Interesting Sailboats

[PCP]

As a way of giving a better information about the boats posted on this thread, I am going to post links to independent boat tests, regarding those boats.

Kind of a second opinion

The second one will be about the Beneteau (Oceanis) 37:

(posts 306 and 314)



"Beneteau took a good look at the basics when designing the new Oceanis 37. The result is a sociable, solid performing cruising yacht, says Andi Robertson
...
While sometimes subtle refinements and a few clever ideas are enough to move forward with a new model within a range of cruising yachts, with the Océanis 37 it was a back to basics look at the working areas of the boat. It is this that sets the new Finot Conq design apart from its rivals.

Interior comforts are a given, but it was the cockpit area which the Beneteau revisited from the basics. They took the desire to maximise safe seating space in the cockpit as perhaps the key element of the boat’s designed layout and ergonomics.
....
The new Océanis 37, like her latest stablemates, has a lovely, simple interior by Italy’s Nauta Design, but it was the layout and the efficient performance of the hull by Groupe Finot which sets her apart, leading something of a new concept in fast cruisers.

There are two immediately striking aspects to the new Océanis 37,..: the modern hull lines which in many respects echo aspects of the powerful Open class style boats for which Finot Conq are so well known, but still offering modern, sympathetic lines and a subtle coach roof and deck-line. From the stern quarters it is not hard to see the Class 40 style lines with maximum beam carried well aft, forming a broad powerful stern.

As well as being the ultimate family cruiser this is a boat which is well set up for short handed, easy sailing with a good, big overlapping genoa set on a roller furler and, on our test boat, a simple stacking style mainsail.

So as well as being a boat the whole family can cruise extensively together, there is the capacity to easily sail it for miles short handed on ‘deliveries’, when the whole team is not available, returning to base short handed or heading to a more exotic location short handed.
......
The cockpit table is excellent as is the wheel and pedestal, but it is the flip up liferaft locker on the port quarter which is a really clever innovation. Supported on a gas strut, literally the whole back quarter of the stern lifts to cockpit floor level to house the liferaft.

There are three big other lockers. On the opposite side is a sail locker, which looked a little tight to keep a dinghy in, even well deflated.
.....
Sadly we only had a light breeze to sail the Océanis 37. But there was enough to learn that this is an easily driven and easily handled performer.
In a light sea breeze the new 37 answered the smallest puffs and was quick enough to build control and steerage.
....
A consensus quickly develops when with a posse of like minded media testers on board we were pleasantly surprised by how well the Océanis 37 sails.
...
The day’s enjoyment on the new 37 was completed with the 90sq.m asymmetric gennaker. It really pushed the boat along quite pleasantly requiring minimum attention and would take the breeze forward of the beam with ease. Under the circumstances it was a perfect scenario, gently drawing a clean wake across the flat Mediterranean Sea on a warm February day.
......
Down below the Océanis is excellent in every living department. With no fewer than 14 windows or ports of all shapes and sizes there is a lovely light, airy feel. There are two layout options, one with a pair of symmetrical double aft cabins, and one with one single athwart-ships owner’s aft cabin. But so too, the big, spacious forecabin is fantastic with lots of headroom and a small vanity unit or desk.
The new boats have deep, well protected overhead windows in the roof which afford lots of light.
....
The galley too, is great with a big, forward opening fridge unit and big twin stainless sinks. There are two large cupboards and four closed shelved systems. While we like the effect of wood closures to shelf fronts, we also appreciate that plexiglass allows you to see what is in the shelves without opening them.
...
Overall we’d concur with France’s Voile magazine that, for its size and purpose, the Océanis is a boat of the year for 2008. For cruising, and even the odd local race, ...in real comfort, in the Océanis 37."

Yachting Life


The latest sailboat from the world’s most prolific builder is a near perfect example of why Beneteau is the world’s most prolific builder. It understands the market. It knows what we want in a boat and it delivers it to us time after time. This new model, the Beneteau 37, is stylish and clean on deck, the interior is comfortable and thoughtfully laid out, it performs very well but is also easy to sail and to maintain, and it’s affordable. Manufactured in South Carolina, there’s little doubt that Beneteau has launched another best-seller. ...
I took a brand-spanking-new 37 out for a SAILING Magazine Boat Test after the Miami Boat Show. The midmorning breezes were fickle but that didn’t stop us from shutting down the engine as soon as we cleared the dock and working our way south on the ICW under sail. The boat is extremely nimble and, I confess, we were showing off a bit by quick-tacking across the 200-yard channel. Overtaking the powerboats putting along in the No Wake zone was rather nice. Once we had a bit of breathing room, we eased the sheets and sped along at 6-plus knots. The apparent wind was 8 knots.

The 37 combines the established talents of naval architects from Groupe Finot with elegant interior styling from Milan-based Nauta Design. The result is a thoroughly modern look that marries form and function in a very user-friendly package. ....

Beneteau has a proven construction philosophy that might be summed up like this: Build rock solid fiberglass hulls with balsa-cored decks; use interior molded pieces to streamline production; use scale purchasing power to offer savings that other builders can’t match; and finally, finish boats out to a high standard. Despite building more boats than any other company, Beneteau gets the details right. The new 37 has superb fiberglass sculpting throughout. The intricate diamond pattern nonskid that offers excellent traction but is easy on the feet is one of many examples.

...This is a long-winded way of saying that the new Beneteau 37 is efficient on all points of sail right out of the box, or right off the dock.
....
The cockpit is quite wide and very comfortable. The 37 doesn’t have much taper to the hull shape, holding its beam well aft. The wheel is located well aft and at the helm you feel like you’re sitting on the transom. I like this perspective. It gives you a full view of the sails and a direct connection to the rudder. When you give the leather-covered 36-inch wheel a small turn the boat responds immediately. There are three cockpit lockers, including a huge sail locker to starboard. ...

The external chain locker forward is deep and large enough to carry an honest amount of ground tackle. The stanchions support double lifelines and the pulpits on both ends of the boat are robust. ....

The interior is surprisingly bright and airy. I say this because the sleek deck profile would not suggest this result below. However, every living space has a minimum of one natural light and air source. Also, bright white molded pieces help to keep things light. The layout is practical and the finish is lovely. ..
...
Access to the aft cabin is through the galley. Billed as the guest cabin, it is roomy and includes a genuine double berth and hanging locker. The head and nav station are opposite the galley to port. The head includes a stall shower and is more spacious than heads in older model Beneteaus. .. Most 37s will include a microwave oven above the chart table.

The portlights flood the saloon with light, and seem bigger below than from on deck. The hull ports also add light and sense of space. Opening portlights and a large overhead hatch afford terrific ventilation.

The owner’s cabin is forward. I was surprised to find that there’s plenty of headroom, 6 feet, 3 inches to be precise, and that adds to the spacious feel of this comfortable cabin. ...There is a lot of stowage with a hanging and shelved locker to starboard and large lockers below the berth. Another big overhead hatch and bright and efficient halogen lights make this cabin user-friendly.

There’s enough water tankage to avoid installing a watermaker right away. All together there’s 98 gallons with tanks under the aft bunk, and the forward section of the forward bunk. ...

A 29-horsepower Yanmar diesel is very fuel efficient and provides enough power to push the 37 along at more than 6 knots in protected waters. Truthfully, the boat sails so well, and is so easy to sail, the engine will primarily be used for getting in and out of the marina. The 52-gallon fuel tank will likely last all season. ...

Under sail
Back on Biscayne Bay the wind remained fickle. Bringing the boat hard up on the wind it accelerated smartly. Pinching high, 35 degrees apparent, we kept the boat moving. The 37 is a sailor’s boat, you can feel the rudder at all times and the boat talks to you. If you get a bit too high you know it immediately and a modest correction gets you back in the groove. I like a boat that you sail by the seat of your pants and by the wind on your face, not just by instruments. ...

The new Beneteau 37 is destined for success. Despite the weak dollar, the base price of $139,900 makes the boat a great value. ..

Sailing Magazine | Beneteau 37

For this 37-footer, designers Finot/Conq gave the hull a beamy stern and a high-performance keel (a backwards L in profile) made of cast-iron. They placed the chainplates and shrouds right out on the gunwales, providing good support for the mast, an arrangement that limits the length of the headsail and so restricts the area. This makes the headsail relatively easy to tack, a good idea on a family boat; a good idea on any boat, for my money?anything to reduce the drudgery of winching.

This rig layout is standard practice on grand prix boats, but it also works well on cruisers because it is simple. The mast needs to be a little taller to recover some of the sail area lost by the small headsail, but the wide shroud base helps support it.

Modern accommodation
The accommodation layout is classic modern, an owner's cabin forward, two double cabins aft. This boat's stern is so wide that in the starboard aft cabin the berth is almost as wide as it is long. And you can lie in bed and watch the waves astern, through the opening port in the transom, a luxury enjoyed by the likes of Cook and Flinders and Bligh, but few yachtsmen since.

More than 20 years ago Beneteau invented the user-friendly galley. More accurately they introduced design details which made life easier for sailors and they still come up with new ideas for interiors. In the benchtop there's an icebox which doubles as a crockery storage. You can put the beer here, or if you want to sail before you do the washing up, stick the dishes in here.

And another new idea: Behind the settee is a small table lamp. You can lift it out and take it upstairs and plug it into a socket in the cockpit table for atmospheric dining al fresco.

There's a third new idea: A clear washboard lives in a groove beneath the main hatch. Pull it aft and it drops down into place. Easy to do when closing up after a sail, and it encourages you to do it early if the weather's getting nasty, rather than put it off until the cook is getting wet. And the fridge is a surprise, a domestic model with shelves in the front-opening door.

Setting sail
This Oceanis has a big cockpit. It is wide and it is long, not always the case with European boats. This feature alone makes this an 'Aussie' boat.
The wheel is big but there are cutouts in the cockpit seats so you can walk around easily. Alongside the helmsman the portside seat lifts up to take a small inflatable tender, or the liferaft.

The Harken #44 headsail winches are near the wheel and can be reached by the helmsman. On the coachroof are the winches, which handle all the boat's control lines. ..

The 30hp Yanmar (with shaft drive) is quiet and easily pushes the hull up to 7.3 knots and still accelerating. ...

Easy to steer
This Oceanis's steering is as good as it gets. It is light but not too light, and quite high-geared; ...

Easing her to windward in a fitful sou'wester was an absolute joy, made easier by the fact that I could see the telltales from the wheel's windward side. The teak foot supports are big. I would like to tell you more but the morning's sharp offshore breeze was squeezed out as the day warmed up, and we ran out of wind. The Oceanis has only a modest amount of sail, but she did well in the light breeze.

Single-handing is easy. The skipper can reach the headsail winches, and Brendan let her sail herself for minutes at a time in the breeze as he fiddled with the gear. It was his first sail on this brand-new boat.

Price? The base figure is $285,000, a little below market standard for this size.
....

Motion of the ocean - Boat Tests - Modern Boating Magazine - Australia's leading boating and sailing magazine - Modernboating.com.au

Regards

Paulo

[nemier]

THIS IS THE THREAD OF THE YEAR FOR ME! THANKS PAULO.
But I'm getting bummed out. I'm currently up in the northern sector of the North Sea with a VERY slow internet connection...I can't watch the video's. Pictures are good though!

[slap]

I've been going back through this thread. About the Presto 30:

Originally Posted by PCP

Of course you are right about the standing height, at least for big guys:



But I believe that (like me) he would prefer to bend (or sit) than having an ugly boat with a big freeboard. Thats a choice of compromises.

I went on the Presto 30 at the Annapolis boat show. I stood at the galley, simulating cooking. For most of the time I could stand up straight through the main hatch. The boat had a dodger which didn't interfere with standing up in the galley and offered a fair bit of protection.

I was told that they were looking into offering a "pop-top" arrangement.

[PCP]

Originally Posted by slap

I've been going back through this thread. About the Presto 30:
I went on the Presto 30 at the Annapolis boat show. I stood at the galley, simulating cooking. For most of the time I could stand up straight through the main hatch. The boat had a dodger which didn't interfere with standing up in the galley and offered a fair bit of protection.

I was told that they were looking into offering a "pop-top" arrangement.

A pop-top arrangement would go beautifully with the boat style and with the kind of open air,free and adventurous use this boat was designed for. I would love to see this innovative boat became a commercial success but given the very traditional profile of the American sailor that is not probably going to happen. Anyway I am happy to see that it was not only me that have found that boat very interesting and that he was elected (by Sailing Magazine) as boat of the year.

Regards

Paulo

[PCP]

Originally Posted by nemier

THIS IS THE THREAD OF THE YEAR FOR ME! THANKS PAULO.
But I'm getting bummed out. I'm currently up in the northern sector of the North Sea with a VERY slow internet connection...I can't watch the video's. Pictures are good though!

Thanks Nemier







Voiles et Voiliers : Essais et comparatifs - Video voile, first 30 Bénéteau*: bande annonce de l'essai complet

YouTube - First 30 Test Sail

YouTube - First 30sd

YouTube - First 30 - L'anteprima Beneteau di SoloVela

Continuing that second opinion about the boats posted on this thread, let's see what others say about the the new First30.

The First 30 is very different, not surprising since it is the brainchild of innovative designer Juan K, who seems to be very hot right now, his boats are winning all over the place. We were told by others who had seen it that we should be prepared to be both wowed and surprised. Wowed by how good it was, and surprised by how it differed from the norm. They were correct.

Upon walking up to the boat you realize that this is one very large boat for its length, but that really it is like two boats in one. Standing at the mast and looking forward, it looks like a 30 footer at most, since the forward part of the boat is narrow. But turn around and look aft and you would think you are on a boat ten feet longer because it is so wide.
....

First, the boat is big and behaves like a bigger boat under sail or power. The cockpit is enormous. The deck hardware is excellent. The engine is really smooth and quiet, amazingly so. There are plenty of sail controls and two come to mind as being especially nice. The jib in-haulers are easily adjustable from the weather side, and the Harken adjustable jib cars could be readily moved with the standard tackles even in the 20 knots of air we had. Winches were plenty big. I was worried about the short tiller, but the boat is so easily balanced that we had plenty of mechanical advantage and you can steer from several different positions. ...

Before we talk about sailing the boat we'll mention the interior, which was another pleasant surprise. Very nicely finished, roomier than expected, and with more headroom than expected. This boat has a very usable cabin, galley, head and sleeping areas, with good ventilation as well. ... What we have is a boat that can be enjoyed for multiple uses, and that also makes for better resale value down the road.

As nice as the boat is on deck and below, and as nicely fitted-out as it is, the real purpose of the First 30 is to go sailing. We were hoping that over the course of the day we might have some varying conditions so we could test the boat over a range of wind. What we got was 15-20 knots of fairly steady strong breeze all day in advance of a front. T... 99% of the time we sailed the boat is lots of wind. And that is the good news, the First 30 was a blast to sail in that stuff.

... I am accustomed to the helm really loading up on boats with a wide transom, but on the First 30 the helm was still very nice when heeled. When you crack off and head downwind the wide aft section is now in the water, and so are both rudders. Loads of stability and steering control on this point of sail. I should also add that the boat has a hard chine that also improves stability.

The First 30 is designed to be sailed heeled when going upwind, and it will be fastest when doing so. However, you can reef the boat and sail with less heel and it balances really well. In the morning we went out with full main and jib in 20 knots of air. While the boat handles it, it was more comfortable later in the day when we rolled up part of the jib and reefed the main. The speed seemed to be at least as good, and the boat just loved it. Another surprise was how well the boat handled the chop, which grew larger and steeper as the day wore on. We never once felt the boat slap or pound, which seems crazy considering the hull shape, but the design of the plumb bow is different from what you have seen before. Juan K obviously knows a thing or two about making a boat go through waves. We had a blast sailing the boat and we hated to come in and rush back to the airport.

The overall impression of sailing the boat in breeze is that it feels bigger than it is, very solid, very easily controlled, and fun to sail. We only got the spinnaker up for maybe 10 minutes because we had to meet someone at the dock, but it was a really fun ride (before we lost one of the sheets and had to take it down).


Scuttlebutt - Sailing Forum: INDUSTRY NEWS: Boats: Beneteau First 30

Feedback from initial sea trials was highly positive from those involved, and Ingouf, although understandably partial, is excited with what they’ve come up with. “It’s a boat that’s well balanced,” he says. “You never have the feeling you’re losing control. It’s light, balanced and stiff.”

In winds up to 20 knots, he says, they were still using the entire sailplan. “What’s really impressed me is the way it goes through the chop. It doesn’t pitch at all.”

Boat Review: The Beneteau First 30 Goes Modern | Sailing World

The new First 30 is a bold choice for one of the largest sailboat builders in the world. An entirely new design by Juan Kouyoumdjian (with technical input from double Vendee Globe winner Michel Desjoyeaux), it features twin rudders, torpedo keel, full-width traveller and no backstay.

As the rockstar designer du jour, getting Juan K to take on a moderately priced 30-foot sailboat is a major coup. (for those who don’t know, Juan K is perhaps best known as the designer of the 2005 Volvo 70 winners, ABN Amro 1 and 2. Then he designed the winner of the 2008 – 2009 Volvo Ocean Race, Ericsson 4.)

Juan’s influence is heavily felt on this boat, working within the parameters set by Beneteau. You see it in the shape of the hull, with the short, fixed bowsprit, wide hips and blunt bow. The aggressive rig. The full-width traveller in the stern, and gross and fine-tune controls on the mainsheet. The foot-braces on the deck. The First 30 is optimised for IRC racing, with a choice of aluminum or carbon rigs, at least in Europe.

.. this is a fast boat. Torpedo keel, wide stern designed for surfing, and aggressive rig (SA/D ratios of around 25). We’ll have to see how the rating turns out (preliminary IRC is 1.001, or about 92 PHRF), but overall, the boat promises to be a fantastic downwind ride, while being fast enough upwind for you to enjoy it. I’d expect this to be a good choice in any venue which gets 15 to 20 knots regularly due to its surfing potential.

I really like the twin rudders – these add great control while being heeled over, while also eliminating vibration from the prop wash on a traditional, single rudder. Of course, you can’t direct the thrust of the 20 horsepower saildrive in the same way, but with a boat of this small size, you have pretty good control manuevering. The twin rudders also help the boat maneuver under sail.

The boat sails well, too. In our 6 to 10 knots, both uphill and downhill, it almost sailed itself. Even when relatively powered up with a big asym chute, you could let go of the beefy tiller and it would continue on its own.

The sail control systems are fantastic. Really love the traveller – full width (and I do mean full – check out those photos) – and with easy-to-use control lines. No backstay at all – use the traveller, the mainsheet, vang sheeting, and, ultimately, a reef if it is over 20. Low-profile roller furler on the jib is another nice touch – lets you put a little more sail area on it down low.

... the sailing setup is one of the best I’ve seen.

What about cruising? ... This boat has a real interior. The overall design down below is well executed. This is a good layout. Aft head, forward main cabin, quarterberth for kids or race crew. It works. To have a full navigation station, forward stateroom with standing room and closing doors, and kitchen on a 30 foot race boat is impressive. Six feet of head room, including in the head / shower. And there is good storage in the starboard quarter due to the wide beam. Remarkable.
....
For cruising, the sail controls actually work pretty well too. There is a full six feet of headroom in the cockpit under the boom – an important safety issue. No backstays simplifies the controls. The big cockpit is comfortable for guests, with wide sitting area for the driver or for lounging in the cockpit. No traveller to step over, either. ....
....

Fuel and water will be limited, but this isn’t a boat you’re likely to sail across an ocean.

Conclusions
This is an impressive boat. The more you look at it, the more you realize the design team really put a lot of effort into getting the systems right for sailors. Go though the Pro list – they nailed all the key sail handling systems. On the down side, this is a production boat built to a price point. You see that down below with cabinetry and a look and feel which is on par, but not better than the typical Beneteau offering. This is a good looking interior, but not one built with a price-no-object ethos.

In the end, it is all about value. With a base price of $100,000, plus an extra $25k for sails and electronics, this is a lot of bang for your buck. You can’t get a good 10-year-old J/105 for that. Compare to the Jenneau SunFast (PHRF around 81, at $182,000 sailaway), and the J/95 (PHRF 109, at $179,000 with the carbon rig, including $20k of sails, electronics and delivery fees). In the end, you could take this boat out for the weekend series with the race crew, and then cruise with a family for a week.

Beneteau First 30 Review | North American Sailor

Regards

Paulo

[myocean]

Hi guys!
So regarding such fast boats I have another question:
I currently wonder about polar diagrams and the difference between such a boat with a wide, flat stern like a first 30 or a pogo and a more conventional hull shape.
It's always said that boats like a Pogo are fast downwind but rather slow when sailing close to the wind.

Now, when comparing the polar diagrams of a Pogo 12.50 and a First 40 I see that the Pogo seems to be even faster close to the wind.
So do I understand the attached data correctly? And is such data usually trustworthy or in many cases exaggerated?
In the real life the First 40 is may be faster in many situations, or not?

Ulf

See Pogo 12.50 on the top and First 40 below.

[PCP]

Originally Posted by myocean

Hi guys!
...
It's always said that boats like a Pogo are fast downwind but rather slow when sailing close to the wind.

Now, when comparing the polar diagrams of a Pogo 12.50 and a First 40 I see that the Pogo seems to be even faster close to the wind.
So do I understand the attached data correctly? And is such data usually trustworthy or in many cases exaggerated?
In the real life the First 40 is may be faster in many situations, or not?

Ulf

....

Who says that?

Regarding the polars they consider flat water. With waves, probably the First will drag less water and certainly will be more comfortable , but I doubt that it will be faster, at least with all the winds. Anyway the difference will not be big.

You should read this boat test:

YouTube - Match au sommet voiliers de 40 pieds !

They have made a comparison between a Dufour 40e, an Opium 39 and a Pogo 40 cruising (12.50 prototype). The wind was a good force 5 and the sea had short waves. Close to the wind the speed were the same (7.5), with the Opium (with a worst sail, the original was stolen) making less 5º to the true wind.

They have said that the Dufour is a little better with winds lighter than 20K and the Pogo a bit better over 20k. The Dufour is more comfortable and passes better the short waves, the Pogo passes in power (I believe that is why he needs more wind to be faster than the Dufour).

Downwind the Pogo rules with 12k with the other boats making 8/9K.

Regards

Paulo

[myocean]

Hi Paulo!
Sorry, had no time the recent days. The comparison of this three boats is very interesting!
As said before I am thinking about what is the right boat for me when aiming for long haul cruising with kids but still somehow sportive. So a First 30 is too small but I really like it to see that even Beneteau is now building boats with some design elements from the open class boats.

By the way: I am sure there has been a period of time when you had a closer look at multihulls. What was your main conclusion about such boats? (E.e from Outremer)
Ulf

[PCP]

Originally Posted by myocean

Hi Paulo!
...
As said before I am thinking about what is the right boat for me when aiming for long haul cruising with kids but still somehow sportive. So a First 30 is too small but I really like it to see that even Beneteau is now building boats with some design elements from the open class boats.

By the way: I am sure there has been a period of time when you had a closer look at multihulls. What was your main conclusion about such boats? (E.e from Outremer)
Ulf

I don't know your budget but I would say that for really comfortable and fast "long haul cruising" with kids but still "somehow sportive" there are two boats that seems to fill that bill perfectly, the Cigale (14 or 16) and the RM 1350. I have posted about those boats on this thread.

For Sale. Alubat (FR) CIGALE 14 NEW - ALTO ADRIATICO, Italy - 2698431

Cigale 16 100% NEW < Gamme Cigale < Les Gammes

RM YACHTS | RM 1350

There are more options, but they are almost custom boats and more expensive.

About your question regarding Cats, I will post when I have more time.

Regards

Paulo

[nemier]

Paulo,
I'm also considering a large cat right now, so would be very interested to hear what you have to say about any catamaran.
Eagerly waiting...!