vendée for his marvelously funny video journals. Indeed, he is the one with whom I would love to have dinner just for the pleasure (otherwise I would prefer to dine with MichDes, armed with a digital recorder and a notebook).

Everything Paulo wrote about Franck Cammas I totally agree with, but I think Michel Desjoyeux is also in that same category of brilliance on the water. François Gabart has been very fortunate to have him as a mentor. We should all be so fortunate.

Very interested to see how the new Ker-designed Class 40 "Concise 8" performs in its first real test since it was launched. Don't recall if the McConaghy-built boat has been covered in this thread by Paulo already. Definitely a very interesting boat.
__________________
We deal in lead, friend.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4943  
Old 11-04-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,160
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Transat Jaque Fabre / Bolt 37

I think you are forgetting Safran and Marc Guillemot, Pascal Bidégorry. I believe that those two are among the ones that can win.

Yes, I posted about the Ker 40class racer. I am also very curious about that boat and to see how Ker will perform in what regards designing solo boats but I would say that I don't expect much: After all the other designers have years of experience with solo racers and the design of a solo or short crew racing boat is very different from the design of a crewed racer. But I do love ker work and designs and secretly hope I am wrong.

Do you know the new "cheap" racer by ker (made in Turkey)? Well cheap but fast





Here is that post about the Ker 40class racer:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Ker is dominating IRC (in its class) with his One design 40 and not only, just remember that a Sydney 43 also designed by him won the next Sydney Hobart, but one thing is a design for crew racing other a design for solo racing and I am very curious to see how the new solo boat will perform.

Just to see the differences in design, besides beam, have a look at how the design of the transom is different, not in what regards beam being brought back but on the way the boat sits on the water and allows heeling.

The IRC racer:



and the 40 class solo racer:







The boat first race will be the Transat Jaques Fabre that will start soon.

By the way, ker is the one that has been working on the keels and rudders of Salonas with obvious results in speed and victories. The first Salona completely designed by Ker will be the 60 and I cannot wait to see the smaller Salonas completely designed by him.

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 11-13-2013 at 11:04 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4944  
Old 11-04-2013
Faster's Avatar
Just another Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New Westminster, BC
Posts: 14,604
Thanks: 67
Thanked 178 Times in 174 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Interesting how the Ker 40 and 37 Bolt depart so radically from the current drop of wide transoms/chines on offer everywhere else.. the boat must have an extremely effective keel/RM.

At :45 and 2:37 in the first video you an see also the incredibly tight sheeting angle on the non overlapping headsail.. I'm amazed they can carry that narrow an entry angle.. can the boat truly point that high?? Perhaps only in the flat water shown..?
__________________
Ron

1984 Fast/Nicholson 345 "FastForward"

".. there is much you could do at sea with common sense.. and very little you could do without it.."
Capt G E Ericson (from "The Cruel Sea" by Nicholas Monsarrat)
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4945  
Old 11-05-2013
JAndersB's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 467
Thanks: 6
Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 4
JAndersB is on a distinguished road
Re: Interesting Sailboats

A lot of meat on the rail of the Bolt 37....

Anders
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4946  
Old 11-05-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 679
Thanks: 5
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Rep Power: 2
robelz is on a distinguished road
Re: Viko 30s

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Very interesting and for 30 000 euros already with 19% of VAT

I don't think it is the same hull but a similar hull designed by Sergio Lupoli, that is also the designer of the Comet 31s. Transoms and hull design on that area are slightly different.
You are right: I read in a hurry and interpreted "shares the design with the comet" wrong... But a nice one anyway!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4947  
Old 11-05-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,160
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
On Design: Hull

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
Interesting how the Ker 40 and 37 Bolt depart so radically from the current drop of wide transoms/chines on offer everywhere else.. the boat must have an extremely effective keel/RM.

...
Yes, ker designs are a bit different specially in what regards hull transom design but then it is because he designs mostly top crewed racing boats. When he designs solo boats he does similar to the other designers:

Here you can see some other Ker designs. The last one is a solo boat the others are designed to be sailed by a crew.








Thae Bolt 37 hull can provide the best of two worlds: Great hull form stability, maximization of keel RM, little drag downwind or upwind even on light winds.

The hull is designed to sit on the side of the transom when heeled with not much drag. It is designed to sail with considerable heel upwind developing Max RM when "sited" on its lateral part of the hull. On that position the boat maximizes the big righting moment from the keel (big B/D ratio) and adds it to the big righting moment of the hull provided by that lateral part of the hull that than is almost a flat surface.

The solo boats and cruising boats influenced by them work other way: They are designed to sail with relatively little heel and the hull is designed to provide hull form at low angles of heel (like almost all boats) and to offer a big resistance to big heel angles, stopping the heel at about 20º. This provides a boat easier to sail and will stop rolling downwind.

the Ker hulls need a good crew to stop rolling downwind. The hull does not much to prevent that but offers very little drag in that position, providing the boat is perfectly balanced and that implies a constant trimming/wheel work.

If you look at modern fast designed cruiser-racers you will see that most are trying to achieve boats that can mix the two situations: a boat good for solo racing/sailing and also good for crewed racing/sailing, a compromise that as all compromises is not the perfect solution for any of the cases.

These boats even if, like Ker boats, have almost all beam pulled back, are not beamy boats, not if compared with solo racers or cruisers based on solo racers, but have on the hull design and particularly on the transom some of the characteristics that are typical of solo boats. You can see this clearly on JPK and Archambault cruiser-racers, boats that perform well on both worlds, solo and crewed:







As I have said on a previous post, while the modern crop of mass production tend to have hulls based on solo racers hull design, the performance cruisers tend to be a mix between the two worlds, with a more or less influence of solo racers.

Here you have some modern mass production performance cruisers that are a good example of that compromise, the Dehler 38 and the Elan 320:





and some modern mass production main market cruisers very influenced by solo racer hulls, the Dufour 500 and the Oceanis 41:





Other performance cruisers, or other main market cruisers, have a lesser influence of solo racers hulls and are more "in tradition", meaning that they are more influenced by traditional crewed racers and boats developed by ratting formulas. The truth is that racing boats were always the main influence in what regards design of sailboats, including cruising boats and the different ratting formulas had always a major influence on design.

Today solo racing boats, that have a much more open formula, have introduced a new parallel design direction. Its bigger influence on cruisers has to do with the fact that cruisers are generally solo sailed or have a short crew, like the solo racers and their hulls are more adapted to this situation.

Some modern performance cruisers on the "tradition", Xp 38, Arcona 410:





Some modern main market cruisers "on tradition, the Jeanneau 409 and the XC 50"





All great boats with different compromises, meaning different advantages and disadvantages What is important to each sailor is to understand the advantages and disadvantages of each type of design to be able to chose the right compromise for what he wants from a sailboat. Not all like to sail the same way and in the same conditions.

Regards

Paulo
EricKLYC and JAndersB like this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 11-05-2013 at 08:32 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4948  
Old 11-05-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,160
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
A lot of meat on the rail of the Bolt 37....

Anders
What do you expect from a crewed racing boat? The design is made taking that into consideration.

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4949  
Old 11-05-2013
MrPelicano's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Western Connecticut, USA
Posts: 719
Thanks: 10
Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts
Rep Power: 2
MrPelicano is on a distinguished road
Re: Bolt 37

I can't speak for the European market but I don't really understand the current crop of medium-length sport boats like the Bolt 37, the McConaghy 38, the Carkeek 40, the Farr 400, C&C 30 (just announced Mills' design), etc., for the North American market. When I look at what has been going on the past few years, there's an exodus from IRC and high performance sport boats to more benign one-designs like the J/70 and (perhaps) the J/88. Or to nothing at all, since I think overall participation in keel boat events is trending downward.

North America is increasingly looking like a One Design + PHRF world, with a few strong OD classes (J/70, Viper, Melges 20), a few OD classes on life support (J/105, Farr 30, Melges 24), and PHRF, which is designed to protect past investments not encourage new designs or fleet-building. I predict that IRC in North America is just waiting for someone to throw flowers on the grave.

In my pessimism about the NA scene, I can't envision who is going to buy a Bolt 37 or any of the other aforementioned boats. I know Steve Benjamin and others are trying to get a high performance thing going out here on the East Coast, but it's been slow going, largely for economic reasons, I'd imagine. And the West Coast is pretty mucha wasteland. At the most recent Rolex St. Francis Big Boat Regatta, the largest fleet was the Melges 24, and only because the Worlds was in town the following week. There were scarcely any "big boats" to speak of, and the class divisions pointed to the near futility of the whole situation. At least they let multihulls compete, which is progress, I suppose.

All the more reason to continue sailing my Laser and working on my cruising plans for the next few years.
__________________
We deal in lead, friend.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4950  
Old 11-05-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,160
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Bolt 37

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
I can't speak for the European market but I don't really understand the current crop of medium-length sport boats like the Bolt 37, the McConaghy 38, the Carkeek 40, the Farr 400, C&C 30 (just announced Mills' design), etc., for the North American market. When I look at what has been going on the past few years, there's an exodus from IRC and high performance sport boats to more benign one-designs like the J/70 and (perhaps) the J/88. Or to nothing at all, since I think overall participation in keel boat events is trending downward.

North America is increasingly looking like a One Design + PHRF world, with a few strong OD classes (J/70, Viper, Melges 20), a few OD classes on life support (J/105, Farr 30, Melges 24), and PHRF, which is designed to protect past investments not encourage new designs or fleet-building. I predict that IRC in North America is just waiting for someone to throw flowers on the grave.

In my pessimism about the NA scene, I can't envision who is going to buy a Bolt 37 or any of the other aforementioned boats. I know Steve Benjamin and others are trying to get a high performance thing going out here on the East Coast, but it's been slow going, largely for economic reasons, I'd imagine. And the West Coast is pretty mucha wasteland. At the most recent Rolex St. Francis Big Boat Regatta, the largest fleet was the Melges 24, and only because the Worlds was in town the following week. There were scarcely any "big boats" to speak of, and the class divisions pointed to the near futility of the whole situation. At least they let multihulls compete, which is progress, I suppose.

All the more reason to continue sailing my Laser and working on my cruising plans for the next few years.
I don't know much about the racing scene but its obvious that in Europe there is a battle between IRC and ORC for supremacy. Some years ago there was the intention to make from the two a single universal ratting but installed interests have been slowing the process. I believe that it will happen someday, sooner or later.

Let me point out that Ker boats have been dominating IRC on the top class on the world scene, including all, except the states were PHRF is still an obstacle to boat development and to fast boats. Both the other two ratting are more accurate by an order of magnitude.

I guess that racing market in US is as low as the market for performance cruisers. Most European brands that make them don't even give themselves the trouble of trying to sell them there and the Asiatic market is a lot more important than the American one : they sell more there.).

Like in the world of motor racing US seems to want to remain isolated and have its particular type of races while the rest of the world is sharing the main championships. Isolationism is never a good thing for development.

I believe that the more important single measure to alter the situation is to reserve PHRF for small club races and abolish that ratting on all medium and main ones, ratting them only in IRC (or ORC). That would allow the faster boats to win them all. But I guess that the Americans like too much to see Westsails 32 and the like winning races. Most Americans have old slow cruising boats ot performance boats fro other eras and they like to see old boats winning. That give them the sensation they have fast boats.

Believe it or not a owner of a Westsail 32, supposedly a very experienced sailor with experience in 150 different sailboats and more than 200 000Nm said this about the Westsail 32 performance in very light winds (3.1K):

"Does anyone here really believe that a Farr 38, Elan, or Figaro 35 would be able to do a lot better? Myth #1) The W-32 can’t point. In fact, under exactly identical conditions, it will point equal to the average 30’ racer cruiser. Myth #2) The W-32 can’t run. In fact it runs faster than most 36’ racer cruisers."

and fact is that many American sailors believe this kind of crap: After all the W32 was won major races

Regards

Paulo




Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 11-05-2013 at 11:47 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 7 (0 members and 7 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cruising sailboats for sale welch Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 10 04-25-2012 05:20 PM
THE Yacht Builder List T37Chef Boat Review and Purchase Forum 26 07-08-2011 05:51 AM
Noob wonderings and questions about sailing, life at sail and sailboats Vans General Discussion (sailing related) 49 06-20-2011 12:18 AM
A List of ALL sailboats made with layouts? Myblueheaven Boat Review and Purchase Forum 8 10-08-2010 11:32 AM
Failure to Navigate - interesting post on Panbo Blog & from the NewsReader Mass Bay Sailors 0 12-11-2006 06:15 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:11 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012