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  #5061  
Old 11-12-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Faster:
It's working like a charm EVERYWHERE. I look like I know what I am doing. Many thanks for pushing me into this. Now I don't have to go running to Paulo and you for help.
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  #5062  
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Thomas Coville attempt for the absolute solo circumnavigation record :

Quote:
Originally Posted by robelz View Post
Maxi-trimaran Sodebo - Record du tour du monde en solitaire

Thomas Coville on SODEBO going for the round the world record...
Big balls. That is even harder than on a monohull. Coville is a great sailor that has the bad luck to be contemporary with Joyon and the "old" man has beat him almost in everything (with a similar boat). No he looks for revenge and will try to take away Joyon biggest record.

That will not be easy, as Pelicano says this year can be a great year for records...provided the boat stays in one piece and that is not going to be easy. Good luck to him he really needs it.







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Re: Transat Jaques Fabre - Great movie on Open60

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
Both Stamm and Gabart are reeling in Riou and LeCam. Stamm is 11 miles back and Gabart only 29 miles. I predict it will be only a matter of time before we are back to the Macif vs. Cheminées Poujoulat battle. Appears that Stamm has recovered his health, while Macif is simply picking up where they left off before the Portugal pit stop.
For the time being you are right, you only forget about Stamm that keeps pushing, but just for the time being. As I have said from the beginning you have to join to that duo Marc, if he has not more problems with the furler.

As I see it in 6 hours Marc will be ahead again, him or Stamm. He and Beyou are on the best course with more wind pressure. I predict Stamm is going to lead the race for some time and then Marc will close on him and maybe be able to overtake.

Let'see

While we wait have a look, you are going to like it: Fear? Seasickness?



Regards

Paulo
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CFS: Carbon fiber stone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
Paulo - Actually, I think this Open 16 concept might be a stroke of genius from Sedlacek, if it performs as expected. There is a place in the market, I believe, for a true entry-level Open-class solo ocean racing design for those who want to get into the sport but don't have Mini 6.50 budgets.

As you suggest, however, the key question will be the cost. If I read the Fipofix web site correctly, the technology is supposed to yield stronger and lighter carbon layouts, and require thinner, lighter marine plywood sections, than conventional builds. I take it that also means the use of less resin in the process, which should reduce costs. If someone could do an Open 16 for around €25-30K + sails & electronics, I think you'd hit the sweet spot. Doing it as a single-sourced One Design, built at McConaghy, and shipped to Europe and the UK 4-to-a-container, you might just hit that target.

....
I don't think you can do an Ocean racer smaller than the Mini6.50 not on account of the boat but on account of seaworthiness and safety. You have some guys doing the Pogo 2 in America and the boat is not expensive for an Ocean racer.

Regarding the material that's another story. That's a CFS (Carbon Fiber Stone) material and the first I herd about CFS was on the Salona shipyard. In fact they use the material, not with volcanic stone but with granite that seems even strange to me. In fact if you order a Salona (any of them) in IBC specifications (infusion based carbon) the bulkheads are made in CFS, using granite. Take a look at the movie and stop exactly om 1.00 minute and you will see. All bulkheads are made with that material. It is not painted black it is just its color:



I saw the material there, it comes in big panels and its weird, black as the night, very light and very strong.

I looked at the time on internet searching for the material and I found very little. It says well from Salona since they are using it on top performance boats for years. Maybe because they are a small subdivision of a huge plastics and fibers manufacturer they have access to information and top materials in what regards the plastic/fibers development.

You should see my face when they asked to me if I wanted granite bulkheads on my boat

Some more information:

Towards a new Stone Age

http://technocarbon.de/presse/SD_CM_...chnocarbon.pdf

PS: that boat can have also an interior made of a lighter material (and more expensive) but it seems to me that it is a normal interior. The mast, boom and wheels are carbon but it has also teak decks so it is not a top racer. Some guy that wanted a fast but comfortable boat.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 11-12-2013 at 03:55 PM.
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Hanse 505

What a waste The boat looks good, the hull looks nice and I am pretty sure it is a good sailing boat:



But just compare these two interiors:





the first photo is the Hanse 505 interior the second one the one the Dufour 500 interior.

They say on the Hanse site that the interior was designed by the best interior designers
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Pogo 30 sail test

Lot's of posts today but how can I not post about this as soon as I see it? Toby's sail test on the Pogo 30: It seem like he was impressed.

14K true and 9K on a 30ft cruising boat? yes that is impressive

He says that the Pogo 30 is a new level of fun

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Old 11-13-2013
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Transat Jaques Fabre

and Stamm is leading the race on Open 60 Gabart maintains about the same distance to the leader but have won 10nm to Riou. Marc seems to have problems again on that furler. His boat is slower than the one from Beyou and that's not natural.

Anyway it seems that what was shown yesterday on the weather prevision was not what happened. Tricky routing. They have not such a big lateral separation and however Marc more to the west had not so much pressure as Stamm, that is in between him (laterally) and the ones on the leading pack but those had more pressure than Marc but less than stamm. And it will continue very tricky, it seems that there are more wind to the west but with some patches with slower wind on the way.

Transat Jacques Vabre 2013

Anyway this has been a very fast race and they have chances to beat the race record.


In the 40 class race they are getting strong wind and are all over the place. The leaders are the same but Riechers (second) seems to be closing on the leader (Rogues) . Most of all the Spanish team (Pella and Pablo) are making a hell of a recover after having lost considerable time replacing a rudder. I bet they will be third soon.

On another register, it seems that ker has yet to learn one or two things about designing solo racers. His boat is way back on the classification.

The first six days of race:


ENG - Summary 6 day race - Transat Jacques... por TransatJacquesVabre
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Last edited by PCP; 11-13-2013 at 12:06 PM.
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  #5068  
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Re: CFS: Carbon fiber stone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I don't think you can do an Ocean racer smaller than the Mini6.50 not on account of the boat but on account of seaworthiness and safety. You have some guys doing the Pogo 2 in America and the boat is not expensive for an Ocean racer.

Regards

Paulo
The last time I looked, the pricing on the Open Sailing Pogo 2's built in Los Angeles was about $100K / €75K ex-sails and electronics. Obviously used boats can be had for as little as $35K / €25K if you start looking at Pogo 1's or other older Series boats. And agree that it's not a lot of money for a bonafide ocean racing boat.

But if the Open 16 concept proves successful in handling a roundtrip Atlantic crossing in winter, and the price could come in near the low end of used Mini 6.50's, I think they could be viable for entry level offshore solo racing. Perhaps not for a Transat or even a Hawaii race (though Transpac and Pacific Cup weather is typically quite benign, by Atlantic standards - or even Bay of Biscay). For example, perfect for a Bermuda 1-2 and similar. And the cost of ownership for a 16ft boat is definitely going to be lower than for a 21ft boat, as well as being easier to transport.

Anyway, I've seen enough of these project to not get my hopes up that anything will come of it, aside from the materials technology aspects, which are probably the most important parts, in this case.

Fortunately, the actual Mini Transat has finally started, and the Proto favorites jumped immediately to the front, as expected. Boidevezi was leading Pedote by a small margin, last time I looked, with Marie, Gahinet and Sugre in hot pursuit. Haven't consulted the metéo yet, but probably only a matter of time before Pedote disappears into the distance.

Just as Macif will do within the next 24-48 hours, notwithstanding the charging Stamm (now leading) or tenacious Riou/Le Cam or Paulo's favorites, Guillemot/Bidégorry (who are 50 miles back of Gabart/MichDesj and 75 behind Stamm/Legros).

Speaking of Stamm, I really believe that if he'd had his boat sorted for the last Vendée Globe he would have given the two VPLP boats a much closer challenge. It was clear within the first week or so that his JuanK boat was not ready to race, and he ended up breaking things by having to push hard to compensate - even little things like his coffee grinder winch failing, caused big problems. And, of course, the charging system. But that's part of the game: Macif and Banque Pop were totally sorted, having benefited from the incredible support teams built around both boats, and training together for so long. Now that Stamm seems to have his boat in order - and his health - we are seeing why he is a man be be reckoned with. Probably not many faster in an IMOCA 60 - indeed, perhaps only Gabart, Desjoyeux and Le Cleac'h.

Finally, as to the misfortune of the Ker Class 40 Concise 18, another case of a boat not fully sorted, having arrived from the yard only a few months earlier and never having been put to the test in these kinds of conditions. In this case, their retirement appears to be related to rudder failure, but unclear whether they struck something or if it was structural - i.e., stress failure, etc. Looking forward to reading more on their web site. My guess is that Jason Ker will figure this out, eventually, if he wants to. Sam Manuard, on the other hand, has years and years of first-hand experience how to design fast shorthanded ocean racing boats, so no surprise that his designs are dominating now - I mean, really, really dominating - as in they are in a completely different class of performance, it seems.
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Sun Fast 3600

A video about theSunfast 3600 by Voile and voiliers, that's interesting but it is in French.

Anyway if you don't understand French you can see the interior that is one of a racing boat. Much worse than the one from the Pogo 30 for cruising and certainly a good one for ocean racing.

They take the opportunity of a delivery for test sailing the boat and they give some numbers:

15K trw downwind with spy asymmetric - 8.9K speed

15K trw 38º of trw - 7.2K

Now you guys don't start with ideas that the Pogo 30 is faster downwind (14K - 8/9K). I saw the movie and the Pogo was sailing on completely flat water, conditions that are not possible in non sheltered waters and on the Sunfast we are talking about an oceanic sail while on a delivery, so probably with typical 15k sea conditions.

Of course comparatively the Pogo is much more maximized downwind and compromised upwind than the Sunfast and the measure they give for the SF at a very tight angle to the wind (38º TRW - 7.2K) seems almost too good to be possible. Just as comparison a Farr 40 racer with 14K TRW and 37.6º makes 5.95K and with 16k and 36.7 - 6.01K (at 52º - 8.38K).

Incredibly good upwind performance in a boat that is slightly more balanced downwind than upwind and slightly more for solo than crewed racing. And the boat is not expensive too. I believe it is going to sell very well, for this type of boat and it will be a good racer with short crew or with a full crew.

They say also that the boat is very precise on the tiller and that everything works very well in what regards rigging. A great boat no doubt:



and also an English one:

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Transat Jaques Fabre

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
....

Just as Macif will do within the next 24-48 hours, notwithstanding the charging Stamm (now leading) or tenacious Riou/Le Cam or Paulo's favorites, Guillemot/Bidégorry (who are 50 miles back of Gabart/MichDesj and 75 behind Stamm/Legros).

..
Finally, as to the misfortune of the Ker Class 40 Concise 18, another case of a boat not fully sorted, having arrived from the yard only a few months earlier and never having been put to the test in these kinds of conditions. In this case, their retirement appears to be related to rudder failure, but unclear whether they struck something or if it was structural - i.e., stress failure, etc. Looking forward to reading more on their web site.

My guess is that Jason Ker will figure this out, eventually, if he wants to. Sam Manuard, on the other hand, has years and years of first-hand experience how to design fast shorthanded ocean racing boats, so no surprise that his designs are dominating now - I mean, really, really dominating - as in they are in a completely different class of performance, it seems.
And there you go again I never said that Marc was my favorite for the race. Let's get it straight. What you said was this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
...A lot of talent in that fleet, but unless Bernard Stamm can get "Cheminées Poujoulat" to perform properly, the only competition I see for "Macif" will come from the wily veterans Vincent Riou and the irrepressible Jean Le Cam,....
and I replied:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I think you are forgetting Safran and Marc Guillemot, Pascal Bidégorry. I believe that those two are among the ones that can win.
....
I never said they were my favorites. I have been calling the Gabart/Desjoyeux the wonder team and to me as to all that know anything about sailing they are clearly the favorites. I had said also that it was unfair to the others to join those two on the same team. There should be a law against that

It seems I was right since Marc, that was delayed with problems on the furler, managed to lead the race when they solved those problems. Unfortunately I believe the problems returned again, that's the only explanation I can find for him to be on the same course and slower than Beyou since his boat is faster.

On the next two days strategy will be very important because they have very little wind ahead. Riou seems to me the one in better position followed by Gabart. The ones more to the West will have probably more problems and lower speed, but we never know if the weather map they give to us is correct. Yesterday wasn't

.....

Regarding to be logical Sam Manuard boats to be the fastest 40class racers, it is not logical at all.

The greatest boat designers, specialized in this type of boats have boats designed by them racing, some, many. They are older, more experienced and have huge resources at their disposition, from tank testing to CFD top programs and CFD specialists working with them. I am talking about Guillaume Verdier, Finot/Conq, Marc Lombard, Owen and Clarck, Bruce Farr, Tom Humphries and J Valer.

Compared to them Sam is a kind of an Hippie that is half the time racing and half the time have fun sailing...and designing boats. As a NA he is very small compared with all those heavy heights...and also younger. Very talented no doubt.

He is a clear example of those bright guys that started racing on minis racers made and designed by them (and winning) that later took a NA course and used the knowledge and all his racing experience to design fast boats. If you want a parallel you have one in David Raison that is yet designing minis...but not for long, I believe.

Regarding KER 40class racer rudder problem, it seems they did not touch anything. A building or design problem it seems (they have more information in French):

Concise 8 : les raisons de l?abandon | Transat Jacques Vabre 2013 : Le Havre - Itajai | Novembre 2013

Regards

Paulo
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