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  #5521  
Old 12-23-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Look this! A MOD 70 in a Melges 24 size.

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  #5522  
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15 years in hull design

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
Bora... Always good for some stress...
My favorite tough weather sailing video, even if older...
Rough Weather Sailing - BT Global Challenge 2000 - YouTube
Yes, not weather for amateurs. I love those guys sitting on a rail of a 40 000kg boat on those conditions. We can also see the differences in what regards boat design in 15 years and they are quite impressive between the boats from the Challenge and Clipper boats):

From a narrow 72ft boat with weight of 38 000kg ,a beam of 5.5m, a draft of 3.0m and a B/D ratio of of 27% we passed to a 75.6ft boat with less overhangs, more beam but mostly a larger transom, lighter, the same draft and with a superior stability: LOA 75’6’’, weight 31 190kg, beam 5.65m, B/D ratio of 39%. The draft is the same but the newer boat has a more efficient keel that allows for a lower keel CG (independently of the ballast, that is also bigger) and that translates in a bigger RM provided by the more modern keel.

This will make not only for a faster boat but also for a more seaworthy one with more stability and much less prone to pitch the frightening way the older boat does on bad weather, like you can see on the video.

The pitch movement will be much smaller due to the less overhang and superior buoyancy at the bow, at the transom and for a much more centered weight on the boat due mainly to the bigger ballast ratio and different building materials (steel versus GRP).

Many times sailors associate a superior seaworthiness regarding older hull shapes that they call " less extreme" but that is not generically true.

That big pitch movement is responsible for much of the hardship that we see on the video: When the boat has the bow fully buried at the water it is at the mercy of the next wave that just sweep the deck and cockpit.

A visual comparison between the two boats that it is a good reference in what regards hull evolution on the last 15 years, also look at the keel and rudders:








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Last edited by PCP; 12-23-2013 at 11:38 AM.
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  #5523  
Old 12-23-2013
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Diam 24

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiasDePlaya View Post
Look this! A MOD 70 in a Melges 24 size.
Here with more wind:



Very impressive. With 6/10K the boat is doing what? 12/13K speed?

Very interesting concept, well coming from VPLP it would not to be expected less.

Le concept diam 24 one design : naviguer autrement | diam24onedesign
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Last edited by PCP; 12-23-2013 at 11:55 AM.
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  #5524  
Old 12-23-2013
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Re: Another one on foils: Nacra F20

It's interesting to contrast this video from the 2013 Jabuka Race with the one Paulo posted earlier, featuring the Seascape 27's in the same race. Here you have a Czech Dufour 34 ("Paula") reefing all the way down to bare poles at one point, versus the footage we saw of the Seascapes where we didn't see that at all. Perhaps they left it off their video, but I suspect if they encountered such rough conditions they would have wanted to show it.

I'm wondering if maybe the Dufour 34 didn't have more than 2 reef points on the main or something? And where was the storm trysail? Maybe they just didn't want to bother and went to bare poles to keep things comfortable - i.e., not hard core racers.

And, indeed, when you look at the results it tells the true story, I think, and speaks even more highly of the offshore capabilities of the Seascape 27. A look at the final results out of 61 boats (with 3 DNF):

Seascape 27's - 15, 16, 25, 26
Dufour 34 - 53

By the way, the two Seascapes that were 15 and 16 finished 27 seconds apart and only 45 minutes behind the overall winner, an Akilaria RC2!

Amazing boats.

EDIT: Paulo pointed out in a later post that the video of the Bora is not from the Jabuka Race itself, but from the delivery of the Dufour 34 "Paula", when the crew encountered windspeeds of 50+ knots. So of course they were not in racing mode and going with bare poles was a very prudent decision. No need to break something or risk crew injury on a delivery (or even racing, for that matter). - MrP
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Last edited by MrPelicano; 12-23-2013 at 04:40 PM.
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  #5525  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
Bora... Always good for some stress...
My favorite tough weather sailing video, even if older...
Rough Weather Sailing - BT Global Challenge 2000 - YouTube
I've never been offshore in conditions this rough, but I have raced in conditions with winds > 40 knots and big waves at night. We had the on-watch crew on the rail of a J/120, in addition to one person at the helm and one trimming main when we took a wave that swept everyone off the rail and bent a lifeline stanchion. At that point we sent everyone below except the driver (me), the main trimmer, and the bowman (who periodically went to the low side to vomit).

At dawn we finally gave up and sought refuge in the closest harbor we could fetch, where we found a number of boats that wisely bailed out much earlier than we did. Probably my scariest experience racing.

Have only run under bare poles once before, in a J/105 in 30-40 knots and 10-12 foot seas off California's Pt. Concepcion. In that case, we had torn our roller-furling jib and only had two reef points on the main (which weren't rigged because we stupidly imagined we wouldn't need them). Even under bare poles we were making about 6 knots VMG downwind (in the right direction at least), which is consistent with what it looked like the Dufour 34 "Paula" was doing in the earlier video, under bare poles. When the breeze dropped into the low 20's we put up the .75 oz A-2 and full main and continued racing. One other J/105 was dismasted that evening nearby, but motored safely to port.

I don't enjoy rough weather but I'm not nearly as afraid as I was the first few times. If you trust your boat it makes a huge difference, and J Boats are built pretty tough.
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  #5526  
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Re: 15 years in hull design

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Yes, not weather for amateurs. I love those guys sitting on a rail of a 40 000kg boat on those conditions.
Been there, done that. Actually it was cat 1 hurricane during Transat 2002. Real fun starts at night and 80kn winds
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  #5527  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

I never sailed in conditions like this... Force 8 winds for say 12ish hours was the maximum i ever experienced...
But there was a pretty scary, even if very brief, moment i will never forget and which conditioned me in some ways...
After a front went through, we left the marina because we had a schedule to keep... The wind has almost completely seized and running under motor we drove in a tight angle to the waves built by the force 9-10 winds from previously...
A small breaker put our bow off the waves, i tried to correct and looked to the side, when i just saw a wall of water with a foaming crest rising well above the first spreaders running towards us...
This freak wave just picked up the boat, threw it on its side and dropped us after it had washed over us...
And that bloody wave came out of nowhere only 4-5 nm away from the coast...
This taught me one thing: never sail on a multihull!
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  #5528  
Old 12-23-2013
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Bora

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
It's interesting to contrast this video from the 2013 Jabuka Race with the one Paulo posted earlier, featuring the Seascape 27's in the same race. Here you have a Czech Dufour 34 ("Paula") reefing all the way down to bare poles at one point, versus the footage we saw of the Seascapes where we didn't see that at all. Perhaps they left it off their video, but I suspect if they encountered such rough conditions they would have wanted to show it.

I'm wondering if maybe the Dufour 34 didn't have more than 2 reef points on the main or something? And where was the storm trysail? Maybe they just didn't want to bother and went to bare poles to keep things comfortable - i.e., not hard core racers.

And, indeed, when you look at the results it tells the true story, I think, and speaks even more highly of the offshore capabilities of the Seascape 27. A look at the final results out of 61 boats (with 3 DNF):

Seascape 27's - 15, 16, 25, 26
Dufour 34 - 53

By the way, the two Seascapes that were 15 and 16 finished 27 seconds apart and only 45 minutes behind the overall winner, an Akilaria RC2!

Amazing boats.
That video with a Bora was not on the day the race took place. On the race it was windy but not that much. They say:

Boat tranfer from Portorož to Vodice for Jabuka Race 2013. Heavy weather conditions: strong "bora" wind reaching strength of 50 kts. In Croatia, cyclone was called Teodor and reached maximum of 90 kts in Kvarner Gulf.




Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-23-2013 at 03:22 PM.
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  #5529  
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Re: 15 years in hull design

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Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
Been there, done that. Actually it was cat 1 hurricane during Transat 2002. Real fun starts at night and 80kn winds Hurricane Gustav (2002) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Paul, you are a mystery man and also a man of few words.

What transat are you talking about?

I am sure we all would like to hear the story...because 80k at sea gives a good story, I am sure.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 12-23-2013 at 03:29 PM.
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  #5530  
Old 12-23-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
I never sailed in conditions like this... Force 8 winds for say 12ish hours was the maximum i ever experienced...
But there was a pretty scary, even if very brief, moment i will never forget and which conditioned me in some ways...
After a front went through, we left the marina because we had a schedule to keep... The wind has almost completely seized and running under motor we drove in a tight angle to the waves built by the force 9-10 winds from previously...
A small breaker put our bow off the waves, i tried to correct and looked to the side, when i just saw a wall of water with a foaming crest rising well above the first spreaders running towards us...
This freak wave just picked up the boat, threw it on its side and dropped us after it had washed over us...
And that bloody wave came out of nowhere only 4-5 nm away from the coast...
This taught me one thing: never sail on a multihull!
Actually multihulls can take much bigger breaking waves than similarly sized monohulls without capsizing. they have a much bigger stability and also a much better dynamic stability. The problem with multihulls is freak gusts, not freak waves unless they come also with freak winds

Regards

Paulo
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