Interesting Sailboats - Page 55 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree1266Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #541  
Old 01-14-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,179
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Ovni 395

Quote:
Originally Posted by OsmundL View Post
....
Cockpit: this is clearly a subjective preference, but X-38 is just too open for my kind of sailing. I need a sprayhood – indeed I replaced the canvas sprayhood on Ovni with my very own fiberglass structure, giving far better visibility in rain. In combinations of cold, wind and rain, some shelter in the cockpit is virtually a necessity for enduring 10-12 hours of sailing. This is something you know for sure in situations when top standard Musto ocean gear over wool in several layers still leaves you cold. The human machine must also function.

....
Overall: I am impressed with all X-Yachts. This is very individual, but if I should have a reservation about them (and all of their type) it is that they give you some extra performance but not enough. If your focus is regatta, they fit right in. If you enjoy fast sailing, why not go all out and really notice the speed?

The Ovni is adequate and can be fun; a friend recorded a max of 11,6 knots on his maiden voyage in a 365. I count averages of 5-6 knots long distance and become very impatient if it drops below 5 knots. 9 knots downwind on Genoa goes well, and a Gennaker fills in the gap. In most conditions you’re talking 1-2 knots more in X-38, but in heavy seas probably less. Sometimes when we judge sailboats, we rely too much on optimal wind, and they are after all not the rule. You spend a lot of time out there...
You are comparing it with the Xp-38?

I don't understand what you mean regarding the sprayhood. The Xp 38 has a sprayhood as an option.

The OVNI 395 is a nice cruising boat, but a sailor interested in one would never have looked seriously to a XP 38 as an option and vice versa. The 395 is a boat that needs at least 10k of wind to get a decent speed. The X 38 needs half of that to have about the same speed. With medium winds yes, you would be talking about 1,5/2K difference, but that is huge, even on a cruising boat. Cruising sailors mount folding propellesr just to get 0.5K more speed

Downwind with medium/strong winds, the OVNI has good performance, but if the XP 38n is not with excess load you can get 14K, comparing with 10K on the 395.However the biggest difference would be upwind, with the Xp making 30º to true wind and the OVNI making 50º. On bad weather with strong winds and waves the difference between the ability to make way upwind would be enormous, with the OVNI finding quickly its limits in what regards making way against a strong wind and an heavy see.

Of course, the OVNI has many advantages in what regards cruising being one of them to be able to carry a much bigger payload and to see its performances less affected by the extra weight.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 11:01 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #542  
Old 01-14-2011
OsmundL's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Norway (sometimes)
Posts: 361
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 6
OsmundL is on a distinguished road
Those abstract numbers

Quote:
Originally Posted by myocean View Post
:-)
Actually I really like the XP38 very much.
It is in the same price range like your Ovni. What do you think about the two in comparison? What would you miss on an XP38?
Ulf
Thanks for pushing me to look closer. Why not put some vital stats of Xp-38 alongside Ovni 395? The similarities are striking, although nuances are obvious. Luckily, the two have identical LWL, making for sensible comparison.

There is a set of formulae often used for estimating performance and so forth; you can find them at US Sailing:
Sailboat Design and Stability

All possible caution should be exercised with these formulae; they are oversimplified compared to what designers work with, but they are a guide if no more. If you disagree with them, don't shoot the messenger! In the right column I have posted part of the explanations given at the site (they are not my opinions, or if they are I didn’t know).

The page gives brief summaries on topics such as stability, the most poignant being: “most important factor is an experienced crew,” in part based on debriefings from the Sydney-Hobart. Personally I am skeptical of the “capsizing formula” when real-life conditions are more black and white than this. As stated on the site, “A 40 foot sailboat no matter how stable will not consistently survive a 22 foot breaking wave. Thus, in a strong gale with 22 foot seas and breaking waves, a 40 foot sailboat is at risk of capsizing no matter how stable.” It is simple math of LOA versus wave height. By the same token, waves don’t come alone, and even a fully capsized boat has a chance of being righted by a following wave.

Back on topic: Taking the formulae at face value, the Ovni and Xp-38 have identical hull speed. The Ovni lags Xp-38 but actually peeps into “racer” territory when it comes to SA/D. Ovni is also a long way off the “heavy cruiser” category regards D/L, though not in the light X-38 class. The remaining calculations are within sight of each other – Xp-38 somewhat stiffer, Ovni somewhat higher on comfort, with stability measures in shared territory – neither brilliant but within sight of acceptable.

Real differences, not revealed in formulae, lie in sail handling gear, details in hull shape and more. I noted the claim that X-38 can “plane” – just for reference: so does Ovni, and it can do it with the keel up. Good fun!

Overall, the numbers resonate with gut feelings, that both are good boats and in real-life usage not as dramatically different as one might assume.
Attached Thumbnails
Interesting Sailboats-vital-formulas-ovni395.jpg  
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #543  
Old 01-14-2011
OsmundL's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Norway (sometimes)
Posts: 361
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 6
OsmundL is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
You are comparing it with the Xp-38?
Sure. The Xp-38 I just posted, because I was too dumb to read threads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I don't understand what you mean regarding the sprayhood. The Xp 38 has a sprayhood as an option.
I know that, of course. My reference is to sailing with one, which compromises upwind performance of the Xp-38, even if in a minor way – it goes against “the concept.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The OVNI 395 is a nice cruising boat, but a sailor interested in one would never have looked seriously to a XP 38 as an option and vice versa.
Not true! I would, and have. Many sailors are on the borderline between two types of boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The 395 is a boat that needs at least 10k of wind to get a decent speed. The X 38 needs half of that to have about the same speed. With medium winds yes, you would be talking about 1,5/2K difference, but that is huge, even on a cruising boat. Cruising sailors mount folding propellesr just to get 0.5K more speed

Downwind with medium/strong winds, the OVNI has good performance, but if the XP 38n is not with excess load you can get 14K, comparing with 10K on the 395.However the biggest difference would be upwind, with the Xp making 30º to true wind and the OVNI making 50º. On bad weather with strong winds and waves the difference between the ability to make way upwind would be enormous, with the OVNI finding quickly its limits in what regards making way against a strong wind and an heavy see.
Again, this is exaggerated. In 7 knots wind Ovni goes happily upwind; I draw the line at 6 knots, it certainly does not need 10. And yes, folding propeller is a given. Yes, Xp-38 is very good upwind, but your angles are exaggerated. 50º upwind? Nope. 30º apparent wind is my preferred gauge reading, and that can be up to 5º worse than good boats, but nowhere near 50º to true wind. My lazy rule is to tack through 90º or a bit less. The trick to handling it upwind in strong winds is to reef, then it pounds along. Anecdotal but true: a year ago a whole bunch of boats of all sizes were shorebound for more than a week near the worst cape in Norway, with light gales against. In the end I got impatient and sailed past – and I was the only one. It was wet but fun. I doubt very much that I was the brave hero here – I just trusted my boat more.

I want to avoid pitching Ovni against Xp-38 because the thread is more interesting without, but it is sometimes worthwhile to tune down some apparent differences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Of course, the OVNI has many advantages in what regards cruising being one of them to be able to carry a much bigger payload and to see its performances less affected by the extra weight. Regards
Paulo
To be honest, that is one of those stock replies many give to “cruisers,” an almost backhanded compliment; the understatement being “not much of a sailboat.” I have been trying to show that e.g. Ovni can give a good sailing experience, and that seeking the middle road – which an Xp-38 is, after all – just isn’t sexy enough for me. When I want to go fast, I want something much more lively than an X-Yacht. Xp-38 is a 38ft, 14,000 pound yacht no matter how you turn it. And the little addendum "affected by extra weight" is a harsh reality that modifies those theoretical ideals a great deal.

I am trying to define the following: There are good racing boats – you’ve had a few in this thread. There are cruisers. Then there are what I’d call “regatta boats”: quicker than cruisers and good because you can enter races, but nowhere close to the exhilaration of racers. To me, the latter are the real compromises.

I am not trying to promote Ovni, so on with more boats, everybody!

Last edited by OsmundL; 01-14-2011 at 02:20 PM. Reason: minor clarification
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #544  
Old 01-14-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,179
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by OsmundL View Post
...
Not true! I would, and have. Many sailors are on the borderline between two types of boat.
Osmundl,

On this thread I try to be fair about all kinds of boats. What I mean when I say that a typical sailor would not chose between an OVNI and s Xp-38 and vice versa it is becauseit is not logical to pass from a relatively slow boat to a top performance boat. There would have several boats in between, from a relatively fast cruiser like the Dufour 405 or the Jeanneau 409, to fast cruisers like the Jeanneau 409 with a performance rig or the RM 1200. What would be normal about that border line, would be to cross to the next step, or even two steps, not from one side to another


Quote:
Originally Posted by OsmundL View Post
Again, this is exaggerated. In 7 knots wind Ovni goes happily upwind; I draw the line at 6 knots, it certainly does not need 10....
Of course you can, but I was talking about a decent speed. With 7K wind you will be doing about 3K, the Xp 38 will be doing about 6K.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OsmundL View Post
Yes, Xp-38 is very good upwind, but your angles are exaggerated. 50º upwind? Nope. 30º apparent wind is my preferred gauge reading, and that can be up to 5º worse than good boats, but nowhere near 50º to true wind. My lazy rule is to tack through 90º .....
No, you are confusing true wind with apparent wind. When you say that you tack through 90º you are saying that you are making 45º to the true wind. What I am saying is that the Xp makes 30º to the true wind. That's a huge difference, as it was to be expected. Those 45º degrees would be obtained not easily. It would be needed a lot of wind. Read what they say about the OVNI 395 sail performance on this test (and these guys are used to test all kind of boats):

"6K real wind, it's very little for this sailboat, the use of the engine is needed...
We can go till 50º of the true wind, when the wind increases to 20k we can make 45º to the true wind..."


Ovni 395 : un dériveur intégral qui tient ses promesses

I never sailed an Ovni 395, but on the many thousands of miles I have made with my Bavaria 36 (long keel, performance rig and good sails) I have always outsailed Ovnis (even the 435) and similar boats and I have a pretty good idea of their comparative performance. Even against the Bavaria, that could outperform on speed and heading an Oceanis 390 (by 5º), an OVNI would point about 10º worse (5º worse than an Oceanis) and the Xp 38 would outperform the Bavaria pointing ability for almost 10º.

Osmundl, I like the OVNI 395, I love the concept and that one is even well designed, but there are no miracles and the boats perform accordingly with what they are designed for. The OVNI is like a four wheel drive, It can go everywhere, but as all good four whell drive, it is not fast specially if compared with a Xp38 that would be like a sleek sports car. It would not be fair to compare a Porsche with a jeep. They are not designed to do the same thing, but in what regards speed... well there are a huge difference.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 01-14-2011 at 07:00 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #545  
Old 01-14-2011
OsmundL's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Norway (sometimes)
Posts: 361
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 6
OsmundL is on a distinguished road
This but no more

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Osmundl,
Iit is not logical to pass from a relatively slow boat to a top performance boat. There would have several boats in between, from a relatively fast cruiser like the Dufour 405 or the Jeanneau 409, to fast cruisers like the Jeanneau 409 with a performance rig or the RM 1200.
To me, that’s just silly. Why go in-between? The differences are too marginal for my tastes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Of course you can, but I was talking about a decent speed. With 7K wind you will be doing about 3K, the Xp 38 will be doing about 6K.
You are telling me how fast my boat sails Sorry, but this is where you are wrong. I do not do “3 knots” in 7k upwind, I do between 5,4 and 6. The moment wind drops below 7, however, you would be right, Ovni just loses it. I do log these figures and have done so for many thousand miles, including times between ports for a double check; you rely on the (not too many) tests that exist. Downwind, in the same wind and without the aid of a gennaker, you would be right, it manages only ½ wind speed in those conditions, not good, as I said earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
No, you are confusing true wind with apparent wind. When you say that you tack through 90º you are saying that you are making 45º to the true wind. What I am saying is that the Xp makes 30º to the true wind. That's a huge difference, as it was to be expected. Those 45º degrees would be obtained not easily. It would be needed a lot of wind.
I am not confusing apparent and true wind, which is why I put the words in italics before - and I do actually understand that there's a fair way from this to 30º true Of course 90º implied 45º - but you are again wrong when you say “not easily”. As I said, I use 45/90 as my rule of thumb when tacking; I could push the boat higher but this is a good medium and easy for setting waypoints. It does not need “strong winds” to manage that. I have not mentioned sailing with the jib on inner stay – it obviously points higher with that. I can give you figures, I am not making them up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I never sailed an Ovni 395, but on the many thousands of miles I have made with my Bavaria 36 (long keel, performance rig and good sails) I have always outsailed Ovnis (even the 435) and similar boats and I have a pretty good idea of their comparative performance.
Precisely, you have not sailed it. When you say “even the 435” it shows that you have not experienced enough of these boats. The 435 is not as good a sailor as the 395 – and the 365 is probably even better for its size.
I would never try to say an Ovni is a match for Xp-38, but have tried to show that your comparison to a “jeep” is out of order. There certainly are “jeeps” out there, but they are in yet another league.

My very point, stated a few times now, is that Xp-38 is no Porshce.

We could – but should not – exchange figures and estimates forever, but it is our usage and intentions that differ and cause these differences. I am consistently referring only to performance in relation to purpose.
See my next post for a personal “statement.”

I am of course glad you like the Ovni And I like Xp-38
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #546  
Old 01-14-2011
OsmundL's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Norway (sometimes)
Posts: 361
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 6
OsmundL is on a distinguished road
This is me

I have a personal relationship with boats. There is no reason why anyone else should agree with this, I just put it out so you know where I come from:

I am a bit of a purist. If I had a Porsche, it would hurt to attach a hanger and carry garden refuse to the tip with it. It would feel like a violation of purpose.

In the same way, if I had a high performance yacht, I would feel pain when filling a hundred liters of water, more pain when loading a rubber dinghy on deck, and I’d have diarrhea loading it down with diving equipment and a pushbike for the trips ashore. Every little bit that compromises its performance would give me bad vibes. At other times, I would be annoyed at all the gear I have to unload to be competitive in a regatta. If I had a racing boat it would be on the leading edge, and I’d keep it for that only.

This is why I say, and repeat, that for me there are racers (that I would spare the agony of carrying supplies) and there are cruisers. The middle road is not for me.

But that’s me. I can see lots of reasons why others choose differently.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #547  
Old 01-15-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,179
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by OsmundL View Post

You are telling me how fast my boat sails Sorry, but this is where you are wrong. I do not do “3 knots” in 7k upwind, I do between 5,4 and 6. ...
6K upwind with 7 k wind and better than 45º of true wind ...howww! You should race your boat, with the low rating it has it is going to win everything on compensated time

You are right, the difference for the Xp 38 is very small, he only can make 6.2 at 45º. At a better angle than 45º it will make the same speed as your boat and its rating is muuuuch bigger. I wonder why nobody have notice the big racing potential of the OVNI.

Just for you to realize how your boat sails incredible well, a Jeanneau 409 with performance rig and deep draft bulbed keel will only make about 5.8K at 45º with 7K wind and the Jeanneau 409 is one of the fastest pure cruising sailboat around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OsmundL View Post

...I would never try to say an Ovni is a match for Xp-38, but have tried to show that your comparison to a “jeep” is out of order. There certainly are “jeeps” out there, but they are in yet another league.
....
We could – but should not – exchange figures and estimates forever, but it is our usage and intentions that differ and cause these differences. I am consistently referring only to performance in relation to purpose.

I have a personal relationship with boats. There is no reason why anyone else should agree with this, I just put it out so you know where I come from:

... if I had a high performance yacht, I would feel pain when filling a hundred liters of water, more pain when loading a rubber dinghy on deck, and I’d have diarrhea loading it down with diving equipment and a pushbike for the trips ashore. Every little bit that compromises its performance would give me bad vibes. At other times, I would be annoyed at all the gear I have to unload to be competitive in a regatta. If I had a racing boat it would be on the leading edge, and I’d keep it for that only.

This is why I say, and repeat, that for me there are racers (that I would spare the agony of carrying supplies) and there are cruisers. The middle road is not for me.
...
If the middle road between cruisers and racers are not for you, you should never consider the Xp38 because he is no racer he is a performance cruiser with a great cruiser interior, an interior that has a better quality that the one from the OVNI. You should be considering racing boats, like the Farr 40 or a Class 40. The Xp belongs to the X range of performance cruisers, for racers you should look at the Xr line. They have a good 41.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 01-15-2011 at 12:18 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #548  
Old 01-15-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 290
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 5
myocean is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by OsmundL View Post
To me, that’s just silly. Why go in-between? The differences are too marginal for my tastes.
I do understand that very well. On one side fun due to high tech and exciting speed are what I really like, on the other side, for long haul sailing, it might be necessary to live without but benefit from other features.
And - yes, compromises are boring. I prefer a consequent design. However I fear I need to accept more compromises than I really liked.

Anyway, let's change the subject.
Isn't this one a cool machine? Very much a racer...


"Ker 39"
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #549  
Old 01-15-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,179
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Atlantic 43

I like so much the concept of a go anywhere strong boat that I have taken a lot of work looking for one, I mean one that besides those attributes had also the one that is difficult to have together with the others: Speed

And I have found it, a Dutch boat designed by Dick Zall, The Atlantic 43. It is a more than 6 old year design, but one that was so advanced for its time that I will gladly have one if I could pay the price (more than 500 000€).

The Atlantic 43 is an Aluminum boat with variable draft and a hull that is based on the Open 60 design. Bulb down it has around 3.00M draft, Bulb up 1.3M. Of course it can not be beached as the OVNI, but with 1.3M Draft he can go everywhere and it has a much much bigger sail potential.

Just to give you an idea regarding the difference in stability and sail power, the Ovni has all the ballast inside the boat, near the gravity center and a Ballast/displacement of 36%. The Atlantic has a better Ballast/displacement ratio : 39% and has its ballast not inside the boat, but down, several meters
under the boat center of gravity. The difference in stability will be huge, as the capacity to carry sail upwind as also the safety reserve stability and the AVS.

























modellen_atlantic_43_title | Atlantic 43 | Atlantic Yachts

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 11:02 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #550  
Old 01-15-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,179
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Ker 39

Quote:
Originally Posted by myocean View Post
I...
Isn't this one a cool machine? Very much a racer...
"Ker 39"


Yes, beautiful machine. The K39 is a cruiser racer, but contrary to the Xp 38 it is much more of a racer than a cruiser.

Ker Design

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 11:03 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 12 (0 members and 12 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cruising sailboats for sale welch Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 10 04-25-2012 05:20 PM
THE Yacht Builder List T37Chef Boat Review and Purchase Forum 26 07-08-2011 05:51 AM
Noob wonderings and questions about sailing, life at sail and sailboats Vans General Discussion (sailing related) 49 06-20-2011 12:18 AM
A List of ALL sailboats made with layouts? Myblueheaven Boat Review and Purchase Forum 8 10-08-2010 11:32 AM
Failure to Navigate - interesting post on Panbo Blog & from the NewsReader Mass Bay Sailors 0 12-11-2006 06:15 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:59 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.