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  #521  
Old 01-11-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OsmundL View Post
The Hammerhead 35 seems to get a lot of attention at the London Boat Show (not to be confused with Hammerhead 34, a multihull that you’ve already shown in this thread).

....
Please tell me you haven’t already covered HM35
Nah! That's an interesting concept...but ugly boat in my opinion. Why such big "windows" on the interior? It's the "DS" of the sport boats?

"The amazing canting keel is remotely controlled via a fob worn around the skippers neck."

What the hell is a "fob"?

Regards

Paulo
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  #522  
Old 01-11-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post

What the hell is a "fob"?

Regards

Paulo
A 'fob' is like a key ring tag, or in this case more like a remote keyless entry for your car. Waaay back when, people had 'watch fobs' to which their pocket watches were attached.

Quote:
fob 1 |fäb|
noun (also fob chain)
a chain attached to a watch for carrying in a waistcoat or waistband pocket.
• a small ornament attached to a watch chain.
• (also fob pocket) a small pocket for carrying a watch.
• a tab on a key ring.
Unless, of course, we're talking about an FOB - Freakin' Obese Boater - generally found among the ranks of Stinkpotters!
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Last edited by Faster; 01-11-2011 at 06:40 PM.
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  #523  
Old 01-11-2011
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THere is a fleet of the mini 12's here in Seattle too. IIRC a grudge type match once a year tween RVicYC ad SeattleYC, but do not quote me on that. They might even have slightly different mini 12's, as I believe there are a couple of variants.

I like the H35. Altho similar to a schock 40 that was built in California a number of years ago, did not amount to much. Still a few around, Think one could still get built. But locally anyhow, you can not use the CK as one should with the rating system used, so there are very few canters around. I would think if a fleet could be made on a local basis, so CK boats raced against ea other, not against fixed keels or multi's, then one might find more on the horizon in smaller versions like this. Otherwise, unfortunately, one is buying for the most part, a one off boat that one can talk about at the dock/cruising etc, but be pretty useless for racing.

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  #524  
Old 01-12-2011
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Pacer 376

One that I find beautiful and that has also made some impression in Europe is the Pacer 376. It is a South African boat and in its cruising version has a nice interior. To have more space on the salon, galley and front cabin they chose to have open back cabins. An Ideal boat for a couple with kids.

The only problem regarding cruising would be the 2.4M draft . Most cruiser racers come now with drafts like that but propose also a more reduced draft (about 2.1). Maybe they don't have it on the technical characteristics but can have it done.

They will show this one on the Dusseldorf boat show. I am going to have a look at it and its price.













Pacer Yachts :: Information on South Africa's finest yacht builders for sportboat sailing

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 10:57 AM.
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  #525  
Old 01-12-2011
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This is a very nice boat - and fast!
I will probably sail with this one on "Gotland Runt" this year. Let's see...

When you accept to live without doors, Pogo is part of the game again.

Ulf
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  #526  
Old 01-12-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myocean View Post
..
When you accept to live without doors, Pogo is part of the game again.

Ulf
No, the doors are important to me. Privacy is important to me, I have grown up kids, soon they will be married or living with someone and I love to sail with the family and without doors, well, it would be a bit...humm, you get my drift

Besides after taking into consideration the kind of sailing I do and that I hope to still make (mostly coastal sailing with some offshore passages and an occasional ocean crossing), the Pogo is not the ideal boat in what regards sailing. The Pogo is really good if you want to travel extensively along the trade winds, but if you want to do the kind of sailing I want, a good traditional cruiser-racer is not less fast and it is more comfortable in a seaway.

Look at the results of the last Sydney-Hobart: There was a racing Pogo doing it (class 40) and it barely finished ahead from the fastest First 40 (10m). If Two True, the fastest First 40 had not retired (with engine problems) it would have stayed well ahead from the Pogo.

And that is not an accident, That Pogo is extensively raced by local racers and have made several Sydney- Hobart. In 2009, again, it stayed ahead from Paca (the first First on this year's edition) by only 8m, but Two True, the First 40 that was leading in compensated time this year's race (before retire), finished ahead the racing Pogo by 8 hours.

The kind of sailing I do have more to do with those conditions than with following the trade winds, were the Pogo is unbeatable

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 01-12-2011 at 01:32 PM.
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  #527  
Old 01-12-2011
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2011 - a good year

A general observation: 2011 looks to be a very good year for sailboat design. We owe at least this to the recent year’s financial circus. The large manufacturers have had to take their eye off boats rolling out the door and instead turn to development, and the marginal and also-rans have either been bought or gone down. You can probably count more new genuinely new models now than in the previous several years.

Another factor is that most have completed their transition to new production techniques and new materials that only began to mature ten years ago. The same goes for equipment all the way from engines and sails – will we see diesel-electrics? - to electronics. The product cycle is noticeably shorter. The big remaining question will be whether the buying public will be equally adventurous. Sailors are a conservative bunch.

Some trends:
Hard chines. Centerboards/Lifting keels, and twin keels – a surprising number of builders have added these to their range. Canting keels, yes – though I’d personally want these tested in numbers for at least 5-10 years before I rely on one. More glass. More light. Twin rudders. Better speed – motorsailors are gone from most markets, replaced by the less loaded term “Decksaloon”, and these must increasingly improve speed to stay competitive.

Finally – and this may be too early to call: more boats adapted to families and individuals? The charter market has always been responsible for soaking up large numbers of beamy, roomy and under-rigged floating palaces with far too many cabins for private owners' needs. This market also drove the equipment market towards mass production of “average” quality – and a company like Lewmar almost went under when the bottom fell out of the market. Lately, Lewmar has rediscovered the after-market and new products. Judging by where innovation seems to occur now, we may be seeing more “real” sailboats – one hopes

I am a bit of an optimist. Perhaps that is why is see the 2011 market as closer to the 1970s when sailing interest peaked and great boats were made? There has been development in between, but now we see a mature crop where almost no boat is truly bad, and new materials and designs have lifted interiors a whole level across the board.

A quick retort to Paulo:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Nah! That's an interesting concept...but ugly boat in my opinion. Why such big "windows" on the interior? It's the "DS" of the sport boats?
Paulo
Well, there’s no accounting for taste
The greater glass areas in new boats owes much to new materials – an extreme example being the Sirius 35DS in this thread, with hull ports in bulletproof polycarbonate almost three times the thickness of German Army bulletproof staff cars. The tiny pigs’ eye round ports of the 1960’s boats had to do with adapting to leaking frames, the imperfect strength and price of glass, and hull materials not permitting large glass areas to be stable or secure. Personally, I see many reasons to have large glass areas and almost none favoring the opposite, if we disregard sailing in Polar Regions. A big plus comes for single-hand sailors: you don’t want to go below and lose all connection to the business end outside.

I’ll follow up with a brief summary of more boats – they do proliferate!
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  #528  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
There was a racing Pogo doing it (class 40) and it barely finished ahead from the fastest First 40 (10m). If Two True, the fastest First 40 had not retired (with engine problems) it would have stayed well ahead from the Pogo.
So here we are again. >>> First 40 is faster? <<<

We had this discussion before and you said..

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Who says that?

Regarding the polars they consider flat water. With waves, probably the First will drag less water and certainly will be more comfortable , but I doubt that it will be faster, at least with all the winds. Anyway the difference will not be big.
So meanwhile it seems the difference is not big, but Pogo has the tendency to be slower in mixed wind conditions, right?

Ulf

PS: How would you rate a Defline 43 in comparison?
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  #529  
Old 01-12-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myocean View Post
So here we are again. >>> First 40 is faster? <<<

...
So meanwhile it seems the difference is not big, but Pogo has the tendency to be slower in mixed wind conditions, right?

Ulf

PS: How would you rate a Defline 43 in comparison?
The Defline is fast but it is on another category. It will be slower than the Pogo12.50 or the First. It is a more heavy boat more orientated for passage making and it is with the same type of boats that he should be compared. For instance with the RM 1300. And I don't know if it will be faster cause the RM 1300 is a very fast boat

Besides the facts that I have pointed out regarding the Sydney Hobart race, I am just guessing but I would say that when things get rough upwind, the First 40 will have the upper hand (and will provide a smother ride).

By what is said on the tests, from 90º to the true wind to downwind, the Pogo will be faster. The main difference will be downwind with winds over 20K.

Regards

Paulo
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Hammerhead 35

Quote:
Originally Posted by OsmundL View Post
A general observation: 2011 looks to be a very good year for sailboat design. We owe at least this to the recent year’s financial circus. The large manufacturers have had to take their eye off boats rolling out the door and instead turn to development, and the marginal and also-rans have either been bought or gone down. You can probably count more new genuinely new models now than in the previous several years.

Another factor is that most have completed their transition to new production techniques and new materials that only began to mature ten years ago. The same goes for equipment all the way from engines and sails – will we see diesel-electrics? - to electronics. The product cycle is noticeably shorter. The big remaining question will be whether the buying public will be equally adventurous. Sailors are a conservative bunch.

Some trends:
Hard chines. Centerboards/Lifting keels, and twin keels – a surprising number of builders have added these to their range. Canting keels, yes – though I’d personally want these tested in numbers for at least 5-10 years before I rely on one. More glass. More light. Twin rudders. Better speed – motorsailors are gone from most markets, replaced by the less loaded term “Decksaloon”, and these must increasingly improve speed to stay competitive.

Finally – and this may be too early to call: more boats adapted to families and individuals? The charter market has always been responsible for soaking up large numbers of beamy, roomy and under-rigged floating palaces with far too many cabins for private owners' needs. This market also drove the equipment market towards mass production of “average” quality – and a company like Lewmar almost went under when the bottom fell out of the market. Lately, Lewmar has rediscovered the after-market and new products. Judging by where innovation seems to occur now, we may be seeing more “real” sailboats – one hopes
...
Nice insight . I would add twin wheels, bigger and more hull ports, broader sterns and beam brought aft and electric winches that can "push and pull" without taking out the line. Also the keels are becoming thinner, with almost all the weight brought down to a bulb.

Regarding better mass production boats, what we are seeing is that almost all producers are presenting very well designed inexpensive boats (that will be used like that on the charter business) but boats that can be upgraded with lots of extras (no luxury things, but better quality equipment) to a good quality sailing boat, with very good performance. These upgrades go in some cases till the hull, that can be upgrade to epoxy or vinilester and to complete performance rigs (sails, masts, running rigging) and even better keels. The upgraded boat and the standard boat are miles apart... as it is its price, that can be 50% or more.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OsmundL View Post
A quick retort to Paulo:


Well, there’s no accounting for taste
The greater glass areas in new boats owes much to new materials – an extreme example being the Sirius 35DS in this thread, with hull ports in bulletproof polycarbonate almost three times the thickness of German Army bulletproof staff cars. The tiny pigs’ eye round ports of the 1960’s boats had to do with adapting to leaking frames, the imperfect strength and price of glass, and hull materials not permitting large glass areas to be stable or secure. Personally, I see many reasons to have large glass areas and almost none favoring the opposite, if we disregard sailing in Polar Regions. A big plus comes for single-hand sailors: you don’t want to go below and lose all connection to the business end outside.
..
I don't have nothing against large glass areas, if they are structurally sound, but having them up in the air in a boat that will be used mainly for racing or performance sailing, has no sense. In a racing boat (or in a very fast boat) a big house like the one that we can see on the Hammerhead 35 is prejudicial to performance. On a fast boat we want the wind on the sails, not laterally on the hull or in the house, making the boat drift sideways and losing way.

On Architectural jargon we use to say that form follows function and that the beauty comes from there. On the Hammerhead case the main function is performance (canting keel) but the rest of the design, mainly the cabin height is not designed accordingly and if that cabin was not so discordantly high you would not have space for those big glasses. Voilá, that's what I was trying to express when I have said that the boat was ugly.



Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 10:58 AM.
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