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  #4981  
Old 11-07-2013
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Re: On design: Crew weight, boat speed and hull design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The answer is no.

There is nothing like reality: If professional racing crews that can race on the same boat with a small crewed, solo or with the maximum crew allowed chose never to race with a small crew and almost always race with near the bigger crew allowed that's because they can be faster that way and this has nothing to do with ratting because unfortunately boats with bigger crews are not penalized and vice verse.

Obviously a bigger weight on the ballast does not beat the moving ballast provided by a good crew.

A more beamier boat develops more drag and boats with huge beams are not faster, except with a solo or duo crew and just because it is impossible to sail a boat like the Stream 40 at 100% with a solo sailor. Even less with the Redline. A lighter boat is not always faster, specially in some points of sail and sea conditions.

Take a look at the beam of an VOR 60 and the beam of and an Open60. A lot more on the Open60 and a VOR 60 is faster, providing that someone does not try to sail it solo Both are boats designed for the trade winds and downwind sailing. Have a VOR 60 racing upwind and an even smaller boat like a Ker 50 can be faster than the VOR.

Most races, inshore or offhore, except trans oceanic races are races with mixed winds, upwind and downwind, were performance cruisers derived from ocean Solo racers are not overall as fast in real time. I have showed it here many times with race results and performances.

Now, another thing is to know what is the faster type of boat with a solo sailor or a duo crew on a offshore or coastal race but not one on the trade winds. Those races (solo and duo) are becoming more and more popular as divisions on big classic races. I am yet looking at it. Not enough data yet to take conclusions

Regards

Paulo
Yes, but my main concern is not racing but performance cruising. I am not claiming that a Bolt 37 will be used for cruising or that my Opium is to be used around the cans. I am more fascinated by the frequent remarks on how much cruising gear will load down a boat when it very well can be offset by a bigger or heavier crew, which never seems to taken ito consideration. And especially in cruising those big family members will not sit on the rail.

As you said, buying for example a Stream40 (or as I and many others did before, an Elan 333) and use it for cruising would be pretty demanding because the boat really need those 10 people on the rail or a much heavier keel or a beamier hull (aft) with perhaps double rudders. With its hull and used for performance cruising the weight, due to heavier keel, should be perhaps 1000 kg more before we start comparing weight and ballast ratios with other cruisers.

I am with you regarding hull shapes, drags etc. but I still find it fascinating when these race machines are built as light as possible and then loaded down with so much people that they hardly can keep the cockpit dry when leaving harbour.

Shure, our new interesting boats as represented by Pogo, Opium and others are a reaction on this to some extent but I wonder if there is not still some more innovative thinking to be done. Archambault A35 and other similars might be a good middle road, or then something still not developed. Just some thoughts

Anders
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  #4982  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

TJV tartet this morning. While IMOCAs, Multi50s and MOD70s do the whole race in one, Class40s will head to Roscoff (160 miles from Le Havre) and wait for the storm to go by.
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  #4983  
Old 11-07-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward3 View Post
"From the Designer Mark Mills and C&C Yachts

....Mills Design is internationally recognized as a leader in performance yacht design. Mills Design - Leaders in Performance Yacht Design - Home. Their portfolio of winning 40 foot IRC & ORC is beyond compare. ...
Hi Edward,

First I thought you had wrote this but it is clearly a quote and I don't believe that it is from Mills but from someone from C&C, showing clearly the immodesty and exaggeration that Europeans will find typically American

No doubt that Mills is a leading performance yacht designer, one among few but being his portfolio in 40 ft IRC & ORC without compare?

It seems they never heard about Ker and his Ker 39 and Ker 40?

Results | Ker Yacht Design

Mills Design - Leaders in Performance Yacht Design - Results

I hope that what they say about the Redline 41 will not be as exaggerated.

I don't understand this type of statements that I don't think are good regarding to be credible regarding their products. Maybe it is in America since several brands display this kind of exaggeration and I am thinking about the "best anchor in the world" or at least advertised as that by an American firm

Regards

Paulo
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  #4984  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

They say A leader (equals "one of the leaders"), not THE leader...

"beyond compare" might be too much
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  #4985  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by robelz View Post
They say A leader (equals "one of the leaders"), not THE leader...

"beyond compare" might be too much
I would interpret the "a leader" as the leader but then I guess I also have other languages than english as the first language.

Anders
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  #4986  
Old 11-07-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
I would interpret the "a leader" as the leader but then I guess I also have other languages than english as the first language.

Anders
Well, let's be fair. Ker and Mills are the two top designers for IRC/ORC in the 38-50 foot range.

Those who follow these things know very well that there are a significant number of NAs who have been designing successful IRC/ORC boats for several years. But I suspect that if you took a poll among top NAs worldwide, Ker and Mills would probably be consensus choices as "leaders".

Fortunately for me, I like them both. But I also like J/V designs, VPLP designs, Johnstone designs, etc. There are simply a lot of really amazing designs out there - perhaps more variety than at any other time in the history of yacht design.
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  #4987  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo, never believe everything you read on the intronet!!!
Being from this side of the pond... i'm fond of Mills after racing on one of his 40's. Raced against a few Kers and find all the new designs good competition.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Hi Edward,

First I thought you had wrote this but it is clearly a quote and I don't believe that it is from Mills but from someone from C&C, showing clearly the immodesty and exaggeration that Europeans will find typically American

No doubt that Mills is a leading performance yacht designer, one among few but being his portfolio in 40 ft IRC & ORC without compare?

It seems they never heard about Ker and his Ker 39 and Ker 40?

Results | Ker Yacht Design

Mills Design - Leaders in Performance Yacht Design - Results

I hope that what they say about the Redline 41 will not be as exaggerated.

I don't understand this type of statements that I don't think are good regarding to be credible regarding their products. Maybe it is in America since several brands display this kind of exaggeration and I am thinking about the "best anchor in the world" or at least advertised as that by an American firm

Regards

Paulo
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  #4988  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Talking about Mills: what happened to this one? Has it ever been built?

Mills Design - Leaders in Performance Yacht Design - 38' Shorthanded Cruiser-Racer
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  #4989  
Old 11-07-2013
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Re: On design: Crew weight, boat speed and hull design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
..

As you said, buying for example a Stream40 ...and use it for cruising would be pretty demanding because the boat really need those 10 people on the rail or a much heavier keel or a beamier hull (aft) with perhaps double rudders. With its hull and used for performance cruising the weight, due to heavier keel, should be perhaps 1000 kg more before we start comparing weight and ballast ratios with other cruisers.
....
Shure, our new interesting boats as represented by Pogo, Opium and others are a reaction on this to some extent but I wonder if there is not still some more innovative thinking to be done. Archambault A35 and other similars might be a good middle road, or then something still not developed. Just some thoughts

Anders
They don't give the ballast on the Stream 40 but being a fast sailboat it will be a considerable one taking into consideration his big draft and torpedo keel, proportionally considerably more than on the average cruising sailboat, I am sure, that the Stream 40 is a very stiff boat without nobody seating on the rail. Not only because it has a very deep keel and a considerable ballast but because it is a beamy boat.

All those guys on the rail does not mean that the boat needs them there to sail properly, it means that in any boat, including the Opium or the Pogo 12.50, if you sit a large crew on the rail the boat sails with less heel and it is faster.

Narrow boats to be stiff only need to have more RM coming from the keel than beamier boats. The Redline 41 has almost the double of the B/D ratio of an Opium 39 and a considerable bigger draft. The boat will sail with more heel but that's all. I have no doubts that the Redline 41 or the Stream 40 will be more stiff (till 30ļ) than the Opium 39 even without anybody seating on the rail. Stiffness in a sailboat means power and while the Opium 39 is a very fast performance cruiser this two are not only fast performance cruisers but mostly top racers.

You can have an idea about the power of the boat and its stiffness by the sail area it can fly: the Opium 39 is slightly heavier than the Stream 40 but only can carry a upwind sail area of 63.2m2 while the Stream can carry 90m2 ( both boats with jib) and downwind the Opium 39 can carry 166.3m2 and the Stream 192.0m2.

The Stream is the stiffer and more powerful boat, also the boat with less drag. While racing the crew is there to maximize the boat performance not because the boat cannot sail or cruise perfectly without the crew on the rail.

On races where the 40class racers are raced with a crew you will see them seated on the rail as in any other boat even if the boat has water ballast, a thing that neither the Opium 39 or the Pogo 12.50 have.

In the 40class racers and Open60, the water ballasts are there, not because the boat needs them to sail but to maximize performance, as a crew does on IRC and ORC racers.

The difficulty I had talked about has nothing to do with the stiffness of the boat but with the boat being more "nervous" and in need of constant adjustments to be sailed near 100%. The Stream would not have any problem being used solo or with a short crew if sailed conservatively (80%) and even so it will be with all probability faster than am Opium 39 sailed near 100%. Sure, the Opium would be less nervous and more easy, specially downwind, but that does not means faster.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 11-07-2013 at 03:04 PM.
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  #4990  
Old 11-07-2013
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Mills 38ft Solo performance cruiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by robelz View Post
Talking about Mills: what happened to this one? Has it ever been built?

Mills Design - Leaders in Performance Yacht Design - 38' Shorthanded Cruiser-Racer
I want one





Gorgeous design (2011). No I did not knew this design and I don't believe it has been made.

This boat is not very beamy for a solo boat (does anybody fiend the dimensions of this boat?) and has a considerable ballast in a deep torpedo.

It has a hull design that make it easy downwind. I believe this design is not appropriated for solo transats (not stable or easy enough downwind - not beamy enough) but it would the perfect type of boat to win that new duo class that now is part of all classic races. This boat seems to me a very good compromise between upwind, downwind sailing and easiness.

The size it is also the best for an experienced but not necessarily a top sailor and it would be also perfect as a performance cruiser with an overall great performance. I like it very much

This type of design would have made a lot more sense regarding C&C and the Redline 41 if what they really wanted was a duo boat, balanced in what regards racing and cruising.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 11-07-2013 at 03:32 PM.
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