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  #5441  
Old 12-13-2013
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Irc

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
Interesting results of the ARC...
It just seems that when it comes to cruising and long distance passages, the speed advantage of the multis is just not there...

On another note:
Could anyone explain me how the TCCs are calculated?
I mean 1.652 for a volvo 70... Ok, but at the end of the list is a tp52 with 0.951 (if the last boats all have the same)... 2 pogo 40 with different ratings and a pogo 12.50 with an even lower rating... I do not get it...
http://www.worldcruising.com/content...ion%20List.pdf

Edit:
Keep this awesome thread going - it was the one which hooked me...
Thanks.

The boats are rated under IRC. IRC does not rate a model but each particular boat depending on sails, carbon masts, canting keels, and water ballast among other things. The rule is revised each year taking into account the race results from the last year. It is a secret rule and only the RORC Rating Office and UNCL Centre de Calcul in Paris (that own the rule) are able to attribute a ratting.

An Introduction to IRC

Offshore Documents

That's a lot more sophisticated and close to the boat's real performance than the PHRF or the Nordic LYS but in my opinion a let loss sophisticated and accurate than ORCI. Problem is that the French and the British use it while the ORCI is used more by Italians even if now is spreading quickly to Germany and Nordic countries. There was talking about unifying the two rules but it seems that the installed interests are too big

That's pretty ridiculous, here top race boats have two keels and change them according to the rule. Not a big difference but it can be enough for winning.

Regarding those two different ratings to two Pogo 40's (class 40 racing boats?) it has probably to do with the sails they have and age allowance (older boats have automatically a lower rating then new ones).

Regarding the big difference of those two Pogos 40 to the Pogo 12.50 (slower boat) it has to do with the 12.50 being a cruiser and the others racers. The Pogo 12.50 has the same hull as a Pogo class 40 racing boat but a smaller rig (without back-stay), a swing keel (the others have a racing keel with more draft - 3.0m) and does not have water ballast tanks.

By the way that beautiful hull that was posted by G1000 is a Pogo 12.50 hull, the one from his own new sailboat that is being built.

Regarding the TP52 you are mistaken. There is no rating there for it. The one you mention is attributed to a 8,5m boat a small cruising Pogo.

The IRC rating of a TP52 should be around 1360. The Tp52 is a top racing boat and the one that was making this Transat was a very poor sailed one.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-13-2013 at 01:33 PM.
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  #5442  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Thank you PCP - that explains a lot...
The outremer 64, which made line honours in the ARC+, is an austrian boat... Did not know that...

Back to the new RM...
I think that the place for the working winches just aside the companion way is somewhat awkward...
But a beautiful boat.
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  #5443  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
Thank you PCP - that explains a lot...
The outremer 64, which made line honours in the ARC+, is an austrian boat... Did not know that...

Back to the new RM...
I think that the place for the working winches just aside the companion way is somewhat awkward...
But a beautiful boat.
No it is not awkward. They have a long experience with this type of boats and the solution is used in other several fast boats of this type.

You have to consider that the main is a direct one, not needing winches and that the boat has a tiller so with the extension out you can reach the winches with the tiller on one hand not losing the control of the boat or needing the automatic pilot

Regards

Paulo
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  #5444  
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ARC - Arrivals

Let’s continue looking at the arrivals on the ARC:

On the next group after that Lagoon 44 entered the first medium weight 45fter, the one I consider one of best boats of this type, the XC 45, a beautiful boat with somewhat classic lines:



then a bigger an very expensive performance cruiser, a Sweden 54, followed at close range by a mass market cruiser of the same size, a Beneteau Oceanis 54:



Then a bigger performance cruiser, a C&C 61 followed at close range by the first 36fter, a First 36.7. Taking apart the Sunfast 3200, that is much more a racing boat than a cruiser, this was the first real “small” boat to finish the transat. Another Portuguese boat. Only three Portuguese boats on the Transat, the first one was that Lagoon 44 that finished ahead of many faster cats, this one, and a Dufour 40 that is not far. They all made a great Transat.



Then followed a bigger performance cruiser, a Grand Soleil 50. Some hours later come another group leading by a huge racer, a Challenge 72 ,the boat they used on the Global Challenge. Now they use a faster new one), then the 2nd First 40.7, a performance cruiser:



then a cat, a privilege 585, a Discovery 57, an Oyster 54, an Oyster 53 and another mass production boat with some years, a Gib sea 51:



A discovery 55 and close to it the first mass production cruiser (not a performance boat) with 40ft or less, a Dufour 385:



Great sailing on this one by an old Finnish septuagenarian owner, with 40 years of ocean racing experience, and an Italian Captain that is a great sailor. Followed a Vand de Stadt Moorea, also going very fast:



Some hours later arrived a fast Outremer 42 (cat) that here was not so fast followed by an Hanse 495 and another small performance cruiser, a X-412:



followed by an Oyster 625, and a Spirit 56:





Great performance for this type of boat. These guys sail in style.
then finished a Jeanneau 53, an Oyster 575, another fast cat, a Catana 471, an older Amel Maramu 2000 and the first Halberg Rassy, a 53fter, followed by a First 44.7 and the first 30fter, a brand new Pogo 30:



followed by an American Southerly 42 RST.



Just some words for the Pogo that made a great passage and for the Southerly that is the first medium weight 42fter to finish. I have to hide this from my wife. This is her preferred sailboat. The boat has a swing keel a very good interior and it is a true deck saloon with a great all around view. I discarded the boat explained to her that it was a very slow boat.

Conclusions: Much the same as on the last post with even more relevance for the number of Oysters and Discovery finishing on the head of the transat. Also a word for Beneteau and especially to the First line, with 4 boats among the first and with a 40.7 and a 36.7 doing a great performance.
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Last edited by PCP; 12-13-2013 at 04:09 PM.
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  #5445  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Personally find best "feel" is with a tiller, second with single wheel as moving less hardware. Given unless you are doing round the buoy races 95% or greater of the time boat is on AP if cruising so this is not a big issue for many sailors. Similarly given the no moving parts reliability of a tiller for voyagers a tiller may make great sense. With a tiller you can just tilt it up so the whole cockpit is clear when at anchor. Think it a shame fewer and fewer boats are offered with option of 1 wheel or two or tiller.
Agree with the preference for tiller steering, and we are not alone. Almost all the IMOCA 60's feature tiller steering - sometimes twin tillers on either side of the cockpit, sometimes two tillers terminating at a single point in the middle of the rear of the cockpit. The Sunfast 3200 features the twin tiller set-up, as well. For me, it is the best of both worlds - opens the rear of the boat, for easy access to the transom, but preserves the feel of tiller steering, particularly upwind.

Having said that, I've driven boats with big single wheels and double wheels, and prefer double wheels, particularly for buoy racing.
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  #5446  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

After that list regarding all those modern luxurious medium weight, performance cruisers and middle of the road mass market cruisers all with great interiors doing a fast transat I cannot resist to repost this old post about marina boats. It seems that it is what they all are, at least in Gusmus opinion...... and now we are talking about them not for 43 pages but for more than 500

Quote:
Originally Posted by gusmus View Post

43 Pages and I'm astounded. 10% of the posts on here are about how the boat actually sails and about its seakeeping qualities. 90% of the posts are about how big the bloody shower is. Jeez. Buy a caravan or go sailing bluewater and then decide how big the shower needs to be after a force 8 or 9 kicks you in the butt.. I have read the thread in "Almost" its entirity, which, is the reason I felt the need to post as I did.

Looking through the lists and photos of most of the boats mentioned I'd have to say that there are a huge amount of non sailing dreamers and/or marina dwellers posting. There are basically three types of sailor. The racer, The cruiser, AND, The Marina dweller. All three have specific needs when choosing a boat, but, when looking at interiors which will obviously become exagerated tumble dryers in anything above a force 4 I'll stick to my last post. Buy a caravan.....
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  #5447  
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Dufour 310 first images.

Lot's of people complaining that there are not new interesting 30fts on the market, well, this seems to be a luxury year in what regards 30ft boats: The Pogo 30, the RM 890, the Malango 888, Elan 320 and the Dufour 310.

Others complain that the boats are all the same...well these ones are all different and pointing to different styles of sailing and cruising. Quite a choice I would say

The Dufour represents the type of cruiser suited for more sailors, the typical program for a mass production boat, but the design is brilliant and Felci have managed to make a very balanced and beautiful boat.

I like Dufours, some have complained about its finish that I do not find worse than the competition, but the design is top and the performance....well, we have just to look at the ARC. We did not reach there in what regards statistics regarding smaller 38/40ft cruisers, but Dufour has been probably the brand that comes out better.

We will see that better but for now a beautiful 30ft and certainly a fast one, considering that it is not a performance cruiser. Great interior too

From the Nautic de Paris where the boat was presented:



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  #5448  
Old 12-14-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Maybe the Seascape 27 is the Pogo's little brother

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  #5449  
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Pogo 30

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Re: The first video with the new the RM 890, directly from the Nautic de Paris:

Voile and Voilers says about the boat:

"The much waited 890 RM that replaces the 880 does not disappoint on the quality of its design and on its accommodation: every detail of this Lombard Design is designed to facilitate navigation. The interior is bright and spacious and the boat feels like a much bigger boat. ..."[/QUOTE]

Thanks for posting the new RM. I've had great expectations to see this little yacht. The new canopy line, bow and fixed sprit are beautiful. RM, Pogo and even Dufour have an important understanding of winch ergonomics that translate from solo sailing very well. Winch placement for crewed racing is very diferrent, and does not translate to easy sailing or shorthand cruising at all. That is a compromise of racer-cruisers. I think there is a concept of performance cruising in La Rochelle which is very clear and different from racer cruisers. Even with a full family on board, especially with children, we find ourselves single-handing, and when things are in the "right" place for a single-hander, there is no need for "move out of the way", "pull here when I say", and all that yelling I often hear in some boats. Precisely why many families drop out of sailing, because they can't enjoy it while they're at it.

The canopy of the new 890 looks great, but too bad it doesn't work for the headroom (OUCH!). They should've stuck to the high 1060 canopy. I'm hoping they do a 1065 with the sexy lines of the 890. It would top my list for my next boat. That new Pogo 30 is a close second and the Dufour 310 looks great too.
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