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  #4971  
Old 11-06-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

For those Canadian and Great Lakes sailors

From the Designer Mark Mills and C&C Yachts

The story of C&C Yachts is well known, their list of accomplishments far too long to be repeated here. Beginning in the mid 60’s C&C burst upon the international yacht racing scene.

Fast forward to 2013. A new builder with talent, vision, and drive is assembling a new team of designers, engineers, builders and sailors to carry on the C&C story. USWatercraft is the licensed builder for some of the best known production race boats ever. They build the J/22, J/24, J/80, and J/105 under license to J/Boats. USW is also the licensed builder of the Mumm 30 (Farr 30) and Farr 40. They have built everything from the Herreshoff Alerion 26 to a custom Kerr IRC 38.

In the beginning, C&C was known for world class design. Today, nothing less will do. C&C has employed Mark Mills to design our first two new boats. Mills Design is internationally recognized as a leader in performance yacht design. Mills Design - Leaders in Performance Yacht Design - Home. Their portfolio of winning 40 foot IRC & ORC is beyond compare. Their most recent design, the Mini-Maxi ‘Alegre’ is widely acknowledged as the most modern, competitive boat in that very hot class. Mills employs the same CFD and aero modeling tools on every project he undertakes for C&C.

About the new boats
Redline 41 - This boat was commended for its racing performance and cruising abilities, one of the first of its kind to be able to both cruise and race beautifully. Condor, the very first Redline 41, won overall in the 1972 Southern Ocean Racing Circuit (SORC).
Today, C& C Yachts recaptures the essence of the original Redline 41: fast, sleek, seaworthy, and performs exquisitely under sail, whether she is racing or cruising.
The new C&C Redline 41 is the ultimate racer / cruiser. Mark Mills designed the 41 to be fast, seaworthy, and safe. The inherent speed means that she can win races at any level of offshore racing as one has come to expect from a Mills design. The high volume, powerful hull means that the 41 can carry the accommodations and gear associated with a modern performance cruising boat.

C&C 30 One Design! This 30 foot race boat, designed by Mark Mills. The design of the new C&C 30 is pure race boat, complete with a fixed composite sprit to accommodate an asymmetric spinnaker, carbon fiber rig, square top mainsail, Dyneema lifelines, fabricated steel fin keel with lead bulb, top of the line hardware package, and of course, water-tight hatches
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward3 View Post
For those Canadian and Great Lakes sailors

From the Designer Mark Mills and C&C Yachts

The story of C&C Yachts is well known, their list of accomplishments far too long to be repeated here. Beginning in the mid 60’s C&C burst upon the international yacht racing scene.

Fast forward to 2013. A new builder with talent, vision, and drive is assembling a new team of designers, engineers, builders and sailors to carry on the C&C story. USWatercraft is the licensed builder for some of the best known production race boats ever. They build the J/22, J/24, J/80, and J/105 under license to J/Boats. USW is also the licensed builder of the Mumm 30 (Farr 30) and Farr 40. They have built everything from the Herreshoff Alerion 26 to a custom Kerr IRC 38.

In the beginning, C&C was known for world class design. Today, nothing less will do. C&C has employed Mark Mills to design our first two new boats. Mills Design is internationally recognized as a leader in performance yacht design. Mills Design - Leaders in Performance Yacht Design - Home. Their portfolio of winning 40 foot IRC & ORC is beyond compare. Their most recent design, the Mini-Maxi ‘Alegre’ is widely acknowledged as the most modern, competitive boat in that very hot class. Mills employs the same CFD and aero modeling tools on every project he undertakes for C&C.

About the new boats
Redline 41 - This boat was commended for its racing performance and cruising abilities, one of the first of its kind to be able to both cruise and race beautifully. Condor, the very first Redline 41, won overall in the 1972 Southern Ocean Racing Circuit (SORC).
Today, C& C Yachts recaptures the essence of the original Redline 41: fast, sleek, seaworthy, and performs exquisitely under sail, whether she is racing or cruising.
The new C&C Redline 41 is the ultimate racer / cruiser. Mark Mills designed the 41 to be fast, seaworthy, and safe. The inherent speed means that she can win races at any level of offshore racing as one has come to expect from a Mills design. The high volume, powerful hull means that the 41 can carry the accommodations and gear associated with a modern performance cruising boat.

C&C 30 One Design! This 30 foot race boat, designed by Mark Mills. The design of the new C&C 30 is pure race boat, complete with a fixed composite sprit to accommodate an asymmetric spinnaker, carbon fiber rig, square top mainsail, Dyneema lifelines, fabricated steel fin keel with lead bulb, top of the line hardware package, and of course, water-tight hatches
FWIW, here's a picture of the original C&C Redline 41 "Condor":



I was initially very skeptical when I heard about this project, despite the fact that Mills is involved, for whom I have the highest regard. However, now that I learn US Watercraft is involved, I'm more optimistic about things. Given their track record, build quality will not be a problem. And the Mills designs should be bulletproof and fast. So the only question that remains to be answered is whether or not there is a market in North America for these boats. I predict the 41 will have a better chance of success in the current NA market. Can't see the 30 succeeding here, but perhaps in Europe, where great American boats go to be recognized and appreciated. Hope they do very well with both, however, and salvage what's left of the C&C reputation.
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Link to the new Redline and C&C 30 page.. 30 looks like a melges competitor...

http://www.c-cyachts.com/annapolis.pdf
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Re: Voyage small fast boats.

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Originally Posted by Rhys05 View Post
Paulo-

Yep, that's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for: European boats that would fit into the same niche as the C&C 99 (which, like you said is no longer in production, I was just using it as as starting place). I'm certain that there are a good number of boats that fit in that envelope that I haven't heard of simply because they aren't on this side of the "pond." As to the "voyaging" vs "cruising" thing, I guess my ideal would be a voyaging boat (your definition) that makes a PASSABLE cruising boat once it is at far-flung destinations. I want to see what is at the smaller end of the spectrum than the ~40+ boats since it is likely that I'll be more likely to get a newer/faster boat in the 30-34 ft range in my price range than the larger ones. Thanks for the suggestions so far, I may have to look at the RM 880/890, those look pretty nice.

Brandon
According to your definition: " As to the "voyaging" vs "cruising" thing, I guess my ideal would be a voyaging boat (your definition) that makes a PASSABLE cruising boat once it is at far-flung destinations"
I would say that definitely the boat that I know that fits better is the RM. If you are talking as mostly coastal voyage with some passages the 890 will do but if you are talking about crossing oceans then the 1060 will be much more suited.

They are not passable cruising boats but very good cruising boats and their are boats also thought to voyage, even from the interior when the weather is really nasty (the previous model):



They can even race and not be ridicolous, I mean In Europe, on the US it would be a very fast boat



They have not a dealer in the US only in Maritinique:

RM Yachts : A&C Yacht Brokers, acheter ou vendre votre bateau RM Yachts sur bateaux-antilles.fr

They have been growing so much that maybe they are interested in finding one if you are interested in buying a boat. Talk to them. If I understood you well, this is the boat that you want.

Regarding more similar as the C&C 99, I and on the sizes you want, I would point you to the Elan 320 or 360. I have posted recently about boat boats doe a search on the thread engine and you will find the posts.

I would say that the 320 is not far away from the performance of the C&C99, maybe even better but will be more suited to voyage and solo sailing. The 360 would not only be more suited but faster too. To have more information you can look at boat tests on the Elan 310 and 350. Same hull and approximately the same characteristics, even if the new boats are slightly faster and have a better interior. Lots of information about those two boats on this thread.

Yacht, Sail, Boat, Yachts - ELAN YACHTS | Home

Elan has a dealer in the states:

Sound Yachting

Regards

Paulo
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Redline 41

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
Link to the new Redline and C&C 30 page.. 30 looks like a melges competitor...

http://www.c-cyachts.com/annapolis.pdf
The Redline 41 looks kike a typical Mills design that means a top performance cruiser with a special incidence in racing. It is a relatively narrow boat (3.68m) with a big draft (2.50m) and a huge B/D ratio (51%) and very light (6400kg). It is a boat designed to sail with a lot of heel (to take advantage of that huge ballast) and it will not going to be a easy boat to sail, specially by a short crew. That huge ballast and the big forces transmitted to the hull demands a very expensive structure. This is going to be an expensive boat.

This means that C&C has turned more to racing than to fast cruising and this boat will not be an alternative to European mass production performance cruisers that will certainly be able to sell in the States at a considerable lesser price. I am thinking in First, Dehler, Salona and Elan.

We know that those brands sell very little in the States (some don't even have dealers there) and that means that the market on that area is very small.

We know for instance that the J122 and J111 are made in France because it makes mores sense to make it there since the majority of those boats are sold in Europe.

To what market points the C&C 41? To the American racing market? By what Pelicano says there are not such a market in the states where IRC is almost in extinction and to sell it to Europe it makes no sense because it will arrive there much more expensively than other Mills designs made in Turkey.

I believe that it will happen to this very nice design the same that had happened to Santa Cruz that had tried about the same thing with the same type of boat. I don't understand why a big name like C&C is making this type of boat a boat with a very narrow market. That is for small brands like Summit or the many small European companies that make high performance cruiser-racers. For a company that was big once and that we all wanted to see big again? I don't think so

"The new C&C Redline 41 is the ultimate racer / cruiser. Mark Mills designed the 41 to be fast, seaworthy, and safe. The inherent speed means that she can win races at any level of offshore racing as one has come to expect from a Mills design. The high volume, powerful hull means that the 41 can carry the accommodations and gear associated with a modern performance cruising boat. "

This time, contrary to what was said on the Bluejacket advertise I believe this boat will be a top racer but I doubt very much that it can be a good performance cruiser. In what regards that the Bluejacket 40 it will be a better performance cruiser but not as fast neither a top contender. In the end I believe the boats will cost about the same price.

What is the boat you think it will sell more? Is any of those boats viable as a production boat in the states?

A pity because the Redline 41 is a very nice design:









Regards

Paulo
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  #4976  
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Re: Redline 41

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The Redline 41 looks kike a typical Mills design that means a top performance cruiser with a special incidence in racing. It is a relatively narrow boat (3.68m) with a big draft (2.50m) and a huge B/D ratio (51%) and very light (6400kg). It is a boat designed to sail with a lot of heel (to take advantage of that huge ballast) and it will not going to be a easy boat to sail, specially by a short crew. That huge ballast and the big forces transmitted to the hull demands a very expensive structure. This is going to be an expensive boat.

This means that C&C has turned more to racing than to fast cruising and this boat will not be an alternative to European mass production performance cruisers that will certainly be able to sell in the States at a considerable lesser price. I am thinking in First, Dehler, Salona and Elan.

We know that those brands sell very little in the States (some don't even have dealers there) and that means that the market on that area is very small.

We know for instance that the J122 and J111 are made in France because it makes mores sense to make it there since the majority of those boats are sold in Europe.

To what market points the C&C 41? To the American racing market? By what Pelicano says there are not such a market in the states where IRC is almost in extinction and to sell it to Europe it makes no sense because it will arrive there much more expensively than other Mills designs made in Turkey.

I believe that it will happen to this very nice design the same that had happened to Santa Cruz that had tried about the same thing with the same type of boat. I don't understand why a big name like C&C is making this type of boat a boat with a very narrow market. That is for small brands like Summit or the many small European companies that make high performance cruiser-racers. For a company that was big once and that we all wanted to see big again? I don't think so

"The new C&C Redline 41 is the ultimate racer / cruiser. Mark Mills designed the 41 to be fast, seaworthy, and safe. The inherent speed means that she can win races at any level of offshore racing as one has come to expect from a Mills design. The high volume, powerful hull means that the 41 can carry the accommodations and gear associated with a modern performance cruising boat. "

This time, contrary to what was said on the Bluejacket advertise I believe this boat will be a top racer but I doubt very much that it can be a good performance cruiser. In what regards that the Bluejacket 40 it will be a better performance cruiser but not as fast neither a top contender. In the end I believe the boats will cost about the same price.

What is the boat you think it will sell more? Is any of those boats viable as a production boat in the states?

A pity because the Redline 41 is a very nice design:

Regards

Paulo
It is pure speculation on my part, but I suspect that the Redline 41 is the Mills design that the New York Yacht Club should have chosen in 2005 when they, instead, decided to go with the Frers-designed Swan 42 built by Nautor's. Not that this is the design that Mills submitted, but the specifications pretty closely match the NYYC design requirements and, as Paulo suggested,the price point will probably end up being pretty close to what the Swan 42 owners ended up paying (somewhere in the $650K range, IIRC). You decide:



I spent the 2011 and 2012 seasons racing on a Swan 42 and they're nice enough boats, though nothing special. Build quality in the early hulls was a bit sketchy - in big breeze at Key West there was noticeable flexing in the hull when the rig was wound up, leading to bulkheads separating from the hull, etc. Presumably this was addressed in later hulls.

So, I guess I'd say that there is a market for this kind of thing, but the economy right now isn't what it was in 2005, when NYYC pulled the trigger on the 42s. I guess we'll see how it goes.

Let me add that US Watercraft bought the C&C trademark and is building and marketing the boats on their own, which I think is a first for them. This might be just what the doctor ordered to breathe new life into that classic brand, particularly working with a top designer like Mills. Sort of like what McConaghy has been doing lately with Jason Ker.

Certainly very exciting times in the yachting industry. The global economy is a disaster but interesting boats continue to appear like clockwork. I'm very grateful.
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Re: Redline 41

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Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
It is pure speculation on my part, but I suspect that the Redline 41 is the Mills design that the New York Yacht Club should have chosen in 2005 when they, instead, decided to go with the Frers-designed Swan 42 built by Nautor's. ...
So, I guess I'd say that there is a market for this kind of thing, but the economy right now isn't what it was in 2005, when NYYC pulled the trigger on the 42s. I guess we'll see how it goes.

Let me add that US Watercraft bought the C&C trademark and is building and marketing the boats on their own, which I think is a first for them. This might be just what the doctor ordered to breathe new life into that classic brand, particularly working with a top designer like Mills. Sort of like what McConaghy has been doing lately with Jason Ker.

Certainly very exciting times in the yachting industry. The global economy is a disaster but interesting boats continue to appear like clockwork. I'm very grateful.
Yes I agree, I hope the boat will be a success but the Swan 42 is not a success as a performance cruiser. The boat was only sold in a considerable number because won a contest and was chosen by some rich guys as a one design cruiser-racer for them to play with. The 42 is not even on the list of boats that Swan makes now.

Regarding the two boats there are some considerable differences: The Swan has a bit more than 70cms on the waterline but most of all it is a much more beamier boat, almost 30cms more. The Redline is 850kg lighter. I believe that the Redline will be more fun to sail than the swan but a more difficult boat, specially with a short crew.

The Swan 42 was designed as a club racer and not really as a performance cruiser. On the Redline their intention is to make a dual purpose boat:

"The original C&C Company was reaching the height of their reputation building winning race boats, when they built a prototype of the original Redline 41. This boat was commended for its racing performance and cruising abilities, one of the first of its kind to be able to both cruise and race beautifully.

Today, C& C Yachts recaptures the essence of the original Redline 41: fast, sleek, seaworthy, and performs exquisitely under sail, whether she is racing or cruising."


Redline 41 | C&C Yachts

Maybe I am not seeing it right but the boat seems to me to be too extreme to be a good performance cruiser, if we see a cruiser as essentially a solo boat or duo boat. His narrow hull and huge power will be a handful to a solo sailor or to a couple. Time will tell

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 11-06-2013 at 11:30 PM.
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Old 11-07-2013
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Stream 40





The place where there are designed and built more boats of the Redline type is Italy. France is the paradise in what regards fast solo or short crew boat designs and Italy seems to be the same in what regards fast crewed boat designs, boats that are meant to fast cruising but most of all to race. Passion for fast sailboats runs high on both countries.

A very good example of that is the new Stream 40 designed by Gianluca Adragna team. The boat shares the spirit and market target with Redline but with a different type of hull.





Take a look at the stern:





It seems that the type of stern developed by Ker (that he talked about on a previous post) is being replicated by other designers.

The overall length on the Stream 40 is smaller (11.99 to 12.35m) but the LWL surprisingly is bigger (10.70 to 10.55m). It is lighter (5.500 to 6.400kg) and considerably beamier ( 4.00 to 3.68m2) Finally in what regards draft the Stream has a more moderated one (2.35 to 2.50m). They don't mention the Ballast on the Stream but I am sure that the B/D ratio is smaller than the one on the Redline 41.

Regarding performance cruising all this criteria makes the Stream 40 a better boat (in what regards hull design). Not only the draft is small but the boat is less radical with a higher roll moment of inertia. I mean the Redline with that very low CG and much lesser hull form stability will tend to roll a lot more when it is not "tied" by its sails, I mean on those conditions where the wind is very light but the seas big, when motoring or at an anchorage. The bigger roll moment of inertia and more initial stability will make it also the Stream 40 an easier boat to sail, specially with a smaller crew. The Red line will sail upwind with a lot more heel than the Stream and will tend to roll more downwind. not the ideal for cruising.

On the Stram 40 they also developed the safety parameters that are not only important to race but even more for cruising. The boat has a frontal crash box and a new system to connect the keel to the hull and distribute the forces all around. It is studied to resist 3g forces and resist groundings (all the hull will deform with a grounding, absorbing energy before returning to the original form).



Regarding the interior we did not see yet the Redline one, except on a plan and that does not say much about real quality. He have photos from the Stream interior and they show a good cruising interior for a very fast performance cruiser but one that could be a lot better if they used an interior designer, at least in what regards color.

The colors scheme is just plain wrong and while the dark wood of the cabinets absorbes all the light on the top, the bright red of the upholstery given a red tan to all ambient not to mention the very dark "floor" on a boat with not much imterior light. I can do a lot better and I am not specialized in boat interiors as many Architects are. Just terrible and it is a shame because the interior, not considering that disaster, is not bad at all. Not difficult to change considering that this is certainly a semi custom boat.







You can see more photos here:

Stream 40 Gallery ? Adragna Yacht DesignAdragna Yacht Design

while developed with a dual purpose these boats will be more used for racing than for cruising. So what about pure performance while racing with a crew?






We can only look at weight, hull form and sail area and take a guess. Regarding sail area the Stream 40 has a bigger main and a smaller jib (52.00 to 51.05m2 - 38.00 to 41.20m2) and in what regards Spinnaker they both can carry the same sail area: 140 m2

The sail areas are similar, the Redline is narrower probably with a superior RM from the keel while the Stream has considerably more hull form stability and is also considerably lighter. Overall I bet the boats will have a very close performance with some advantages to one or another depending on points of sail and sea conditions. Maybe one day will see these two racing together and we can really see what they are worth comparatively.

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Last edited by PCP; 11-07-2013 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 11-07-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

I continue my crew-weight line of remarks. On this Stream 40 with 10 crew we have and additional weight of around 900-1000 kg to add to empty weight. And when trying to plane or going downwind in light wind you have very little use of that weight. My Opium 39 with 3 of us in crew has a lower overall weight! Is it not better to put that weight in the keel or using hull form? At least you do not need to muster 10 people.

I guess some of the answer lays in the ratings but still I think it is a littlel bit silly when we talk of boat weights and ballast ratios and these types of boats really are designed for an additional (living) weight of 900 kg.

Anders
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On design: Crew weight, boat speed and hull design.

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Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
I continue my crew-weight line of remarks. On this Stream 40 with 10 crew we have and additional weight of around 900-1000 kg to add to empty weight. And when trying to plane or going downwind in light wind you have very little use of that weight. My Opium 39 with 3 of us in crew has a lower overall weight! Is it not better to put that weight in the keel or using hull form? At least you do not need to muster 10 people.

I guess some of the answer lays in the ratings but still I think it is a littlel bit silly when we talk of boat weights and ballast ratios and these types of boats really are designed for an additional (living) weight of 900 kg.

Anders
The answer is no.

There is nothing like reality: If professional racing crews that can race on the same boat with a small crewed, solo or with the maximum crew allowed chose never to race with a small crew and almost always race with near the bigger crew allowed that's because they can be faster that way and this has nothing to do with ratting because unfortunately boats with bigger crews are not penalized and vice verse.

Obviously a bigger weight on the ballast does not beat the moving ballast provided by a good crew.

A more beamier boat develops more drag and boats with huge beams are not faster, except with a solo or duo crew and just because it is impossible to sail a boat like the Stream 40 at 100% with a solo sailor. Even less with the Redline. A lighter boat is not always faster, specially in some points of sail and sea conditions.

Take a look at the beam of an VOR 60 and the beam of and an Open60. A lot more on the Open60 and a VOR 60 is faster, providing that someone does not try to sail it solo Both are boats designed for the trade winds and downwind sailing. Have a VOR 60 racing upwind and an even smaller boat like a Ker 50 can be faster than the VOR.

Most races, inshore or offhore, except trans oceanic races are races with mixed winds, upwind and downwind, were performance cruisers derived from ocean Solo racers are not overall as fast in real time. I have showed it here many times with race results and performances.

Now, another thing is to know what is the faster type of boat with a solo sailor or a duo crew on a offshore or coastal race but not one on the trade winds. Those races (solo and duo) are becoming more and more popular as divisions on big classic races. I am yet looking at it. Not enough data yet to take conclusions

Regards

Paulo
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