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  #5321  
Old 12-03-2013
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T yachts

Quote:
Originally Posted by robelz View Post
Have you heard of T-Yachts? They are not new but they are new to me.

T-Yachts Germany auf der Interboot 2012 - T Yachts

Specs of the 34 are similar to a JPK 1010. I love the interior. They also have a 38 and soon a 42...
Yes I have already posted about it. I love the boat. It belongs to the same category of other Italian fast cruisers that are not very well known like the NM yachts or M yachts. Great boats



Italy as a production of that type of boats as big and good as the French one but the boats are much less known since the Italians race less out of their waters.
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  #5322  
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Re: in which conditions a staystail will give extra speed when the asym is up?

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Originally Posted by robelz View Post
Well, the are in a different situation, going upwind with the Spi. I was thinking on reaching courses with the Asym as often seen in Minis and more seldom on other boats (sometimes on Class40s, never(?) on IMOCAs)...
Now I am confused The asymmetrical spinnaker is a downwind sail. Are you not confusing it with a code 0?

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-03-2013 at 06:49 AM.
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  #5323  
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European Yacht of the year movies

Just great, thanks for posting. Beautiful movie, beautiful boats.

The Safier 26 looks very fast in light winds, the HR looks an old design and the Ice looks gorgeous on the inside and on the outside. I don't like that much the Mylius interior, but what a sail performance: There is an image where we see the Mylius overtaking the Ice, going closer to the wind with an huge speed difference of speed. We can see also that the boat is incredibly fast on the light stuff.

The interior of the Oceanis 38 looks fantastic but the sailing performance in light wind seems not better than the one of the Bavaria 37 that has now a nice interior and it is a fantastic package for the price.

The Dufour 410 interior is also fantastic but I have heard also some negative comments regarding the performance in light winds. In that respect it seems to share the disadvantages of the Oceanis 38...both has very large transoms that seem to drag a lot of water on that situation.

Regarding performance cruisers the Elan 400 and the Dehler 380 seem fantastic but the Dehler interior is just better in what regards space, taking into consideration that is a 38ft boat. The premier 45 sails like it looks: Great... very fast on the light wind.

On the special category the little Django seems very fast on the light conditions and the Essence is a cute traditional daysayler that sails very well (I want one to sail out of season). The Dutch are just great doing these type of boats.

Many other interesting boats like the Pogo 30, the xp 33 or the Contest. This one seems to sail very well for that type of boat and has a great interior.

What an amazing crop just for one year of production they will have a lot of difficulty regarding the choice among such nice and good boats.

For the ones that missed it, here is the first part of that presentation, I mean the testing for the European boat of the year:

Europas Yacht des Jahres 2014 - Teil 1 - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-03-2013 at 08:16 AM.
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  #5324  
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Re: in which conditions a staystail will give extra speed when the asym is up?

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Now I am confused The asymmetrical spinnaker is a downwind sail. Are you not confusing it with a code 0?

Regards

Paulo
There are several Asyms, but the Code is an upwind sail.

Take this one, wind seems to come from about 90°: http://segelreporter.com/wp-content/...-sieger-ii.jpg

I am talking about A0, 1, 3 and 5 or G3 in this charts:
Vorwind Segel Performance Guide
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Re: T yachts

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Yes I have already posted about it. I love the boat. It belongs to the same category of other Italian fast cruisers that are not very well known like the NM yachts or M yachts. Great boats
You can have lots of pretty new T34s (built 2010/2011) for about 100k€ with a huge sail wardrobe. That's a competitive price if you consider a similar JPK 1010 (150000+x)... The interior for me looks much better for cruising.

Talking about competitive boats at competitive prices: Silva Hispaniola (European Champion in ORCi 2011, 5th at the WOrld Championships 2012), Judel Vrolijk designed, nealry new wardrobe:

http://www.bachyachting.nl/yachts/ht...c_aid-1234.htm

Last edited by robelz; 12-03-2013 at 09:00 AM.
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  #5326  
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Not expensive fast cruiser racers:

Quote:
Originally Posted by robelz View Post
You can have lots of pretty new T34s (built 2010/2011) for about 100k€ with a huge sail wardrobe. That's a competitive price if you consider a similar JPK 1010 (150000+x)... The interior for me looks much better for cruising.

Talking about competitive boats at competitive prices: Silva Hispaniola (European Champion in ORCi 2011, 5th at the WOrld Championships 2012), Judel Vrolijk designed, nealry new wardrobe:

Bach Yachting - Evento 42 Silva Hispaniola ORC
That is a 2004 boat, modified but even so a 2004 model, a one off with a racing interior. Regarding competitive boats in ORC that are also very good cruising boats you'd better look to the Salona 37/38 and the Comet 38 but not all the boats are the same and you would have to look to the specifications:

Salona 37:



http://www.bachyachting.nl/pdf/Yacht...chting_277.pdf

Salona - Salona 37 Race

Salona 37 race for sale - Daily Boats | Buy, Review, Price, Photos, Details

2007 Salona 37 for sale in 17480, Roses- Costa Brava, Spain - boats.com

Comet 38



Comar Comet 38 s year 2008

Comar Comet 38 yachts - Used boats

Regarding the JPK 10.10 it is very competitive in IRC and not as much on ORC. It is also competitive in solo or short crew racing, a thing that none of the others are besides it has a much better racing record and that means something in what regards demand and price

Regarding new boats and in what regards Price/performance/quality/cruiser and racer potential nothing beats the Salona.

Look at the price of new 38IBC with Carbon masts and basalt bulkheads:

https://b7420dbd-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites....attredirects=0

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-03-2013 at 12:50 PM.
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  #5327  
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Re: in which conditions a staystail will give extra speed when the asym is up?

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Originally Posted by robelz View Post
There are several Asyms, but the Code is an upwind sail.
but may be used by a shorthanded crew for all angles - well at least according to the linked article below...
interesting text btw written from on board neutrogena during the last barcelona world race:
How to Sail an Open 60 | Sailing World
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Premier 45 Boat test

The Premier 45 was designed by Botin and Carkeek. Marcelino Botin is also the designer of the fastest 40class racer around, at least if we consider the information from the last transat.

The Premier 45 was recently tested by a British rather conservative magazine (sailing today) and I was very curious about what they would find about a boat that represents the opposite of a conservative view in what regards cruising. Here was what they said:

"The Premier 45 has become the flagship of a relatively small but diverse range of yachts built in Dubai by Premier Composite Technologies. The company has grown from a small, specialist outfit, Speedwave, run in the late 1980s to manufacture components for grand prix yachts. Under German brothers Hannes and Max Waimer, they built the first carbon composite spreaders and rudder for Dennis Conner’s Stars & Stripes in 1988.

After a spell in Malaysia when the company was a prolific builder of Farr one designs including the Farr 30 (Mumm 30), Farr 40 and the Farr 52...

Being honest, the Premier 45 is a lot about indulgence. That is where it started out....

Sailing performance

I sailed the boat on the Solent twice during the same day. First time out we had 9 to 13 knots of wind from east-northeast, and a nice little chop. Then in the evening it was more like 7 to 10 knots and warmer.

I was not really quite sure what to expect in terms of performance. Would it be all showroom gloss or all performance, which would require a race crew?

The boat was certainly quick and pretty easy to sail. In its current guise, as tested, it is a boat which will delight the experienced, discerning owner.But it can be detuned slightly more for a more sedate, easier life. So you might spec a mainsail with slightly less aggressive roach if you are sailing more usually in moderate breezes, and with the power controls in place perhaps even an in-boom furling system.

On a beat, the Premier 45 was predictably close-winded, feeling very light and responsive on the helm and tracking positively. We could achieve 7.5 knots at 25° off the apparent wind without too much concentration or trimming required.

Keeping the mainsail leech nicely twisted when the breeze was up allowed us to settle and enjoy the ride. Easing the angles open a little more and we made a speed in the low 8s, rising to about 9 knots with the apparent wind on the beam. The rudder profile will get some further attention as it is perhaps very slightly too aggressive....

Setting the asymmetric gennaker is pretty easy. The retractable carbon bowsprit is controlled by a single outhaul line. We launched the light kite from a sock and were off in seconds towards the upper limit for the sail, making 10 knots and surging to over 11 knots at times with no real hassles and just three on board.

The helm remained light most of the time, very much more akin to a pedigree race boat in its feel. Suffice to say, the all-round sailing performance is sparkling but pleasingly manageable."


Premier 45: Review and test - Sailing Today | Sailing Today

I love the suggestion that the boat should have a furling boom

It seems that even if a bit upset they had to say that the boat was not only about showroom gloss and would not require a race crew. Then they talk about the boat being all about indulgence meaning probably that speed and sail pleasure are all about indulgence and they talk about a"toy" and imply that the boat is hugely expensive. In fact this an all carbon boat with a great cruising interior nad costs less than a Halberg Rassy 43 MkII, but there they would probably say that the quality justifies the price...and the HR is not a toy

So, do you understand why I said conservative magazine? But even so they took some interesting speed registers:

With between 9 and 13k? or with 7 to 10 knots? and light chopping seas the boat made:

with 25ºAW - 7.5K "without too much concentration or trimming required"

"Easing the angles open a little more and we made a speed in the low 8s, rising to about 9 knots with the apparent wind on the beam. "

Downwind with the asymmetric spinnaker they went at 10K surfing over 11K.

Yes, easy and fast, fun with a great performance upwind and a nice cruising interior this is my type of boat. I can understand that some would prefer an heavy and slower HR 43MKII but I find it amazing this boat being less expensive.

I hope it will make European boat of the year in the performance class. There, on the jury, with the exception of the British representative they are not a conservative lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The boat is average in what regards beam ( 4.15m) -for instance a much smaller Hanse 415 has 4.17m - but is hugely stiff, with 41% of B/D, considering a draft of 2.75m and a high profile torpedo keel. The draft is not a problem because the keel lifts in only 20 seconds to a very convenient cruising draft of 1.85m.

It is made with high tech materials and weights only 8000kg and that means that it does not need a big sail area to go very fast, in fact the boat has an upwind sail area similar to my boat (Comet 41) but can carry downwind an huge sail area: 260m2

The Premier 45 was tested recently by Yacht de and I was not surprised with their very flattering comments...it just confirms that Wow impression on Dusseldorf. They said:

"Elaborately built like a racer, comfortably equipped as a cruiser: The Premier 45 ideally combines the best of both worlds....she sails gorgeous, fast, agile and problem-free with a performance that is easy to access. This makes it a unique design both outside and inside...
..."


Premier 45: Charakter und Leistungsbereitschaft - Service*|*YACHT.DE









Marcelino Botin one of the designers comments on the boat:

“We are expecting the Premier 45 to be fast. It is quite a light boat with a hull based on the TP52 concept, with a wide, powerful stern section, but with high stability. But it is a cruiser, very fast for her size. In terms of performance she should excel both upwind and downwind. Upwind you have a good deep keel and plenty of sail area, and downwind she will fly. We expect her to be faster than the typical competition by a big amount.

” And for us as designers, it is great to have a high tech composite cruiser built in the very controlled environment that Premier has. It ensures that the boat comes out close to the design weight, and hence to the performance we expect.”
“There are a lot of owners who are looking for this type of boat, a smaller Wally-type yacht with a very minimalist, clean approach.”


Premier 45, the ultimate performance cruiser | JEC Composites

You can see more pictures here:

Botin Partners
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Last edited by PCP; 12-03-2013 at 12:35 PM.
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  #5329  
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Re: in which conditions a staystail will give extra speed when the asym is up?

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
... For what I can understand they don't use it in very strong winds neither in very light ones. They don't use it also when they are trying to go as downwind as they can. They use it in all other conditions even if some use it more than others.

...

I do not agree that the use of a staysail with a spinnaker in what regards racing is only useful on the mini racers but on the mini racers, or in any boat with a big spinnaker pole, it will be more effective. Well, I don't know any racer with a pole as big in proportion with its size as a mini-racer so Erick is right in pointing that it is specially useful on those boats.
These are very fast, planing boats that can create a strong and especially sharper incoming apparent wind. So even at let's say 120° true they can still keep a laminar airflow around the sails because the apparent wind will be somewhere around the beam.
Slower boats will be in the much less efficient turbulent airflow mode with only negative interaction between the sails (masking).

Dead downwind I think they only let the solent up to prevent the spinnaker from wrapping around the forestay when gibing.

Best regards,

Eric
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  #5330  
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Re: Aureus XV

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
... Regarding not doing the ARC on this one I hope you are kidding. This boat as I have said can work with hydraulics and electric engines but can also be sailed manually as a back up. It even has a self tacking stay sail. This boat is a carbon boat, very strong and with a huge stability. Eric, this is a 15 m boat with over 12 000kg od displacement a B/D ratio of 35% almost all of it in a torpedo at 2.60m . I am quite sure it is a very seaworthy boat not only to do the ARC but to go anywhere.
...
This is a wonderful design Paulo, don't let me be misunderstood.
But I still would't even do the ARC with it unless I had an engineer on board .

E.g. I wouldn't like the hydraulics to let me down when I want to roll the solent in a squall. Manual back-ups will always be a B plan on boats designed for push-button sailing, in this example it would mean going on deck to lower the sail.

I very much appreciate the NA's 14 point argumentation about the qualities of light displacement yachts .
It only seems very contradictionary to first build the lightest possible hull and then stuff it up with heavy hydraulics, dishwashers etc. .
That's why we have our son Jim as a "weight watcher", with almost dictatorial authorities .

Of course, as long as all the gizmo's keep on working properly, this yacht must be a **** star sailing palace . But we'll probably be faster in most conditions .

Best regards,

Eric
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