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  #5491  
Old 12-20-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaramaz View Post
Well, Paul, you say that the VK35 is an interesting, quoting the data



Which is probably is.

But then, I remember the data for the 20+ year old Dehler38 (no, not the new one):

LOA 38 ft (11,40 m)
Beam 3,78 m
Draft 2,05 m
Displacement 5500 kg
keel 49% (2800 kg)
Main 40.5 sqm
genua 1 41 sqm

There been some discussion in this thread what is to be considered "light", as "light" is something new, and very special. It is not. This old Dehler is not even minimalistic. (there are more examples from this period)
/Jaramaz
The Dehler 38 is a 1987 model and yes a very light one for its time. The VK 35 weights several hundreds of kilos less and can only be considered light for a 35ft aluminium boat. It is difficult to make small aluminium boats light. The weight in the aluminium building is not like in fiberglass proportional to size. You can make a 40ft or a 45ft aluminium boat proportionally lighter.

Talking about light boats in modern terms, like the Dehler 38 was light in its days, we would be talking about a JPK 38 (5000kgs) or about the Pogo 10.50 (3600kg) but as we saw here many times the announced weight is not the real sailboat weight but the weight the designer thought it was possible for that boat.

Considering that a modern Dehler 38 weights 7000kg that difference is hard to justify or understand since the new 38 Dehler is a faster boat.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-20-2013 at 02:12 PM.
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  #5492  
Old 12-20-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiasDePlaya View Post
The VK35 looks out of balance, the bow is very high and very low in the water aft.
Maybe you are right. Now that you said it I have to agree. Nevertheless it seems to sail very well in very light wind.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-20-2013 at 03:38 PM.
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  #5493  
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Sunfast 3600

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Originally Posted by robelz View Post
German YACHT magazine tested the SF3600 at 15-20kn: The had 7,1kn at 40° true, over 10 at 90°, 11,5 at 130° and 8,5 at 180...
That compares with what the French had measured:

15K trw downwind with spy asymmetric - 8.9K speed

15K trw 38º of trw - 7.2K

The speed downwind seems to be a bit worse but the French sailed with 15K ahd the Germans with 15/20K . The boat starts to plan with about 14K of wind so those extra 5K of wind seems to be all that is needed for the boat to enter double digit speeds.

Regarding the boat design criteria a nice explanation by Erik Stromberg one of the main man from Jeanneau in what regards sail design and product specifications. Erik is also a good sailor and the last time I saw him he was linked to Jeanneau America. For what I understand there are good chances that Jeanneau decides to commercialize the SF 3600 in the USA.



Also another movie showing around the SF 3600:



and just some movies with the SF3200. The SF3600 will not only be faster but by what Erik says a better boat in crewed racing:







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  #5494  
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Re: Sunfast 3600

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
That compares with what the French had measured:

15K trw downwind with spy asymmetric - 8.9K speed

15K trw 38º of trw - 7.2K

The speed downwind seems to be a bit worse but the French sailed with 15K ahd the Germans with 15/20K .
Did the explain what they mean by "downwind"? It would fit to the 180°-data from YACHT magazine.

Wave height was about half a metre...
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Seascape 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiasDePlaya View Post
Maybe the Seascape 27 is the Pogo's little brother
I don't know how it would compare with the Pogo 30. It would be fun a comparative test sail

Seascape, as the name indicates means fun at sea and fun they have even if the boat seems very fast in real time but not so fast on compensated. Who cares about compensated the fun is beating on the water a lot of bigger boats and that is what the Seascape is all about





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  #5496  
Old 12-20-2013
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Re: A35/Dehler 32 pricing

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Not fair to compare the A35 with the cruising Dehler 38. Even the more cruising version of the A35 has similar building specs with the Dehler 38R, not with the less expensive version. The Dehler 38R is hugely more expensive than the cruising Dehler.

Not saying that the cruising Dehler is not an overall better cruising boat than the A35, probably it is but in what regards racing it is miles apart.

Regards

Paulo
If you are looking for a boat for cruising I think it is very fair to compare the A35 to the Dehler 38, for instance. And in general I find the A35 very expensive.

Anders
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Re: A35/Dehler 32 pricing

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Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
If you are looking for a boat for cruising I think it is very fair to compare the A35 to the Dehler 38, for instance. And in general I find the A35 very expensive.

Anders
Top performance boats are very expensive. Try to see hoe much it costs a top Dehler 38 and you will be surprised.
Sure we can compare in what regards cruising, but the one that is interested in those boats and the one I was talking to is Pelicano and he wants a boat more for racing than for cruising. I agree that for cruising a Dehler 38 makes more sense in what regards price/performance/cruising comfort. In what regards that I think the real competitor is the Salona 38 that offers about the same for less.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-20-2013 at 06:32 PM.
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  #5498  
Old 12-20-2013
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Re: A35/Dehler 32 pricing

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Top performance boats are very expensive. Try to see hoe much it costs a top Dehler 38 and you will be surprised.
Sure we can compare in what regards cruising, but the one that is interested in those boats and the one I was talking to is Pelicano and he wants a boat more for racing than for cruising. I agree that for cruising a Dehler 38 makes more sense in what regards price/performance/cruising comfort. In what regards I think the real competitor is the Salona 38 that offers about the same for less.

Regards

Paulo
Quite so. I don't know anything about cruising, only about racing. So even if I am buying a boat that I will cruise sometimes (when I learn how), I still plan to be racing a good deal of the time. And I'm also in a minimalist frame of mind, which means I'm willing to dispense with certain comforts / conveniences in return for performance. That's one reason I'm so favorably inclined toward the Pogo 30, though it is not an inexpensive boat. But we've talked about this before, and the money you spend on a Pogo is money spent on saving weight, and the strength / durability of the hull and appendages for offshore use.

A couple of comments on some of the preceding posts:

1. The Sunfast 3200 racing on SF Bay is not particularly well-sailed. I'm thinking they are sailing PHRF in the YRA Summer Series, which is not very competitive compared to the IRC and One Design regattas in that location. In the video you'll see nobody is hiking very hard, people spending too long on the low side, and a screwed up spinnaker set, etc. They're having fun, of course, but it would be more interesting to see that boat racing in IRC against well-sailed performance cruisers.

2. I've been in love with the Seascape 27 since it was first proposed and the Sam Manuard design revealed. And clearly they have delivered exactly what they promised: a fast, fun, versatile little offshore racer, that can embarass bigger boats head-to-head, even if its rating is a bit painful. In the one video of the Croatia offshore race, the 4 Seascape 27's are not "official" entries, as they didn't meet the minimum length requirement. But they were allowed to race anyway. On the Seascape Facebook page we were speculating that the race organizers were attempting to protect the feelings of big boat owners who spent too much money to be crushed by a little 27ft trailerable swing keeler. Even though I have been agonizing over RMs, Djangos, A35s, A31s, Pogo 30s (and Pogo 3s), the more I'm thinking about return on investment, the better the Seascape 27 looks. True, it is not Class A certified, but you could certainly bring it into compliance with some additional investment of money - e.g., make it unsinkable, for example. Hoping to get a chance to see one once the two boats coming to the U.S. arrive (assuming I make it to Florida for the Laser mid-winter events).

By my estimations, a well-equipped Seascape 27 would set me back about $115K / €85.000 (or perhaps 10% more than that, factoring in shipping and import duties, etc.). I'll try to find out from one of the U.S. owners with whom I've been communicating.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program: "Interesting Boats".
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