Interesting Sailboats - Page 51 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree1266Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #501  
Old 01-09-2011
OsmundL's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Norway (sometimes)
Posts: 361
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 7
OsmundL is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by myocean View Post
The interior layout of the Defline 43 is very similar to the Cigale 14
Ulf
Ulf, you mention Cigale, and I must confess to an irrational love of this boat. I’ve been aboard the 14 and 16 and could not get the aft saloon out of my head. Glass on three sides with those large windows facing aft and a positively enormous roundtable give associations to the pirate vessels of old – you know the ornamental overhangs aft where a Captain Morgan gathered his scoundrels and counted silver treasures?

Deckhouse yachts boast 360ş views but tend to feel like a glasshouse or mobile home; in the Cigale you are in an acquarium down below and incredibly close on the sea. In every regard, the Cigale is a “social” concept meant to bring a crew together. The other side of this are the cabins – should I say sleeping quarters? They are cramped and more akin to sea bunks of a previous generation. To me this is so sensible and very rare when other boats are designed for boat shows: large luxurious double beds and “master bedrooms”, blatantly trying to pretend you are not really at sea. The Cigale is just purposeful.

Here is also a photo of the new Cigale 16 under construction. Love that structure!
Attached Thumbnails
Interesting Sailboats-cig16.jpg   Interesting Sailboats-cig16cabin.jpg   Interesting Sailboats-piratcabcartoon.jpg   Interesting Sailboats-cig-newalu.jpg  
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #502  
Old 01-09-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 290
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 5
myocean is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by OsmundL View Post
give associations to the pirate vessels of old – you know the ornamental overhangs aft where a Captain Morgan gathered his scoundrels and counted silver treasures?
Yes, absolutely. I had the same association without realizing this link.
The Defline is certainly not as beautiful.

One more interesting boat again without such a nice aft saloon is the Heol 11.4 I just discovered. Totally different but quite ambitious....

11.5 m
5 800 Kg
with lifting keel(s)



Looks like this comes with a deckhouse as well!

Ulf
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #503  
Old 01-09-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,192
Thanks: 21
Thanked 100 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by OsmundL View Post
Ulf, you mention Cigale, and I must confess to an irrational love of this boat. I’ve been aboard the 14 and 16 and could not get the aft saloon out of my head. Glass on three sides with those large windows facing aft and a positively enormous roundtable give associations to the pirate vessels of old – you know the ornamental overhangs aft where a Captain Morgan gathered his scoundrels and counted silver treasures?...
There is not nothing irrational about that . I have saw the first Cigale 16 in Paris boat show....and it was just perfect. As you said, contrary of most big production boats, that look like floating condos, that one mean business all the way... meaning passage in comfort, cruising in comfort and living in comfort. A true sailing/living/dream machine.Good taste dreams are not irrational

Regards

Paulo
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #504  
Old 01-09-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,192
Thanks: 21
Thanked 100 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Imagine 53

Quote:
Originally Posted by myocean View Post
Yes, absolutely. I had the same association without realizing this link.
The Defline is certainly not as beautiful.

One more interesting boat again without such a nice aft saloon is the Heol 11.4 I just discovered. Totally different but quite ambitious....

11.5 m
5 800 Kg
with lifting keel(s)



Looks like this comes with a deckhouse as well!

Ulf
Five or six years ago I followed the concept (in its site) that originated the Heol series. I remember that there was also a 14m boat, that it is not on line anymore. It seems that he has passed from the drawings to the real thing. It has taken about 5 years for someone to invest in its smaller brother (Heol 7.4) and I am still waiting to see a 14m boat over the same concept.

Another boat that is really incredible is the "Imagine 53":

imagine 53 2qp - defline yacht architecture

"This bold sailboat designed by Martin Defline is equipped with two hydraulically operated canting keels. A central computer manages their angle depending on the heel, strength and wind angle. The keels can be raised on each side to reduce the draft to the approach of a shallow anchorage. This yacht is unique to our knowledge.

Frederick Augendre - "Voile et Voiliers"














This ultra fast cruiser can easily sail with one of the keels out of the water. It is a development first tried with success on a smaller boat some years ago. It was amaizing to see it sailing with one bulbed keel out of the water

Now you can understand why I find this guy innovative. And he is quite young. Hopefully lots of good and wonderful things yet to come.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 11:51 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #505  
Old 01-09-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,192
Thanks: 21
Thanked 100 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
J133, Zou 40.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by myocean View Post
The interior layout of the Defline 43 is very similar to the Cigale 14 - nearly a copy but on 43 ft only. Seems to be very convenient - am I right? I didn't expect that is possible on such a smaller sized boat.
I wonder why there are no more boats with this very interesting interior layout. What are the disadvantages?
Ulf
Quote:
Originally Posted by myocean View Post
Wow!!
That's great!
Seems to be in the same price range like RM1200 and Pogo 12.50. So still not exaggerated! Is there a Polar available?
Ulf
No, unfortunately it is not. These one off boats cost always a lot more than production boats even if its a small production like Pogo or RM.

That boat was made by Naval force 3 and a naked boat cost 260 000 € and the one in the photos (fully equipped for passage making) cost 430 000€ (With 19.6 VAT).

You have more details, on the boat test made by "Voile Magazine":

defline 43 qt - defline yacht architecture

I don't have a polar but the boat is really fast. On the test they say it goes almost at wind speed. That's a passage maker with the performances of a cruiser-racer

Regarding boats with the saloon on the back position one of the reason it is not used in small boats (less than 14m) is because the height of central part of the cockpit is too low and on the interior you have space laterally, but also a low central part that is intrusive and makes for a disagreeable central space.

But you have one that is made in small series that use that space, one that it seems you don't know and one that I am sure you are going to love, the Zou 40.2. The boat is made over a Class 40 hull and it is a kind of Pogo 12.50 with a better interior. Off course, it is more expensive, but it is a great boat. I have already talked about it, not about the boat but about the conclusions that the testers had taken from a test sail between that one and a J 133, that costs about the same price.

Voiles et Voiliers : Essais et comparatifs - J133 contre Zou 40.2

FoX Technology Zou 40.2 -Class40

You have to look here to see the images and videos:

Gallerie Photo du Zou 40.2





You have also a used Zou 40 for sell (for a long time). I believe they would sell it for a lot less:

For Sale. Carène ZOU 40 - méditérrannée - 1648133

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 11:54 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #506  
Old 01-09-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,192
Thanks: 21
Thanked 100 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
I have found this Defline 43 photo and it is so nice I cannot resist to post it

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #507  
Old 01-09-2011
OsmundL's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Norway (sometimes)
Posts: 361
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 7
OsmundL is on a distinguished road
Speed vs Cruising

This is a great thread; pity I didn’t spot it earlier. Lots of interesting boats and info – but across a very wide spectrum! There appears to be an undertone “I want to sail really fast – and I’d like to go cruising in it.” Wouldn’t we all?

There are reasons why a clever designer hasn’t built such a boat long ago. Many of the boats in this thread fail to tick the necessary boxes. Before you protest: I certainly do not mean that all the boats in this thread fail the touring test – I’m only suggesting a critical look at each.

First, storage and buoyancy: beyond a few days of coastal cruising, most of us want more than a T-shirt and shorts. Pile in some weight and you can chuck these polar diagrams out the window.

An extreme example is the Dragonfly trimaran. I love the boat – great engineering, immaculate workmanship – but cruising? The 35 is possibly best of the series until the new 32 arrives; the 1200 is comfortable but way heavy for a tri – before you load provisions. A DF1200 completed the ARC rally some weeks ago, and the crew posted their observations on the DF forum afterwards: “As a rough guesstimate I would recommend multiplying the given numbers (in the polar diagrams) for 8-18knots of true wind speed by … maybe 0.66 in a boat equipped for cruising.”

The following is anecdotal and probably never to be repeated, but still: Last autumn I outsailed a Dragonfly 1000, a boat capable of 20 knots, in my touring Ovni 395. The winds were not strong, some 7-9 knots, not ideal for the “slow” Ovni. We happened to follow the same course, and I expected the tri to just lift off and disappear under the horizon, but after a couple of hours side by side it became obvious that Ovni pulled ahead. How so? Trimarans must stay light to perform, and this (German) tourist probably sailed with full holiday provisions. His tri just didn’t have the buoyancy to go. A characteristic of good cruisers is that they maintain good performance under a range of loads.

What is a touring “load”? I found out in December when my 395 was trucked overland. The truck had a permitted load of 10,000kg and I said, “No sweat, my boat is eight-something ton from the shipyard.” How wrong! It tipped into the red on the truck’s 10-tonne scale, implying stores of 1,5-2 ton. Disbelieving, I double-checked and conceded. 700L of water and fuel, dinghy, life raft, spare sails and ropes, galley and food, more tools than I ever hope to need, oil and misc. paints, washing machine and all the other extras, books, clothing and people – it adds up to way more than you think.

A Dragonfly 35 weighs 3900kg and takes a payload of 1500kg incl. crew. I doubt that it will be flying with 40% added weight?
Attached Thumbnails
Interesting Sailboats-df-flight.jpg  
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #508  
Old 01-09-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 290
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 5
myocean is on a distinguished road
I have discovered the Zou 40 when surfing on the Defline Website. But it's really expensive.
Looks really like a lot of fun!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
You have also a used Zou 40 for sell (for a long time). I believe they would sell it for a lot less:
Thats a good point...
I would prefer to select a boat which is easy to sell. I can invest my money into a good boat for the duration of a circumnavigation. But afterwards I need to sell again and have the (remaining) money available for a house.

Probably for such a plan a real high value mainstream boat like the First 40 or XP38 would be the right choice for me.
OK, they are even great, but I am easily falling in love with the Pogo and look-alikes. And I like the lifting keel boats.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #509  
Old 01-09-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 290
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 5
myocean is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by OsmundL View Post
most of us want more than a T-shirt and shorts. Pile in some weight and you can chuck these polar diagrams out the window.
Absolutely. However this is mostly a question of attitude towards life.
You don't NEED all the stuff. Think e.g. about people traveling around the world by motorbike (or bicycle!).
I have done long trips by sea kayak and any kind of sailing boat, even with minimalist equipment is already a big luxury.
You get used to what you have. Sure you like your washing machine but the more machines you have on your boat the more can break down. And the more clothes you have the more you will like your washing machine.
There is book from Hans Habek about his circumnavigation together with wife and son (3 years when starting) on an Etap21i.
This proves: If you CAN not take a lot of stuff with you it just works out. The big danger is the easiness of packing more and more in your big boat.

Well, sure, this is still all quite theoretical. I myself have not tried out where the (my) limits really are. Luxury is always a nice thing to have and this is why the Light Displacement Boats are not so popular.

Ulf

Last edited by myocean; 01-09-2011 at 05:16 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #510  
Old 01-09-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,192
Thanks: 21
Thanked 100 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Voyage

Quote:
Originally Posted by OsmundL View Post
..Lots of interesting boats and info – but across a very wide spectrum! There appears to be an undertone “I want to sail really fast – and I’d like to go cruising in it.” Wouldn’t we all?
Well, that is what I want for me, if you add to that : I Want to sail really fast, have a lot of fun sailing it and go cruising in it.

But this thread don't reflect only my personal tastes in what regards cruising, but also other tastes, other ways of cruising.

The key word is "interesting boats" and I would add, for any form of cruising and there are almost as ways of cruising as there are different sailors, from the ones that only want to make coastal cruising to the ones that occasionally cross oceans till the ones that are almost always crossing oceans.

And even among those different categories you will find the ones that like to be surrounded with all comforts, the ones that enjoy simple life and simple things, the ones that need to carry a lot and don't mind having a slower boat and the ones that travel light and want a light and fast boat. For some, cruising with a lot of stuff is indispensable. The emphasis go with cruising and sailing pleasure is not so important, efficiency and comfort is what counts most. For others, cruising and sailing comes in equal parts and from them an enjoyable and fast boat is indispensable for having pleasure, as much as a boat that can carry a good payload is indispensable for the first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OsmundL View Post

There are reasons why a clever designer hasn’t built such a boat long ago. Many of the boats in this thread fail to tick the necessary boxes. Before you protest: I certainly do not mean that all the boats in this thread fail the touring test – I’m only suggesting a critical look at each.

First, storage and buoyancy: beyond a few days of coastal cruising, most of us want more than a T-shirt and shorts. Pile in some weight and you can chuck these polar diagrams out the window.
....
What is a touring “load”? I found out in December when my 395 was trucked overland. The truck had a permitted load of 10,000kg and I said, “No sweat, my boat is eight-something ton from the shipyard.” How wrong! It tipped into the red on the truck’s 10-tonne scale, implying stores of 1,5-2 ton. Disbelieving, I double-checked and conceded. 700L of water and fuel, dinghy, life raft, spare sails and ropes, galley and food, more tools than I ever hope to need, oil and misc. paints, washing machine and all the other extras, books, clothing and people – it adds up to way more than you think.
Well, that is your cruising life style I am quite sure that for crossing the Atlantic I will not need more than 200 liters of water, a watermaker, some 90 liters of fuel and a boat that can really sail well in 6/7K wind. Yes I would need food and personal luggage, but I bet I will carry 1/3 of what you will need. That's just my style and I have found a wife that can live with that.

And if you think I am mad or that is no way to make a passage, nor a fast and light boat is the right one, take a look at this link:

giebateau.web-log.nl: 030 Bestemming Antarctica

I know it is in Dutch, but you can see the pictures (and they are beautiful) if you can not read it. It is about a couple that is travelling extensively:

They left Holland in the boat the skipper finds more adequate for him, a First 40.7. They are now exploring Antartica. By the way they say that had got 60K winds and that while they were there 6 boats sink (probably true bluewater boats ). They say also that they have not found any particular problem that they could not handle safely.



They are just leaving....for Japan.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 11:56 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 3 (0 members and 3 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cruising sailboats for sale welch Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 10 04-25-2012 06:20 PM
THE Yacht Builder List T37Chef Boat Review and Purchase Forum 26 07-08-2011 06:51 AM
Noob wonderings and questions about sailing, life at sail and sailboats Vans General Discussion (sailing related) 49 06-20-2011 01:18 AM
A List of ALL sailboats made with layouts? Myblueheaven Boat Review and Purchase Forum 8 10-08-2010 12:32 PM
Failure to Navigate - interesting post on Panbo Blog & from the NewsReader Mass Bay Sailors 0 12-11-2006 07:15 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:12 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.