Interesting Sailboats - Page 50 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree1266Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #491  
Old 12-25-2010
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,191
Thanks: 21
Thanked 98 Times in 81 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by myocean View Post
So here we can compare a Pogo 12.50 with an Elan 380:
(black= J409 Red=D40e Blue=E380 Brown=E350 Green=Pogo 12.50)

OK, The Pogo is a bit longer, but the differences seem to be quite significant. Still this are all theoretical values...

6K wind at 70º = 6K (6.7)(6.4)(6.2) (6.8)

speed 8K wind at 60º = 7K (7.3)(7.1) (6.9) (7.7)

12K wind at 70º = 8K (8.2) (7.8) (7.2) (8.91)

25K wind at 110º = 10K (10.6) (10) (9.8) (13.7)

25K wind at 150º = 10.5K (10.8) (11.2) (11.2) (15.5).



Yes it is! However I wonder how important that is. Aren't other things much more important when you are on your way?
I think more interesting is the question how much more bumpy a ride with the Pogo is...

A real comfort-plus of the Pogo is the cockpit: Really huge and without an annoying wheel.
That's unfair to compare the Pogo 12.50 with the Elan 380 . I have compared it with the Jeanneau 409 because they cost about the same price and with the 350, that is less expensive (a lot) just to show what a great performer and cruiser that boat is. To be fair you should compare ir with the dufour 40e or the Elan 410, that are a bit less expensive than the Pogo.

If the boat is for racing, it would not be a good option (contrary to the Elan 350) because the boat is too penalyzed. For fast cruising, both the Elan 410 and the Dufour 40e have a much better interior, are more comfortable going upwind and cost a bit less (if we consider the boats with similar equipment)but the Pogo will have an advantage in what regards sailing in shallow waters. Well, not sailing , just to anchor because while sailing its draft is even bigger.

Regarding speed, from a comparative test with a Dufour 40e, it turns out that both boats will sail close to the wind at the same speed, but with a better angle for the Dufour, that the Dufour is more comfortable and that you can only notice a difference downwind, with the Pogo going several knots faster than the Dufour. The conclusion from the testers was that the Pogo is an Ocean bird and that it can only really make a big difference on Ocean Passages with trade winds.

Now, if you guys are interested in the Pogo, that is a great boat, I guess you should wait some months to have a look at the new Elan 40. The 410 is faster, but I bet that the new Elan 40 is going to be a bullet. That's not hard to figure: it is going to be a 350 with more 50cms

http://www.eureka.si/PS2009/files/ORC/SLO410.PDF

Regards

Paulo
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #492  
Old 01-04-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,191
Thanks: 21
Thanked 98 Times in 81 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Dufour 405 / Jeanneau SO 409 comparative boat test

First comparative test for the Jeanneau 409 and with a great boat, the Dufour 405, last year's European boat of the year:





Dufour 405 – Dufour 405 Sailboat – Boat factsheet

I am not going to talk about the interior (the Dufour has two options,the one above and other with a "classic" galley) neither about style or storage space. On all those items I prefer the Jeanneau, even if I also like the Dufour specially in the Classic version. I will only talk about performance.

Both boats were equipped with the performance rig. The Jeanneau should have a clear advantage, lighter 7450kg against 8990kg, stiffer (more ballast/displacement) and with more sail (93m2 against 83m2), it should have no problem beating the Dufour.

Both boats were not in the water at the same time (same crew). First in the water was the jeanneau and two hours later the Dufour. The wind was a bit more strong with the Dufour: 20K. With the Jeanneau about 16-18k.

Both boats go well against the wind (45º true wind). The Jeanneau makes 6,5/7k at 45º with 12k wind, but with 16/18k, with a bit more sea, just maintains the speed. The Dufour with 20k wind (all the sail up) at 45º makes about the same.

Downwind, with asymmetric and 18k wind the Jeanneau makes 8/9k with a surf a 10.6. with 20k wind and without asymmetric the Dufour makes 8.5/9.5 and with the asymetric it makes 10k with some surfs at 11k.

They have called a match null and say that with weaker winds probably the Jeanneau will be faster (and I agree).

Both boats show a somewhat heavy steering. I know what they mean I felt the same about the Dufour 425. Not heavy for a cruiser, but heavy for a performance boat.

Between the two I would still prefer the jeanneau but I am a bit disappointed with the jeanneau performance. The boat seems to be quite limited by hull speed and shows none of the characteristics of a semi-planning hull. Probably it will be faster than the Dufour but only marginally and mainly in week winds.

Well, both are great boats, but that's just not the kind of boat that I want.

Probably the Dufour 425 that I have charted in the summer is faster and I want a faster boat and most of all, a more rewarding and amusing boat to sail, but hey, for the ones that are not so mad about speed, these are three great fast cruisers at a fair price

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 10:47 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #493  
Old 01-04-2011
Top Sekret Ninja Sailor
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Somewhat near Naptown
Posts: 128
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 7
slap is on a distinguished road
Paulo -

When you tested the RM 1200, you indicated that you liked the X yacht that you had also tested better. How would the RM 1200 compare in sailing performance to these two boats?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #494  
Old 01-04-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,191
Thanks: 21
Thanked 98 Times in 81 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by slap View Post
Paulo -

When you tested the RM 1200, you indicated that you liked the X yacht that you had also tested better. How would the RM 1200 compare in sailing performance to these two boats?
Slap, some confusion here. I never sailed on a X yacht. I have sailed on a Luffe 40, on an Elan 380 and on an Opium 39. When I was in France to sail the RM 1200 I have sailed also the wauquiez Opium 39.

The RM 1200 has a huge stability and it's fast, if compared with the Jeanneau 409 or the Dufour 405 but you don't feel it. The one that I have sailed had a tiller and the wind was weak, 7/8K and the boat was making around 5.5/6.0K. That's good for a cruising boat but the tiller at that speed felt a little heavy and not much informative. The boat needed time to regain speed.

With the Wauquiez was like to pass from a BMW 3.0 diesel to a Porsche. The boat was making almost wind speed, sometimes and in on some sail positions more. The boat accelerated immediately and the steering was incredible, really good. I loved the boat and had a lot of fun sailing it. With 8/9K wind the boat was making 8k, sometimes a bit more and we were only using a 130% genoa, not even a geenaker.

Most would say that a BMW is better to travel than a Porsche and they are probably right (the RM is a true pilot house boat, you can see ahead from the chart table), but the Opium is pure passion with a good cruising interior.

If I could afford it, I would seriously consider it as my next boat. It has only a snag, the boat is not very fast motoring. With a 40hp engine the cruising speed is only 5.5/6K, but with such sailing potential the engine will be seldom used. The boat costs about more 20 000 euros more than a Dufour 40e or an Elan 410.

The 40X yacht is so expensive that I would not even dream of having one, but in what regards performance it would be close to a Dufour 40e (in top specs), a First 40 or an Elan 410. I believe that in weak winds the Wauquiez would be faster, but would not point so well (5º or less). With medium winds it would make about the same speed, and downwind with strong winds the Wauquiez would be a bit faster and a lot more stable.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 01-04-2011 at 07:54 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #495  
Old 01-05-2011
blt2ski's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,729
Thanks: 0
Thanked 21 Times in 20 Posts
Rep Power: 10
blt2ski will become famous soon enough
What rag did the comparison? That would be an interesting read, unless in some funky language, like Portuguese or something or other!?!?!LOLOL

Marty
__________________
She drives me boat,
I drives me dinghy!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #496  
Old 01-05-2011
blt2ski's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,729
Thanks: 0
Thanked 21 Times in 20 Posts
Rep Power: 10
blt2ski will become famous soon enough
LOL,

Goo info on the language will have to look up the widipedia link in a bit. Always fun to see funky stats.

too bad I flunked french in HS. oh well.

marty
__________________
She drives me boat,
I drives me dinghy!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #497  
Old 01-08-2011
OsmundL's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Norway (sometimes)
Posts: 361
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 6
OsmundL is on a distinguished road
Next: a Sail Ferrari

You like Ferrari, Paul. How about a Segelferrari? New of 2010 and showing at the Dusseldorf Boat Show this month, this should be a serious fun thing, only 24ft and at least within reach of people’s budgets. Hydraulic swing keel, twin rudders, a minimalist interior and only 1300kg should get you moving.
The model isn’t really named Segelferrari, only this boat is, so the name SegelMaserati should be available if you want one. The model name is Heol7, and they aim for 50 boats/year.
HEOL 7.4 - Blue Yachting - Bremen
Attached Thumbnails
Interesting Sailboats-segelferrari10.jpg   Interesting Sailboats-heolferrari6.jpg   Interesting Sailboats-heolferrari8.jpg   Interesting Sailboats-heolferrari3.jpg   Interesting Sailboats-heolferrari1.jpg  

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #498  
Old 01-08-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,191
Thanks: 21
Thanked 98 Times in 81 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
HEOL 7.4 , Defline 43 movie

Thanks for posting . Yes I know and I love that boat and the concept. Yes I certainly will have a look at it (in Düsseldorf).

Look at the speed potential, 16K without too much trouble:

HEOL 7.4 Videos - Blue Yachting - Bremen

That's a Martin Defline design and that's the most innovative naval architect I know. I think he is so ahead that has some difficulty in attracting main manufacturers contracts, even if the the French like fast and modern boats his designs are just too radical, to out of the borders.

Take a look at his site. That concept of keel is also used on bigger boats, and if I had the money for it, I certainly would be interested

architecte naval - defline yacht architecture navale

I will post one of the more conventional boats. From this guy I would not mind
to have a very conventional boat Conventional for him is pretty modern for everybody . I am talking about the Defline 43, pretty much the perfect bluewater cruiser. Fast, safe and comfortable....pity I am not rich

defline 43 qt - defline yacht architecture















Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 10:50 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #499  
Old 01-08-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 290
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 5
myocean is on a distinguished road
Wow!!
That's great!
Seems to be in the same price range like RM1200 and Pogo 12.50. So still not exaggerated! Is there a Polar available?
Ulf
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #500  
Old 01-08-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 290
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 5
myocean is on a distinguished road
The interior layout of the Defline 43 is very similar to the Cigale 14 - nearly a copy but on 43 ft only. Seems to be very convenient - am I right? I didn't expect that is possible on such a smaller sized boat.
I wonder why there are no more boats with this very interesting interior layout. What are the disadvantages?
Ulf
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 12 (0 members and 12 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cruising sailboats for sale welch Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 10 04-25-2012 05:20 PM
THE Yacht Builder List T37Chef Boat Review and Purchase Forum 26 07-08-2011 05:51 AM
Noob wonderings and questions about sailing, life at sail and sailboats Vans General Discussion (sailing related) 49 06-20-2011 12:18 AM
A List of ALL sailboats made with layouts? Myblueheaven Boat Review and Purchase Forum 8 10-08-2010 11:32 AM
Failure to Navigate - interesting post on Panbo Blog & from the NewsReader Mass Bay Sailors 0 12-11-2006 06:15 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:44 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.