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post #5091 of 6763 Old 11-15-2013 Thread Starter
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Re: Norbert Sedlacek / Open 16 Update

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...However, while being towed into the Spanish port of Gijn, the boat struck debris which ripped one of the rudders off the boat. Interestingly, according to his web site, the structural integrity of his volcanic rock-infused carbon laminate hull was not compromised - it was the stainless steel fittings which failed upon impact.

...
This has certainly been a horrible year for boats being damaged by floating junk. The list of carnage in the Mini Transat continued overnight, with several notable retirements / abandonments / technical stops resulting from collisions with various objects. I wonder if this will necessitate some radical innovations in boat design to lessen the risk of catastrophic failure when striking large objects at sea. Not sure what can be done other than strengthen key components, but at some point the sailors themselves will risk injury from being thrown off balance during collisions - perhaps helmets and air bags will be required.

On a more positive note, nobody has collided with a fishing boat so far.
One more:

"Gilles Avril sprung a major leak aboard his Mini No. 562 (Evolution Marine) after hitting a tree trunk off Portugal."


This has been a bad year with lots of storms and debris have been taken from land to the sea by rivers in unusually number. I hope this year will be an exception and not the new rule.

Regards

Paulo


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post #5092 of 6763 Old 11-15-2013 Thread Starter
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Mini Transat

Everything is pretty much the same with Pedote going away and the 3 Musketeers from the series class making an outstanding trace. Among them a girl that is in 2nd at only at 8nm from the first.

Regarding Protos I have said that Pedote is going away and yes from almost all, except one that has been and is rigth now faster: Boidevesi that is now second recovering from 7th. He started very well, lead the race, messed up and went down to 7th but you can keep down a fast racer



and here he comes at full speed. He is at 43nm from the leader. On the last days he was the only one with the same pace as the leader (he have recovered only some miles) but now he is making 11.7K while the leader is making 10.9.

If someone can catch Pedote I think he is the one.

http://www.minitransat.fr/cartographie?lang=en


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Last edited by PCP; 11-15-2013 at 10:44 AM.
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post #5093 of 6763 Old 11-15-2013
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Re: Mini Transat

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Everything is pretty much the same with Pedote going away and the 3 Musketeers from the series class making an outstanding trace. Among them a girl that is in 2nd at only at 8nm from the first.

Regarding Protos I have said that Pedote is going away and yes from almost all, except one that has been and is rigth now faster: Boidevesi that is now second recovering from 7th. He started very well, lead the race, messed up and went down to 7th but you can keep down a fast racer

and here he comes at full speed. He is at 43nm from the leader. On the last days he was the only one with the same pace as the leader (he have recovered only some miles) but now he is making 11.7K while the leader is making 10.9.

If someone can catch Pedote I think he is the one.

Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe--Pitre
Paulo - I think the real question that will need to be addressed, regardless of the results of this Mini Transat race, is: Can the more conventional 6.50 designs compete against the scow design?

So far, in this race, 747 has been fast across the full range of conditions, including those where everyone expected that it would be slower - upwind in big breeze / seas. But Pedote quickly showed that was not the case, and now that he is in the boat's sweet spot, he is almost untouchable - subject only to the prevailing meto in his location, relative to his competition.

I am also wondering whether any additional modifications were made to the boat based on Raison's experiences in the previous race. You will recall that he did not look dominant in the first leg, which, admittedly, was uncharacteristically light, and having any kind of breeze was the determining factor as to how one finished. For leg two, well, 747 simply pulled away from everyone else.

We will admit that Pedote is a great sailor. But that means that other sailors at his level cannot permit him to have an edge in boat design, all other things being equal. So far, the boat also appears to be quite durable, no doubt due to the lessons Raison learned when he was dismasted in his first race on 747. The mast is not stayed in the traditional manner, and uses a much bigger section. Similarly, the sprit is unconventional, extending through a steel hoop on the foredeck and being made of an uncommonly large carbon tube.

I very much hope that someone will get an interview with Raison after this race to discuss his design views again. Would be very entertaining and informative.

We deal in lead, friend.
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post #5094 of 6763 Old 11-15-2013 Thread Starter
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Re: Mini Transat

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Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
Paulo - I think the real question that will need to be addressed, regardless of the results of this Mini Transat race, is: Can the more conventional 6.50 designs compete against the scow design?

So far, in this race, 747 has been fast across the full range of conditions, including those where everyone expected that it would be slower - upwind in big breeze / seas. But Pedote quickly showed that was not the case, and now that he is in the boat's sweet spot, he is almost untouchable - subject only to the prevailing meto in his location, relative to his competition.

....
We will admit that Pedote is a great sailor. But that means that other sailors at his level cannot permit him to have an edge in boat design, all other things being equal. So far, the boat also appears to be quite durable, no doubt due to the lessons Raison learned when he was dismasted in his first race on 747. The mast is not stayed in the traditional manner, and uses a much bigger section. Similarly, the sprit is unconventional, extending through a steel hoop on the foredeck and being made of an uncommonly large carbon tube.

..
Humm, not quite so unless you are talking specifically of a Transat race. That design and boat has not managed to win out of a transat and have been beaten (not for much is true) by more conventional designs.

Probably the main mini race out of the transat is the Mini Fastnet. Raison's design did not won in 2012 neither in 2013.





Look at the mini rating and you will see that on the top are sailors that use conventional boats. If it was like you say everybody with be racing with "bath tube" bow boats


Classe Mini

Regards

Paulo


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post #5095 of 6763 Old 11-15-2013 Thread Starter
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Elan 410 against Elan 350

Look at the wheel of the 350: Good material



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Re: Elan 410 against Elan 350

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Look at the wheel of the 350: Good material
I see that the conflict in the Balkans continues.

We deal in lead, friend.
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Re: Mini Transat

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Humm, not quite so unless you are talking specifically of a Transat race. That design and boat has not managed to win out of a transat and have been beaten (not for much is true) by more conventional designs.

Probably the main mini race out of the transat is the Mini Fastnet. Raison's design did not won in 2012 neither in 2013.


Look at the mini rating and you will see that on the top are sailors that use conventional boats. If it was like you say everybody with be racing with "bath tube" bow boats

Regards

Paulo
Indeed, my point applies only to the Mini Transat race which, for sailors at the top level, is the only one that really counts.

Today, all the top sailors except one are sailing conventional designs, but I suggested several weeks ago that may well be due to uncertainty as to whether Raison's victory in 2011 was just "luck". My point, now, is that Pedote crushing the fleet in 2013 in the same boat may suggest to the top echelon the need to make the move to a scow design, if they want to win the Transat.

Of course, for all other races a conventional design will do well, provided the top guys don't all show up in scows.

Meanwhile, looking at the latest position chart, Pedote played it pretty much like I suggested yesterday. As his pursuers had to eventually gybe onto port and come back east, he used his leverage to come back on starboard into the stronger breeze (although it is getting lighter as the fleet approaches the Azores, and perhaps we'll see some compression by tomorrow morning). But he has maintained a > 45nm lead over Boidevezi and, at the last update, was going 3.4 knots faster. Indeed, he was the fastest boat in the race over that time period (though Simon Koster is sailing the hell out of his Series boat, only 0.9 knots slower than Pedote - amazing!).

Reading about the carnage that so many boats have endured, it really underscores just how good Pedote, Boidevezi, Belloir, Mettraux, and the other top skippers are. They are sailing in the same rough, boat-breaking conditions, and they are pushing hard all the way, not simply surviving. That takes both incredible skill and confidence in the preparation of their boats. I am truly humbled by their achievements.

We deal in lead, friend.
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post #5098 of 6763 Old 11-15-2013 Thread Starter
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Re: Mini Transat

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...
...
Of course, for all other races a conventional design will do well, provided the top guys don't all show up in scows.
Hum, I guess you did not understood. The bath tube bow does not have been able to win anything except the Transat. There are plenty of other races and a rating based on victories and top classifications on all races, kind of a championship. The first bath tub boat (Pedote) comes only in 4th.

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...
Meanwhile, looking at the latest position chart, Pedote played it pretty much like I suggested yesterday. As his pursuers had to eventually gybe onto port and come back east, he used his leverage to come back on starboard into the stronger breeze (although it is getting lighter as the fleet approaches the Azores, and perhaps we'll see some compression by tomorrow morning). But he has maintained a > 45nm lead over Boidevezi and, at the last update, was going 3.4 knots faster. Indeed, he was the fastest boat in the race over that time period (though Simon Koster is sailing the hell out of his Series boat, only 0.9 knots slower than Pedote - amazing!).
....
If you play the race back on the bottom cursor you will see that what I have said is true: Boidevezi 28 hours ago was at 46.7nm and now it is at 45.8nm. Boidevezi is the only one that is not losing to Pedote.

The speeds on this case have not the relevance that have on the Jaques Vabre site. There you have an average speed of 2hours and average of 24hours, here you have the instantaneous speed measured when they made the actualization.

Regarding the two boats the difference of speed as to do with them being about 48nm apart and not receiving the same wind. It will be sometimes worse for Pedote sometimes better but given the very similar speed potential of the two boats and the relatively small difference between them I believe that among those two the winner will be the one that it plays better routing.

By the way, Boidevezi is sailing an "old" boat a 2008 one, designed by Etienne Bertrand. Boidevezi is only on 22th on that overall ranking and that seems to show that is boat is not very well suited for other conditions except the ones you find on a transat, meaning downwind sailing.

Cartographie | Mini Transat 2013 - Douarnenez / Lanzarote / Pointe--Pitre

The minis make a lot of races each year, more than a dozen, having a boat only able to win one of them, even if it is the more important, makes not much sense and that's why there are not a lot of bath tub bow boats.

Regards

Paulo


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post #5099 of 6763 Old 11-16-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats


GUNBOAT G4 - YouTube


I am in love!

http://www.gunboat.com/series/gunboat-g4

Last edited by robelz; 11-16-2013 at 02:35 AM.
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Re: Elan 410 against Elan 350

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Look at the wheel of the 350: Good material

Was that 350 just recovering from a broach, or just not tracking very well upwind? Hey, nobody touch a sheet, just keep powering through
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