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  #4991  
Old 11-07-2013
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Re: On design: Crew weight, boat speed and hull design.

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
They don't give the ballast on the Stream 40 but being a fast sailboat it will be a considerable one taking into consideration his big draft and torpedo keel, proportionally considerably more than on the average cruising sailboat, I am sure, that the Stream 40 is a very stiff boat without nobody seating on the rail. Not only because it has a very deep keel and a considerable ballast but because it is a beamy boat.

All those guys on the rail does not mean that the boat needs them there to sail properly, it means that in any boat, including the Opium or the Pogo 12.50, if you sit a large crew on the rail the boat sails with less heel and it is faster.

Narrow boats to be stiff only need to have more RM coming from the keel than beamier boats. The Redline 41 has almost the double of the B/D ratio of an Opium 39 and a considerable bigger draft. The boat will sail with more heel but that's all. I have no doubts that the Redline 41 or the Stream 40 will be more stiff (till 30º) than the Opium 39 even without anybody seating on the rail. Stiffness in a sailboat means power and while the Opium 39 is a very fast performance cruiser this two are not only fast performance cruisers but mostly top racers.

You can have an idea about the power of the boat and its stiffness by the sail area it can fly: the Opium 39 is slightly heavier than the Stream 40 but only can carry a upwind sail area of 63.2m2 while the Stream can carry 90m2 ( both boats with jib) and downwind the Opium 39 can carry 166.3m2 and the Stream 192.0m2.

The Stream is the stiffer and more powerful boat, also the boat with less drag. While racing the crew is there to maximize the boat performance not because the boat cannot sail or cruise perfectly without the crew on the rail.

On races where the 40class racers are raced with a crew you will see them seated on the rail as in any other boat even if the boat has water ballast, a thing that neither the Opium 39 or the Pogo 12.50 have.

In the 40class racers and Open60, the water ballasts are there, not because the boat needs them to sail but to maximize performance, as a crew does on IRC and ORC racers.

The difficulty I had talked about has nothing to do with the stiffness of the boat but with the boat being more "nervous" and in need of constant adjustments to be sailed near 100%. The Stream would not have any problem being used solo or with a short crew if sailed conservatively (80%) and even so it will be with all probability faster than am Opium 39 sailed near 100%. Sure, the Opium would be less nervous and more easy, specially downwind, but that does not means faster.

Regards

Paulo
Opium with 3 crew is lighter than Stream with 10 crew. We talk a lot of weight versus early planing. When going downwind I maintain you have no or very little use of 10 crew so Stream heavier and less optimised for planing. And since my comments, as stated, are about cruising I am not saying a boat will not be faster on a beat with both a lot of ballast AND weight on the rail. But most of us cruisers, even if performance oriented, are satisfied with good performance beating and are looking for excellence on other angles.

Opium does not have the sail areas you mentioned, my areas are upwind 82 sqm and with gennaker 172 sqm.

A boat with narrow hull and calculating with crew weight on the rail for RM and with singel rudder will be difficult to sail with small crew cruising. As you said yourself the boat need to be sailed at 80% and especially in an archipelago where you need 110% behind the islands and 60% in the gusts and open water you will have a lot of broaching.

And where all this weight discussion started was my comment that we 3 in our crew, with a weight of 200 kg can bring a lot of cruising gear compared with a similar boat with a bigger family or racing crew consisting of many heavy persons, a fact I only wanted to point out was missing in many comparisons.

Anders

Last edited by JAndersB; 11-07-2013 at 05:14 PM.
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Old 11-07-2013
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Re: On design: Crew weight, boat speed and hull design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
Opium with 3 crew is lighter than Stream with 10 crew. We talk a lot of weight versus early planing. When going downwind I maintain you have no or very little use of 10 crew so Stream heavier and less optimised for planing. And since my comments, as stated, are about cruising I am not saying a boat will not be faster on a beat with both a lot of ballast AND weight on the rail. But most of us cruisers, even if performance oriented, are satisfied with good performance beating and are looking for excellence on other angles.

Opium does not have the sail areas you mentioned, my areas are upwind 82 sqm and with gennaker 172 sqm.

A boat with narrow hull and calculating with crew weight on the rail for RM and with singel rudder will be difficult to sail with small crew cruising. As you said yourself the boat need to be sailed at 80% and especially in an archipelago where you need 110% behind the islands and 60% in the gusts and open water you will have a lot of broaching.

And where all this weight discussion started was my comment that we 3 in our crew, with a weight of 200 kg can bring a lot of cruising gear compared with a similar boat with a bigger family or racing crew consisting of many heavy persons, a fact I only wanted to point out was missing in many comparisons.

Anders
Anders - I'm not sure your factoring in what is required to sail the boat at 100% optimal performance under given conditions. Let me explain...

In marginal planing conditions, the weight of the extra crew is definitely an obstacle to breaking out of displacement mode and achieving planing speeds. In such conditions, fewer crew are required to handle the boat in order to achieve optimal speed.

However, as the breeze increases, so does the boathandling effort. I can tell you that everyone is busy on a 42-foot boat going downwind with mast head spinnaker in 20+ knots, particularly as you achieve planing speeds. At this point, apparent wind goes forward and the boat wants to round up, so the crew find themselves again in hiking position towards the back of the boat, to counter that effect.

Of course, we know that boats like the IMOCA 60 can be sailed in such conditions with one or two crew. But this is because they have been optimized precisely to compensate for the missing 10-12 bodies, via canting keels, water ballast, coffee grinder winches, etc.

Boats like the Stream 40 don't have water ballast or canting keels, so they have to make do with crew weight, which is effectively movable ballast. The trouble with cruising boats in planing conditions is that the equivalent weight is generally not located in the proper place to optimize boat speed. If you could take your inflatable tender, flat screen TV, water maker, and other items of weight, and quickly reposition them to the aft quarter of the boat, you'd achieve the same effect as the stripped out performance cruisers do with 8-10 handsome crew in matching Gaastra kit.

I recognized a short time ago that Mills should probably get a bit more credit than Ker for his IRC designs precisely because Mills makes an effort to provide some semblance of a cruising-friendly interior for his boats; Ker makes almost no such effort, but chooses to exploit other aspects of the IRC rule to achieve racing success. Still remember setting foot on Mills' IRC 37 "No Naked Flames" at 2008 Key West Race Week and being shocked by how comfortable it was down below, in contrast to its very racy (and sexy) exterior. The Swan 42s were there that year and looked sluggish by comparison.

Anyway, Paulo is correct, I think, that boats like the Redline 41 and the Ker designs can be sailed shorthanded if you make the necessary accommodations - i.e., you're going to reef early and switch headsails early and use smaller kites, etc. Ultimately, though, you won't be able to sail those boats to their optimal performance level even in the lightest breeze, since you'll be missing those 8-10 handsome crew down on the low side, inducing leeward heel, or tucked down below in the forepeak, reducing stern drag.
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Re: On design: Crew weight, boat speed and hull design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
Opium with 3 crew is lighter than Stream with 10 crew. We talk a lot of weight versus early planing. When going downwind I maintain you have no or very little use of 10 crew so Stream heavier and less optimised for planing. And since my comments, as stated, are about cruising I am not saying a boat will not be faster on a beat with both a lot of ballast AND weight on the rail. But most of us cruisers, even if performance oriented, are satisfied with good performance beating and are looking for excellence on other angles.
....
A boat with narrow hull and calculating with crew weight on the rail for RM and with singel rudder will be difficult to sail with small crew cruising. ...
....
Anders I don't want to continue to discuss this with you neither I want to piss you so it will be a quick post:

You seem to think that a boat like the Stream 40 without a crew on the rail would be slower than the Opium 39. I do not agree.

The rating of the boats has nothing to do with crew on the rails. Compare the rating of an Opium 39 with a top cruiser-racer like the Stream 40 and you will be on another order of magnitude.

You seem to assume that the Stream 40 is a narrow boat. It is not, 4.00m for a 40ft cruiser-racer is well above the average.

You seem to assume that a two rudder set up is indispensable or is a great advantage in a boat with 4 m beam in what regards performance and control. Certainly they are more convenient for cruising but just because you would need a very deep rudder like the one on the Stream 40.

Many top designer continue to prefer this type of rudder for very fast cruiser-racers and certainly they can provide an adequate boat control.lt is obvious that if they continue to design them that way is because they think they are more efficient and they use complicated fluid dynamics programs to determine the performance of rudders. It is all a question of design even if I think a two rudder setup is more efficient the difference in performance and control would be marginal. My preferences are more linked with reliability and less maintenance.

Bottom point, the Opium 39 is a great and very fast performance cruiser optimized for downwind sailing. The Stream 40 is a top cruiser racer very much oriented for top level racing and with an overall top racing performance.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 11-07-2013 at 07:34 PM.
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  #4994  
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Re: On design: Crew weight, boat speed and hull design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
...
I recognized a short time ago that Mills should probably get a bit more credit than Ker for his IRC designs precisely because Mills makes an effort to provide some semblance of a cruising-friendly interior for his boats; Ker makes almost no such effort, but chooses to exploit other aspects of the IRC rule to achieve racing success. Still remember setting foot on Mills' IRC 37 "No Naked Flames" at 2008 Key West Race Week and being shocked by how comfortable it was down below, in contrast to its very racy (and sexy) exterior. The Swan 42s were there that year and looked sluggish by comparison.
...
NA do what clients want regarding the interior of a boat. The Designer regarding the interior only give a general plan. Interiors of boats today, if quality is desired are designed by designers specialized in interiors. It is the owner of the boat if it is an one off, or the builder that determines that as well as the target market of the boat: If more for racing with a worse and more naked interior or with more quality and more agreeable for cruising interior.

In fact today we are seeing a clear tendency to a boat to be designed by a team of experts and not only an Architect like in the old days. Even only in what regards the sailing part of a boat sometimes you have the NA, that leads the team, a specialist in hydro dynamics and a specialist in rigging. Most of the times the specialist in interior design works directly with the builder and not with the NA. The builder that knows better the market wants to have complete control of that sector.

Regards

Paulo
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Fantastic movie, incredible story.

I am still at the middle of the movie but I have to share this with you all. Not a new story but an unbelievable one. The only guy rational about this was Dudley Dix, the South African NA that helped a crazy kid that was determined to circumnavigating in a ridiculous appropriated small boat.

Face to the kids determination he helped him to make his boat strong and seaworthy enough to give the him the best chances of survival and a way to accomplish his dream.

And the kid has up to his dream. Great story, a mad one, but a great one, providing nobody thinks it is safe to do that on such boat



By the way the boat is remarkably modern for a 20 year old boat and it seems to sail well. It has a keel with a bulb at the end of a relatively big and narrow foil.
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Last edited by PCP; 11-07-2013 at 07:35 PM.
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  #4996  
Old 11-07-2013
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Re: Fantastic movie, incredible story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I am still at the middle of the movie but I have to share this with you all. Not a new story but an unbelievable one. The only guy rational about this was Dudley Dix, the South African NA that helped a crazy kid that was determined to circumnavigating in a ridiculous appropriated small boat.

Face to the kids determination he helped him to make his boat strong and seaworthy enough to give the him the best chances of survival and a way to accomplish his dream.

And the kid has up to his dream. Great story, a mad one, but a great one, providing nobody thinks it is safe to do that on such boat



By the way the boat is remarkably modern for a 20 year old boat and it seems to sail well. It has a keel with a bulb at the end of a relatively big and narrow foil.
Looks like it's optimized for IRC. Check out that sprit and furling gennaker. On the other hand, those slab sides are more reminiscent of IMS at its worst. Going to need a gift rating to be competitive.
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Old 11-08-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

I also think we are talking in circles now regarding crew weight so I just want to end with repeating that my remark was a more philosophical observation and also more cruising and boat design oriented.

We also have different opinions about single/double rudders, as concluded before.I have tried both, single rudder with low ballast and narrow hulls, with low ballast and wide hulls, with high ballast with narrow and wider hulls and now doubble rudders, wide hull and rather low ballast. Never 10 crew though because I am only cruising. I have also read "all" boat tests on the market and I stand by my opinion that there is a difference especially in ghusty conditions and crusing, especially when you do not have a lot of ballast and 10 guys on the rail or one for every sheet. Put in even more ballast or make the boat extremely narrow (Faurby, old swedish cruisers) to prevent it broaching when tryingto get 100% , to replace the crew and you get a very heavy or difficult boat on a reach.

But all this we have been through in discussion earlier and I know that there are different opinions and sailing conditions so I agree, let's move on.

Andrers
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Transat Jaques Fabre

Finally they have started!!!


Départ ponton - Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 by TransatJacquesVabre


Départ - Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 by TransatJacquesVabre

and here they are:

Transat Jacques Vabre 2013

First comment: It is incredible how much faster the Mod70 are. The difference to an Open 60 it is a lot more than a difference in speed between an Open 60 and a 40class racer

No wonder that there are guys from the Open60 passing to the Mod70: They are there in first place because they like to sail fast
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Old 11-08-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

How about this :



Best regards,

Eric
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Spedream

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
How about this :



Best regards,

Eric
This time they seems to go faster but only with three guys as ballast with one I don't see it going fast. That project is a study for a a big boat. I don't get it. It has not the advantages of a monohull in what regards safety and I don't see any advantage over a multihull.

A monohull is much more forgiving to sail than a multihull because the RM that is utilized for sailing (at 30º) is not the max RM . Max RM on most monohulls is between 50 and 70º. That means if the boat catches a strong gust it will heel and not only the wind pressure will be less (sail heeled) as the RM of the boat will be considerably bigger than at 30º, putting again the boat on its feet.

This one is made to have max sail performance with Max RM. That is nice in what regards performance but what will happen in a gust? The boat will heel more and with more heel the boat will have a smaller RM. It can work on a dinghy where the guys can compensate that moving the body and acting quickly on the sails but what will happen on a a huge yacht, the original project?

Not a good idea on a bigger boat.


Interesting anyway but I think the project developed by Defline is more interesting in what regards bigger boats.

Also, I know the bow is supposed to be wave piercing but even without almost no waves and two guys trying to lift the bow it seems it tends to go underwater a lot. It seems to me that there is not enough fluctuation there.

Good time to review what I have said about this interesting project:

"This is indeed an interesting idea but it seems that it is not working out at least on the first boat. They don't seem to have enough RM. The conditions seem pretty soft, with not too much wind and they have to balance the boat with the weight of the body. Contrary to what I think Murnikov expected, when the keels comes out of water the boat seems to lose quickly stability.

I guess that it is because the keel work as a foil and creates stability even if it was not maximized for that, like on the DSS project.

Maybe we can combine both projects: Maximizing ballast effect maintaining it at the better angle to provide Max RM while profiling that keel to aerodynamically make a downward force. Maybe it is not much difficult to make a variable profile with small servo electric engines (like on an airplane).

That way it could be possible to maintain the keel always in the better position (slightly inside the water) adjusting the profile to give more or less downwind force according with wind intensity.

For working that way that bulb has to be modified, giving it a much more elongated form, diminishing drag. Like it is, it was made to be out of the water and now it would be inside the water all times.

It seems that they don't go that way and I don't like the way they are going. It seems to me that those wings on the new modified boat will be just to provide more RM trough the displacement of the weight of the crew. That would not work out on a bigger model.

In fact if they want to test for a bigger model the way they are doing it makes no sense. The RM provided by the weight of the crew will have in the smaller model a completely disproportionated effect providing much more RM than it would be possible on the bigger boat where the crew will weight proportionally a lot less regarding the total weight of the boat."


Quote:
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For years I have been seeing designs from Vlad Murnikov about his vision of the fastest monohull, a boat that could be as faster as a multihull, a huge boat (100ft) with the looks of a space ship. Well the designs were nice but the guy is not a leading NA and I guess it was just some dreamer with interesting ideas:





]

















Then, some time a go I heard that Roger Martin (a leading American NA) was involved in hull and deck shaping, general layout and detail design, that Hugh Welbourn (the one from DSS technologie) was part of the team and that Computational Fluid Dynamics (CFD) and sails was been developed by Tyler Doyle from Doyle Sails while SP-High Modulus was taking care of the structural engeniere. I thought to myself, jesus this is for real now.

When I heard that Lyman Morse was making a small prototype with 27ft I got really excited about it. After all they are promising the fastest monohull ever built, a boat with:

Delta-shaped hull, almost triangular in plan view, with a very narrow, wave-piercing bow to reduce resistance and improve seaworthiness.

Maximum stability and sail carrying capacity due to the innovative Ultimate Canting Keel with a bulb that comes out of water to provide the highest possible Righting Moment while completely eliminating drag.

Telescoping keel that retracts to reduce draft while in harbor and extends while sailing to maximize Righting Moment.

Stabilizing foils to further improve stability and reduce drag by partially offsetting boat weight. Similar to the DSS foils pioneered by Hugh Welbourn, SpeedDream wings are used in combination with canting keel and, in addition to lift, provide lateral resistance.

The resulting stability is far superior to all current keel boats while requiring only fraction of the ballast, thereby significantly reducing the total boat displacement.

The innovative and practical deck layout and superstructure styling that keeps crew safe and deck free of excess water even at high speed.


Well, the prototype is on the water. The images are not spectacular and I start to have some doubts. I truly hope they will be soon posting more spectacular movies and that this one is just not showing the full boat potential.

To follow closely







Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 11-08-2013 at 10:15 AM.
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