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  #5161  
Old 11-19-2013
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Re: Transat Jaques Vabre - Mini Transat

[QUOTE=PCP;1135873]


I follow you, Paulo. Those eyes ...
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  #5162  
Old 11-19-2013
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Re: Hunter 40

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The Hunter 40 seems to be the best designed Hunter ever, even if I don't like it too much, it is an improvement over previous designs.

Here you have a static review and the boat sailing.




Traditional American boats…
I think the issue is comparable to American cars. Or even better: motorcycles.
Harley Davidsons e.g. are wonderful machines and also loved by many in Europe, especially to look at and certainly to listen to. But from a technical point of view –let me put this in elegant terms- very traditional.
Nice to see, nice to be seen with and therefore nice to have. But certainly not if you also want performance and state-of –the art technology.
I’d also like to have a Harley to show off on a sunny Sunday afternoon, but certainly not to get me to work and back day by day and in any weather. That’s why I have a RT for a bike instead of a Harley. And a S3 for a car, instead of a Camaro. And a Pogo for a boat.

Of course then there’s the other category of American boats like Hunter. Supposing to compete with Bavaria, Hanse, Jeanneau, Bénéteau etc.
I think Hunter is no match for them and by far. If it weren’t for the very traditional American boat market, they would already have disappeared long time ago.
Very different from traditional American yachts or Harleys, they’re a pain in the eye. And also a pain on the water, just look at the video of the 40’ in Sidney bay. Heavily reefed in what doesn’t even look like 15 knots of wind, heeling and sludging through the water with an unbalanced sailplan. Probably quite a challenge but certainly not rewarding at the helm.

As said many times before: “degustibus et coloribus non est disputandum”.
But even inside (who the hell needs two separated showers on a 40 footer?) I’m only impressed by the huge flatscreen TV. Don’t we go to our boat to get rid of shore based worries such as TV?
In my honest opinion, this is not much more than a floating caravan.

What worries me even more is the building quality of this brand.
Some years ago we bought three Hunter 18’s for our sailing school. We thought this would be an upgrade after our good old Caravelles.
A huge mistake.
These boats are built to take your grandparents and/or grandkids to a peaceful anchorage on a peaceful lake and a windless day.
As soon as you start really sailing, everything breaks down one by one. Rudder, daggerboard, mast, rigging, sails, you name it. In the past five years we had to replace and/or rebuild almost everything, not on one but all of our three boats.
Now we have restored our good old Caravelles and await eagerly the writing off of these Hunters to get rid of them as soon as possible. And probably order new Caravelles.

So now you know: I don’t like Hunters at all.

Best regards

Eric

Last edited by EricKLYC; 11-19-2013 at 06:59 PM.
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  #5163  
Old 11-19-2013
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Re: Hunter 40

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
...

Of course then there’s the other category of American boats like Hunter. Supposing to compete with Bavaria, Hanse, Jeanneau, Bénéteau etc.
I think Hunter is no match for them and by far. If it weren’t for the very traditional American boat market, they would already have disappeared long time ago.
... they’re a pain in the eye. And also a pain on the water, just look at the video of the 40’ in Sidney bay. Heavily reefed in what doesn’t even look like 15 knots of wind, heeling and sluggish through the water with an unbalanced sailplan. Probably quite a challenge but certainly not rewarding at the helm.

.....

So now you know: I don’t like Hunters at all.

Best regards

Eric
Well Eric, I posted those movies for not be accused of not posting about American boats but it is probably suited to re-post this post about the Hunter 40. Only looking at the hull I could saw that the boat was not going to sail properly with any considerable amount of heel, like the one we see on some of those images the ones that lead you say to say " heeling and sluggish through the water ... Probably quite a challenge but certainly not rewarding at the helm. ":

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
....

The first photos of the boat had surprised me. The boat looked modern and nice:





I got interested and I thought: Finally they got one of the main NAs to design their boats.

They say about it:

Whether you are a day sailor or serious cruiser, the new Hunter 40 is designed to please. Her superior sailing characteristics are honed from her 65 predecessors to emerge from our design center.

Built in the United States, she is crafted by people who understand and respect the sea. We chose to launch the new H40 on our fortieth anniversary with the desire to create a sailing vessel that exceeded the expectations of the past forty years.

Come experience the new H40 with her dual helm control, fold-down transom, chined hull and dual heads. Our hand-crafted interiors are made to fit each boat, not the other way around. The result is an interior fit and finish that is as functional as it is beautiful.



Hum, that is odd they don’t say who is the designer and they talk about a “design center”???

Well the boat has a chined hull, that should be a modern hull???, and then I saw this:




This looks like the shape of a 10 or 15 year’s old cruiser!!! That is really odd… and I start to look for hull designs and 3D renderings…and I found none!!!???? Very odd, that would be unthinkable in an European brand. I am confused.

The American Sailors are not interested in the hull, keel and rudder design of the boat that they are going to buy? Then I started to look for the name of the boat designer and again…nothing!!!??? I thought that was not possible, the name of the designer gives an assurance of quality, everybody wants to know who designs his boat?!!

Well maybe not, at least not in America, not for Hunter, they have not the name anywhere so I guess it is designed in house by their " design center"!!!???

That is unheard except for some small brads where the owner is the designer and build to very small market niches. In what regards big brands and main market, they all have in house architects but they do not design the boats they make the interface between what the brand wants and the best world Architectural Naval offices that actually design the boats.They also help in the building, adjusting small details and modifying small things.

Well, the "in house Hunter design center" is not what I would have called as a major name in boat design.

After looking a lot I could find out some pictures that show actually something about the hull design, besides the global shape of the boat:





That chine is really odd, a very hard one that will not allow the boat to sail well except with very little heel, otherwise creating a lot of drag. That kind of chine, I mean a very marked one (even if not so extreme) will give a lot of hull stability and prevents heeling but will not be appropriated to a boat that has the max beam forward. That demands a large beam and all the beam brought back, like on the Benetau 41, a boat with 4.20m of beam:



But even so we can see that the Chine transition is a much softer one allowing the boat to have a maximized hull form at angles of heel till 17º or so and after that allowing the boat to sail close upwind at greater angles without generating a lot of drag:







The last picture is from a Jeanneau 409 a boat that has not the beam so brought back as the Benetau Oceanis 41, a hull that in its overall shape is more similar (even if more modern) than the one from the Hunter 40, also with a chine but with a even more soft transition than on the Oceanis and that is natural because having the Jeanneau less beam and max beam more forward it will sail upwind with more heel.

So a good question is what is the Hunter 40 beam? On the main site they have 12’2’’ or 4.01m????? and on the PDF they have 13’2’’ that is equivalent to 4.01m. Here on a more detailed file (that has also beam at waterline they give again 12’2’’ and again 4.01m!!!!. I guess that it is really 12’2’’ (the boat don’t seem to have much beam) and in that case it should be 3.71m. That makes that hull transom design and the hard chine even more odd since this boat will heel even more than the jeanneau 409 ( Beam 3.99m) going close upwind.

Marlow-Hunter vs Marlow-Hunter 2013 vs 2013 Hunter 40 vs Hunter 40 Sailboats

Regarding ballast and ballast ratio/type of keel in what regards RM, I cannot say all because I could not find any picture or drawing of the boat with the keel in the fin configuration. We know that the draft is 2.03m and that the B/D is on the low side (27.5%). I hope that this boat has a modern keel with all the ballast on the bottom otherwise it would be really on the very low side.

The boat has not much beam neither a big B/D ratio (or a big draft) so this will make it not a powerful boat and not able to carry much sail. The weight is on the high side (8936Kg) and that makes it comparable with the more heavier European mass production boats, like the Bavaria 40 (8680kg) or the Hanse 415 (8900kg ). The sail area is surprisingly bigger 93.46 m2 (to 82m2 and 84.5m2) since both the Bavaria and the Hanse are more powerful boats, with more RM, this means that the Hunter is a more tender boat and a boat that would have to reef a lot sooner than any of the other boats.

If the boat looks well at ¾, on the side it looks a bit odd



And I don’t understand the boom traveler not to be on the axis of the support structure. That will create an arm and will multiply the force that will be made on the structure and on that panel that I find really ugly:



View from the back, I find the design too heavy, with a too high transom to my taste:



Regarding the interior it has a very good galley and a nicely overall distributed interior, especially in what regards the two cabin version.



In what regards design, it seems that, contrary to any European brand, it is also made at home in their “design center” and it shows. The comparison with any European brands, that have their interiors designed by the best interior designers, is evident. For what I have saw on other Hunters this difference in the interior quality, as well as in general, is not one of material quality, that is similar to the one of the European boat builders, but one of design quality.





Regards

Paulo
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  #5164  
Old 11-19-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Sorry for the prolonged absence but I am traveling this week and in meetings most of the day and evening.

But I wanted to chime in to say that it is now looking like Pedote is also a tactical and meteo genius. Not only has he regained the lead from Benoit Marie, the two of them are crushing the rest of the Proto fleet, and it is now a question of whether Marie can hang on to the rear wheel of Pedote as they continue up the Alpe d'Huez to the finish.

But my analogy is not a good one since Pedote has tremendous leverage on Marie, being further south and able to sail a hotter angle. He was showing > 2 knots more boat speed during the last update. What happened to Delesne and the others is astonishing. Everyone who chose the northern route around the islands was destroyed... except Marie.

What is perhaps the most amazing thing about this race, however, is the performance of Belloir and Mettraux, in the Series. The are actually threatening to beat most of the Proto class, and Belloir is on Pedote's line and, presumably, in similar weather. Mettraux is further north and, like Marie, seems to have sufficient speed for now to hang with the leaders. I don't think anyone could have predicted such an incredible race for those two, and I am looking forward with much excitement to the next few days.
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  #5165  
Old 11-19-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
... What happened to Delesne and the others is astonishing. Everyone who chose the northern route around the islands was destroyed... except Marie.
....
Delesne would be ahead of Marie if he had not bad luck. In fact now we know how incredible was his race and performance. He almost did not have energy for the autopilot and was hand steering day and night. But he could not take anymore and had to make a pit stop in the Canaries. As the rules say that in that case he has to stay put 15 hours he lost that to all the others and any chance to win the race. stupid rule in my opinion.

Now about all those things that have destroyed all those rudders at speed:

"Around 3am yesterday morning brian noticed something caught around the starboard rudder. He called me on deck and we could see what looked like a piece of rubber or rope trailing 1m behind the rudder. I tried to free it but could not get hold of it so we decided to slow down the boat, snuff and drop the spinnaker and turn the boat into wind to stop it. Having done all this I went back to grab the obstruction to look straight into the head af a shark caught around the rudder. It was about 1.5m long and we had hit it in the middle and it had curved around the rudder. What we could see coming out of the water was its tail. We backed down and it fell off and we went on our way, don't think the shark was so lucky."

If they had hit a big one it would be them without luck because that rudder would probably break.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 11-19-2013 at 09:05 PM.
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  #5166  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats


Last edited by Faster; 11-19-2013 at 11:56 PM. Reason: resized image
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  #5167  
Old 11-19-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Dark.. I've resized your image.. such large pictures mess up the entire page.. please downsize your image before posting, Thanks..
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  #5168  
Old 11-20-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Mare is closing to GDF (42nm), but Tales Santander is way faster than both leaders...
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

The Hunter is one of the fugliest boats wearing chines I've ever seen...
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

GDF - 37nm - mare - 34nm - Tales Santander. Doldrums are coming now. I think it is all open!

MACIF continues raising distance, (but only) 21nm now...

If the meteo is even close to the wind the Class40 will have, they will go upwind all the time through the doldrums witz 3-6kn of wind. If routing isn't perfect all the time they might even stand still with 0kn!

Last edited by robelz; 11-20-2013 at 05:16 AM.
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