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post #5531 of 6763 Old 12-25-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Pelicano - stamm had on his boat the towing generators mounted on vertical rails while a lot of others had them on a single point fixture, so they could swing them up or down as they need them... Due to collisions and probably other problems as well stamm lost both, which was a major part of his troubles...
The second big issue was his main winch in the center of the cockpit at the bulkhead... He tried to repair it two times i think, but if one knows how complex those things are. I cannot think of any way to fix one of them myself, let alone at sea...
And then one thing let to the other... Without main winch, no alternative power (which ate up his fuel supplies) he was forced to sail without autopilot for 5 days only to reach cape hoorn... Where he refilled and finally dropped out.

But you are right - i cannot await the next edition!
Btw: i do think that gabbart is a robot...
Just kidding - le cleach showed less of emotions, at least on his live footages...
I followed the last edition all the way through and there were some remarkable feats performed...
JP dick bringing his boat home without keel not the least of them...
Do you know the video footage from thompson repairing his broken tie bar? And he had to do it twice...
I just wished that sanso and his acciona would have had a finish, because i simply favor the idea of sailing around the world without a drop of fossil energy...

Last edited by capt vimes; 12-25-2013 at 06:32 PM.
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post #5532 of 6763 Old 12-25-2013 Thread Starter
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
...
But on the other hand like to think its unlikely we would find ourselves in similar circumstances and believe its unlikely our boat would break up.
Probably not since your boat will not take all the loads these boats have to sustain. These carbon boats are hugely stronger than your boat but your boat will never took the pounding and sustain the stress related with going well over 20K on huge seas, not for some thousands of miles but for hundreds of thousands on miles.

Even so and with all those miles and huge stress taken by these hulls this is a very rare occurrence and I don't recall any other case with an Open 60 that are probably the strongest and safest sailboats around.

There are many much older Open 60 still racing or still around (some more than 3 times older) that have been proving pretty much indestructible.

(Edited for correcting factual information)

Regards

Paulo


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post #5533 of 6763 Old 12-25-2013 Thread Starter
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Sydney-Hobart

Just to remember that the race will start in 10 minutes.

You can follow here:

Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race 2013

and just as an appetizer, a movie regarding last year's edition:



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post #5534 of 6763 Old 12-25-2013 Thread Starter
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Sydney-Hobart

Live Start here:

Yahoo!7 Sports Live - Yahoo!7 Sport

Edit: Great start. My take on the race: Two possible winners: Wild Oats, that is leading or Loyal, that is second. Very different boats and very interesting to see how those two concepts work on the Hobart. On most of the races I believe that Loyal (ex Rambler) would be faster since it is faster downwind but on this particular race upwind potential is what counts most so it should be a close call. Loyal has more power but Wild Oats has more finesse so it will depend much on the racing conditions and wind.

Wild Oats is a much narrower boat (about 2.00m) compared with Loyal that is a more recent design even if Wild Oats has been continuing modified in what regards keel, rudders and now DSS.. Interesting stuff and one of the most interesting races of the last years.


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Last edited by PCP; 12-25-2013 at 09:36 PM.
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post #5535 of 6763 Old 12-26-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Probably not since your boat will not take all the loads these boats have to sustain. These carbon boats are hugely stronger than your boat but your boat will never took the pounding and sustain the stress related with going well over 20K on huge seas, not for some thousands of miles but for hundreds of thousands on miles.

Even so and with all those miles and huge stress taken by these hulls this is a very rare occurrence and I don't recall any other case with an Open 60 that are probably the strongest and safest sailboats around.

I believe that this accident has to do with this one being a boat that was salvaged after a brutal collision with rocks, with the boat being washed ashore later (2008).

Many thought that the boat was irrecoverable and maybe they were right and that recovery should not have been attempted even if the boat had made after that several racing circumnavigations and many transats. It is well possible that the stress suffered by the hull on that shipwreck and the consequent weakening of the structure prove to be the ultimate cause of this accident. There are many much older Open 60 still racing or still around (some more than 3 times older) that have been proving pretty much indestructible.

Regards

Paulo
Paulo- those two boats are not identical... Stamm received a brand new one in 2011 which obviously broke apart now...
Skipper - Vendée Globe 2012-2013
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post #5536 of 6763 Old 12-26-2013 Thread Starter
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
Paulo- those two boats are not identical... Stamm received a brand new one in 2011 which obviously broke apart now...
Skipper - Vendée Globe 2012-2013
Yes, you are right. I will correct the post (thanks). Pelicano seems right then. Something wrong with that boat design/built. Other older Open 60 are still around in one piece after having done much more racing/circumnavigations than this boat.

Regards

Paulo


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post #5537 of 6763 Old 12-26-2013 Thread Starter
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Sydney-Hobart

It seems that the glory days of Wild Oats have come to an end and that this year the boat will be beaten even by smaller but more modern boats.

Wild Oats is a 2005 Rieche & Pugh design and 9 years are already a lot in what regards yacht and hull design even if the boat was continually updated in what regards keel, ruder and foils. I have said that it seemed to me that the 2008 JK Loyal (ex-Rambler) would be a faster boat on most conditions and it seems that he will find ahead even more favorable conditions then what he had find till know (strong downwind winds).

On the last editions Wild Oats had not the competition of state of the art designs, at least in what regards big yachts and that has changed this year.

There are racing two last generation VOR 70 (ex-Telefonica and ex-Groupama) and this two, even if 30ft smaller seems to be able to keep up with the bigger boat while Loyal is going away.

This is also a competition between two types of hull, one, the one from Wild Oats, much more narrow, less powerful, with less drag and the more common modern type, beamier with more drag but also more powerful.

This is the type of a race where the first type has more chances of beating the second one that is an overall more versatile design. I believe that for doing that it would need or light winds or upwind sailing with big seas and that on all other conditions the more moderated design would have a clear advantage.

It will be very interesting to follow the evolution of this race, not only in what regards the race itself but regarding the battle between this two kinds of different sailing concepts.

A look at the two very different boats:









Wild Oats XI...............................................P erpetual Loyal (ex-Rambler 100)

Maxi sloop 100’............................................Ma xi sloop 30m
NA : Reichel-Pugh........................................NA : Juan Kouyoumdjian

Built by McConaghy, Sydney 2005...................Built by Cookson Boat, Auckland 2008
Hull Lenght : 30,48 m....................................Hull Lenght : 30.00 m
LOA : 33,83 m.............................................LOA : 33,59 m
LWL : 29,70 m.............................................LWL : 29,99 m

Beam : 5,40 m.............................................Beam : 7.00 m
Draft : 5,50 m.............................................Draf t : 5,70 m

Mast height : 44,10 m..................................Mast height : 46,50 m

upwind sails: 610 m2....................................upwind sails: 630 m2
downwind sails : 1 262 m2............................downwind sails : 1 340 m2
Displacement : 32 t.....................................Displacement : 30.6 t
Ballast : 14 t..............................................Bal last : 8 t

Tracker - Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race 2013


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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by robelz View Post
Has it? I mean it was never a dominator but always close to the lead... And Stamm to me doesn't seem to be one of the best sailors in the world...

Meanwhile Riechers gave his 6yo Farr designed Open 60 to VPLP and they redesigned the whole front and gave it much more volume: Barcelona World Race: Jörg Riechers über den Umbau des neuen 60ers ?Mare? | SegelReporter

Even if you don't understand German you will understand the pictures...
And you can see why here:



This is a VPLP 2007 design and we can see that the boat on those conditions is pretty much burring the bow on the water while surfing big waves and that's no good and puts a huge load on the boat structure. I guess they know quite well what they are doing.

Regards

Paulo
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post #5539 of 6763 Old 12-26-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
And you can see why here:

This is a VPLP 2007 design and we can see that the boat on those conditions is pretty much burring the bow on the water while surfing big waves and that's no good and puts a huge load on the boat structure. I guess they know quite well what they are doing.

Regards

Paulo
This, again, vindicates David Raison's scow design, as we have also seen in videos of 747 sailing in similar conditions. Keeping the bow out of the backs of waves in surfing/planing conditions is really fast and reduces stress on the rig and on the pilots.

We have seen a move toward more fullness in the bows on the last generation Volvo 70s and on the VPLP boats that dominated the last Vendée - Macif and Banque Populaire. Of course, the changes have been more evolutionary than what Raison did, primarily because the VO70s and IMOCA 60s have to be optimized for more varied conditions - the Mini 6.50 design brief can allow for less variation in conditions.

Even so, I think this last MT demonstrated that the scow concept is not necessarily slow upwind - indeed, only in the lightest breeze does the additional drag start to play a factor and slows the design relative to more traditional designs, with narrower bows and finer entries.

So I believe we need to get used to this design trend - it may not have the aesthetic elegance of traditional hull shapes (though I find the scow to be quite handsome in its own way), but it is undeniably fast for offshore ocean racing. From what little we've seen of the Pogo 30, it appears to incorporate much more fullness in the bow section than the Pogo 2 or the Nacira design (which was so potent this year).
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We deal in lead, friend.
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
Pelicano - stamm had on his boat the towing generators mounted on vertical rails while a lot of others had them on a single point fixture, so they could swing them up or down as they need them... Due to collisions and probably other problems as well stamm lost both, which was a major part of his troubles...
The second big issue was his main winch in the center of the cockpit at the bulkhead... He tried to repair it two times i think, but if one knows how complex those things are. I cannot think of any way to fix one of them myself, let alone at sea...
And then one thing let to the other... Without main winch, no alternative power (which ate up his fuel supplies) he was forced to sail without autopilot for 5 days only to reach cape hoorn... Where he refilled and finally dropped out.

But you are right - i cannot await the next edition!
Btw: i do think that gabbart is a robot...
Just kidding - le cleach showed less of emotions, at least on his live footages...
I followed the last edition all the way through and there were some remarkable feats performed...
JP dick bringing his boat home without keel not the least of them...
Do you know the video footage from thompson repairing his broken tie bar? And he had to do it twice...
I just wished that sanso and his acciona would have had a finish, because i simply favor the idea of sailing around the world without a drop of fossil energy...
Capt V - Yes, those were the problems about which Stamm was quite vocal in his video broadcasts and in interviews with the media. But there were other concerns about which he wasn't quite as vocal, for whatever reasons, and IIRC they had to do with the boat design and build quality issues. When one is speaking of such things one must be very careful, for obvious legal and insurance reasons. Stamm may have had opinions about certain things, but he still wanted to be on the line for the start of the VG. I suspect he and his team kept things to themselves.

But that is mostly speculation at this point, and we will see if Stamm eventually has more to say. Even if, as he noted, the conditions they encountered were "manageable", they were still very rough and it is conceivable that dropping off the back of a particularly steep wave could have been enough to break the boat even without any design or build issues at all. Sometimes these things just happen.

Personally, I hope Stamm's sponsors are willing to come up with money for a new boat - which I predict will not be a JuanK design but more likely come from VPLP.

NOTE: I'm not trashing JuanK designs, many of which have been extremely successful and competitive. But even the best designers sometimes don't come up with the best designs - e.g., Farr in previous Volvos. And I believe Stamm's boat was JuanK's first IMOCA 60 effort.

We deal in lead, friend.
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