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  #5511  
Old 12-23-2013
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Re: Another one on foils: Nacra F20

It's interesting to contrast this video from the 2013 Jabuka Race with the one Paulo posted earlier, featuring the Seascape 27's in the same race. Here you have a Czech Dufour 34 ("Paula") reefing all the way down to bare poles at one point, versus the footage we saw of the Seascapes where we didn't see that at all. Perhaps they left it off their video, but I suspect if they encountered such rough conditions they would have wanted to show it.

I'm wondering if maybe the Dufour 34 didn't have more than 2 reef points on the main or something? And where was the storm trysail? Maybe they just didn't want to bother and went to bare poles to keep things comfortable - i.e., not hard core racers.

And, indeed, when you look at the results it tells the true story, I think, and speaks even more highly of the offshore capabilities of the Seascape 27. A look at the final results out of 61 boats (with 3 DNF):

Seascape 27's - 15, 16, 25, 26
Dufour 34 - 53

By the way, the two Seascapes that were 15 and 16 finished 27 seconds apart and only 45 minutes behind the overall winner, an Akilaria RC2!

Amazing boats.

EDIT: Paulo pointed out in a later post that the video of the Bora is not from the Jabuka Race itself, but from the delivery of the Dufour 34 "Paula", when the crew encountered windspeeds of 50+ knots. So of course they were not in racing mode and going with bare poles was a very prudent decision. No need to break something or risk crew injury on a delivery (or even racing, for that matter). - MrP
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Last edited by MrPelicano; 12-23-2013 at 03:40 PM.
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  #5512  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
Bora... Always good for some stress...
My favorite tough weather sailing video, even if older...
Rough Weather Sailing - BT Global Challenge 2000 - YouTube
I've never been offshore in conditions this rough, but I have raced in conditions with winds > 40 knots and big waves at night. We had the on-watch crew on the rail of a J/120, in addition to one person at the helm and one trimming main when we took a wave that swept everyone off the rail and bent a lifeline stanchion. At that point we sent everyone below except the driver (me), the main trimmer, and the bowman (who periodically went to the low side to vomit).

At dawn we finally gave up and sought refuge in the closest harbor we could fetch, where we found a number of boats that wisely bailed out much earlier than we did. Probably my scariest experience racing.

Have only run under bare poles once before, in a J/105 in 30-40 knots and 10-12 foot seas off California's Pt. Concepcion. In that case, we had torn our roller-furling jib and only had two reef points on the main (which weren't rigged because we stupidly imagined we wouldn't need them). Even under bare poles we were making about 6 knots VMG downwind (in the right direction at least), which is consistent with what it looked like the Dufour 34 "Paula" was doing in the earlier video, under bare poles. When the breeze dropped into the low 20's we put up the .75 oz A-2 and full main and continued racing. One other J/105 was dismasted that evening nearby, but motored safely to port.

I don't enjoy rough weather but I'm not nearly as afraid as I was the first few times. If you trust your boat it makes a huge difference, and J Boats are built pretty tough.
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  #5513  
Old 12-23-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

I never sailed in conditions like this... Force 8 winds for say 12ish hours was the maximum i ever experienced...
But there was a pretty scary, even if very brief, moment i will never forget and which conditioned me in some ways...
After a front went through, we left the marina because we had a schedule to keep... The wind has almost completely seized and running under motor we drove in a tight angle to the waves built by the force 9-10 winds from previously...
A small breaker put our bow off the waves, i tried to correct and looked to the side, when i just saw a wall of water with a foaming crest rising well above the first spreaders running towards us...
This freak wave just picked up the boat, threw it on its side and dropped us after it had washed over us...
And that bloody wave came out of nowhere only 4-5 nm away from the coast...
This taught me one thing: never sail on a multihull!
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  #5514  
Old 12-23-2013
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Bora

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
It's interesting to contrast this video from the 2013 Jabuka Race with the one Paulo posted earlier, featuring the Seascape 27's in the same race. Here you have a Czech Dufour 34 ("Paula") reefing all the way down to bare poles at one point, versus the footage we saw of the Seascapes where we didn't see that at all. Perhaps they left it off their video, but I suspect if they encountered such rough conditions they would have wanted to show it.

I'm wondering if maybe the Dufour 34 didn't have more than 2 reef points on the main or something? And where was the storm trysail? Maybe they just didn't want to bother and went to bare poles to keep things comfortable - i.e., not hard core racers.

And, indeed, when you look at the results it tells the true story, I think, and speaks even more highly of the offshore capabilities of the Seascape 27. A look at the final results out of 61 boats (with 3 DNF):

Seascape 27's - 15, 16, 25, 26
Dufour 34 - 53

By the way, the two Seascapes that were 15 and 16 finished 27 seconds apart and only 45 minutes behind the overall winner, an Akilaria RC2!

Amazing boats.
That video with a Bora was not on the day the race took place. On the race it was windy but not that much. They say:

Boat tranfer from Portorož to Vodice for Jabuka Race 2013. Heavy weather conditions: strong "bora" wind reaching strength of 50 kts. In Croatia, cyclone was called Teodor and reached maximum of 90 kts in Kvarner Gulf.




Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-23-2013 at 02:22 PM.
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  #5515  
Old 12-23-2013
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Re: 15 years in hull design

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Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
Been there, done that. Actually it was cat 1 hurricane during Transat 2002. Real fun starts at night and 80kn winds Hurricane Gustav (2002) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Paul, you are a mystery man and also a man of few words.

What transat are you talking about?

I am sure we all would like to hear the story...because 80k at sea gives a good story, I am sure.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-23-2013 at 02:29 PM.
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  #5516  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
I never sailed in conditions like this... Force 8 winds for say 12ish hours was the maximum i ever experienced...
But there was a pretty scary, even if very brief, moment i will never forget and which conditioned me in some ways...
After a front went through, we left the marina because we had a schedule to keep... The wind has almost completely seized and running under motor we drove in a tight angle to the waves built by the force 9-10 winds from previously...
A small breaker put our bow off the waves, i tried to correct and looked to the side, when i just saw a wall of water with a foaming crest rising well above the first spreaders running towards us...
This freak wave just picked up the boat, threw it on its side and dropped us after it had washed over us...
And that bloody wave came out of nowhere only 4-5 nm away from the coast...
This taught me one thing: never sail on a multihull!
Actually multihulls can take much bigger breaking waves than similarly sized monohulls without capsizing. they have a much bigger stability and also a much better dynamic stability. The problem with multihulls is freak gusts, not freak waves unless they come also with freak winds

Regards

Paulo
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  #5517  
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Re: Bora

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
That video with a Bora was not on the day the race took place. On the race it was windy but not that much. They say:

Boat tranfer from Portorož to Vodice for Jabuka Race 2013. Heavy weather conditions: strong "bora" wind reaching strength of 50 kts. In Croatia, cyclone was called Teodor and reached maximum of 90 kts in Kvarner Gulf.


Regards

Paulo
Windspeed of 50+ knots is a good reason to be under bare poles, if you're doing a delivery. No argument from me.

But I take it the second video is from the Jabuka Race itself? But not the same boat I believe (doesn't look like a Dufour 34 - an older boat perhaps?). Here we see them go with the storm trysail and what looks like a #4 headsail. Some accounts I read had the windspeed as high as 30 knots, during parts of the race. But that seems to me to call for a double reefed mainsail and #4 headsail, although admittedly they were sailing without a full crew.

From the several videos I've seen, I think the key to doing well in this race was having the correct sail combinations available to suit the changing conditions. In this video, when the boats were 2-sail reaching, I suspect the Seascapes and the Akilaria were able to go with a Code 0 or reaching gennaker and staysail, not simply a #2 or #3 jib. That makes a huge difference, particularly if you've got a really stiff boat.

Also suspect that many of the boats are charters - e.g., the Elan 350 class - or casual racers, not really hardcore. Some of the top finishers had Cat 3 professionals on board (the overall winner "Ola" had an IMS European Champion tactician aboard, for example). I guess what I'm saying is that it just doesn't look like the boats in these videos are being sailed hard - except the top 2 Seascapes.

Which makes you wonder: Is the owner of a First 45 feeling good about himself when he has just been crushed by a €100K 27-foot, swing keel trailer sailor? Hey, being spanked by an Akilaria RC2 not a problem - similar price point and it's a high-powered race boat. Perhaps that First 45 owner is happy because everyone on aboard was comfortable and got a hot shower, comfy berth, and microwave popcorn on watch. The Seascape guys got some candy bars and maybe hot coffee.
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Old 12-23-2013
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Jabuka regatta

Yes you are right. I have posted the movies because they are nice but this is a 3rd rate race.

That's why I didn't bother to see the boat relative times. It only makes sense on top races were you know that there are many well sailed boats. Here, on this type of Croatia races, many guys just charter boats to race and have fun, they are just a bunch of friends not a properly trained crew and they don't know that particular boat, even if they have sailed one similar.

It seems to me that it is blowing more than 30K by the First 45 sail configuration. Maybe 35/40K?

Next one where it will make sense to look at comparative performances is the Sydney Hobart where for several years the First 40 have proved consistently faster than the class40. Lots of upwind sailing in big seas are just not the ideal playground for a class40, but it is perfect for a relatively heavy and narrower boat like the First.

Last year the winner on compensated and by far the best of the production smaller boats was a Sydney 43 that made a hell of the race. I like a lot that boat and I am very curious about the 37ft. I believe that if the Sydney 43 sell in Europe and I believe it will sell, they produce the 37.

Regards

Paulo
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  #5519  
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Re: Jabuka regatta

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Yes you are right. I have posted the movies because they are nice but this is a 3rd rate race.

That's why I didn't bother to see the boat relative times. It only makes sense on top races were you know that there are many well sailed boats. Here, on this type of Croatia races, many guys just charter boats to race and have fun, they are just a bunch of friends not a properly trained crew and they don't know that particular boat, even if they have sailed one similar.

It seems to me that it is blowing more than 30K by the First 45 sail configuration. Maybe 35/40K?

Next one where it will make sense to look at comparative performances is the Sydney Hobart where for several years the First 40 have proved consistently faster than the class40. Lots of upwind sailing in big seas are just not the ideal playground for a class40, but it is perfect for a relatively heavy and narrower boat like the First.

Last year the winner on compensated and by far the best of the production smaller boats was a Sydney 43 that made a hell of the race. I like a lot that boat and I am very curious about the 37ft. I believe that if the Sydney 43 sell in Europe and I believe it will sell, they produce the 37.

Regards

Paulo
Thanks for confirming what I suspected about the Jabuka Race. It was pretty obvious from the videos but you can't always tell.

As for the Sydney 43, it is an amazing looking boat, as I've come to expect from Jason Ker, and obviously a potent offshore weapon in the right hands. The Sydney-Hobart should be interesting this year, particularly for line honors. Obviously Wild Oats will be a favorite, but depending on the conditions the VO70 "Black Jack" could very well be a spoiler, as could the new Carkeek Mini-Maxi "Ichi Ban". "Black Jack" was only 5m 49s behind "Wild Oats" and 3m 25s behind "Perpetual Loyal" in the SOLAS Big Boat raace a couple weekends ago, so it's not out of the realm of possibility to take line honors.

Wish there was better video coverage of the Sydney-Hobart, along the lines of the Fastnet Race. Seems like it would be relatively easy to do, considering a good deal of the race is near offshore, within easy reach of planes and helicopters. Oh well... it's only yacht racing, after all, not something deserving of media coverage, like golf or beach volleyball.
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  #5520  
Old 12-23-2013
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2013 SOLAS Big Boat Challenge

and since we are talking about the Sydney-Hobart have a look at the "warm up" the 2013 SOLAS Big Boat Challenge:

SOLAS Big Boat Challenge 2013 from Greg Wilkins on Vimeo.





Lots of interesting boats this year, the "old" Vor 70 Grupama now renamed "Giacomo", Telefonica Vor70 now renamed Black Jack a new Ichi Ban, a brand new Carkeek 60 and the old Rambler now renamed "LOYAL". I believe that if someone is able to beat Wild Oats it will be this one. I don't believe Wild Thing can do it. And among the fast boat we will have the little Varuna a Ker 51 and the not so little Beau Geste a Botin 80fter.

At this first confrontation wild oats won but not for much:

1-WILD OATS XI .......01:10 :10
2-PERPETUAL LOYAL...01:12:34
3-BLACK JACK............01:15:59
4-WILD THING...........01:17:29
5-GIACOMO ..............01:23:54
6-ICHI BAN...............01:26:05

The first 6 were really close. It seems that this year the Hobart is going to be very interesting!!!!!

Among the small boats several A40 and several First 40. I bet that on the particular conditions of the Hobarth the best First will beat the best A40. A pity that the guys that used to race with a 40class racer will not be there this year, as well as none other. I guess they know this is not the type of race that suits them

The Yachts - Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race 2013

Two days for the start.
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Last edited by PCP; 12-23-2013 at 08:24 PM.
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