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  #5551  
Old 12-26-2013
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Sydney-Hobart

It seems that the glory days of Wild Oats have come to an end and that this year the boat will be beaten even by smaller but more modern boats.

Wild Oats is a 2005 Rieche & Pugh design and 9 years are already a lot in what regards yacht and hull design even if the boat was continually updated in what regards keel, ruder and foils. I have said that it seemed to me that the 2008 JK Loyal (ex-Rambler) would be a faster boat on most conditions and it seems that he will find ahead even more favorable conditions then what he had find till know (strong downwind winds).

On the last editions Wild Oats had not the competition of state of the art designs, at least in what regards big yachts and that has changed this year.

There are racing two last generation VOR 70 (ex-Telefonica and ex-Groupama) and this two, even if 30ft smaller seems to be able to keep up with the bigger boat while Loyal is going away.

This is also a competition between two types of hull, one, the one from Wild Oats, much more narrow, less powerful, with less drag and the more common modern type, beamier with more drag but also more powerful.

This is the type of a race where the first type has more chances of beating the second one that is an overall more versatile design. I believe that for doing that it would need or light winds or upwind sailing with big seas and that on all other conditions the more moderated design would have a clear advantage.

It will be very interesting to follow the evolution of this race, not only in what regards the race itself but regarding the battle between this two kinds of different sailing concepts.

A look at the two very different boats:









Wild Oats XI...............................................P erpetual Loyal (ex-Rambler 100)

Maxi sloop 100’............................................Ma xi sloop 30m
NA : Reichel-Pugh........................................NA : Juan Kouyoumdjian

Built by McConaghy, Sydney 2005...................Built by Cookson Boat, Auckland 2008
Hull Lenght : 30,48 m....................................Hull Lenght : 30.00 m
LOA : 33,83 m.............................................LOA : 33,59 m
LWL : 29,70 m.............................................LWL : 29,99 m

Beam : 5,40 m.............................................Beam : 7.00 m
Draft : 5,50 m.............................................Draf t : 5,70 m

Mast height : 44,10 m..................................Mast height : 46,50 m

upwind sails: 610 m2....................................upwind sails: 630 m2
downwind sails : 1 262 m2............................downwind sails : 1 340 m2
Displacement : 32 t.....................................Displacement : 30.6 t
Ballast : 14 t..............................................Bal last : 8 t

Tracker - Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race 2013
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Last edited by PCP; 12-26-2013 at 09:01 AM.
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  #5552  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by robelz View Post
Has it? I mean it was never a dominator but always close to the lead... And Stamm to me doesn't seem to be one of the best sailors in the world...

Meanwhile Riechers gave his 6yo Farr designed Open 60 to VPLP and they redesigned the whole front and gave it much more volume: Barcelona World Race: Jörg Riechers über den Umbau des neuen 60ers ?Mare? | SegelReporter

Even if you don't understand German you will understand the pictures...
And you can see why here:



This is a VPLP 2007 design and we can see that the boat on those conditions is pretty much burring the bow on the water while surfing big waves and that's no good and puts a huge load on the boat structure. I guess they know quite well what they are doing.

Regards

Paulo
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  #5553  
Old 12-26-2013
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
And you can see why here:

This is a VPLP 2007 design and we can see that the boat on those conditions is pretty much burring the bow on the water while surfing big waves and that's no good and puts a huge load on the boat structure. I guess they know quite well what they are doing.

Regards

Paulo
This, again, vindicates David Raison's scow design, as we have also seen in videos of 747 sailing in similar conditions. Keeping the bow out of the backs of waves in surfing/planing conditions is really fast and reduces stress on the rig and on the pilots.

We have seen a move toward more fullness in the bows on the last generation Volvo 70s and on the VPLP boats that dominated the last Vendée - Macif and Banque Populaire. Of course, the changes have been more evolutionary than what Raison did, primarily because the VO70s and IMOCA 60s have to be optimized for more varied conditions - the Mini 6.50 design brief can allow for less variation in conditions.

Even so, I think this last MT demonstrated that the scow concept is not necessarily slow upwind - indeed, only in the lightest breeze does the additional drag start to play a factor and slows the design relative to more traditional designs, with narrower bows and finer entries.

So I believe we need to get used to this design trend - it may not have the aesthetic elegance of traditional hull shapes (though I find the scow to be quite handsome in its own way), but it is undeniably fast for offshore ocean racing. From what little we've seen of the Pogo 30, it appears to incorporate much more fullness in the bow section than the Pogo 2 or the Nacira design (which was so potent this year).
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  #5554  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
Pelicano - stamm had on his boat the towing generators mounted on vertical rails while a lot of others had them on a single point fixture, so they could swing them up or down as they need them... Due to collisions and probably other problems as well stamm lost both, which was a major part of his troubles...
The second big issue was his main winch in the center of the cockpit at the bulkhead... He tried to repair it two times i think, but if one knows how complex those things are. I cannot think of any way to fix one of them myself, let alone at sea...
And then one thing let to the other... Without main winch, no alternative power (which ate up his fuel supplies) he was forced to sail without autopilot for 5 days only to reach cape hoorn... Where he refilled and finally dropped out.

But you are right - i cannot await the next edition!
Btw: i do think that gabbart is a robot...
Just kidding - le cleach showed less of emotions, at least on his live footages...
I followed the last edition all the way through and there were some remarkable feats performed...
JP dick bringing his boat home without keel not the least of them...
Do you know the video footage from thompson repairing his broken tie bar? And he had to do it twice...
I just wished that sanso and his acciona would have had a finish, because i simply favor the idea of sailing around the world without a drop of fossil energy...
Capt V - Yes, those were the problems about which Stamm was quite vocal in his video broadcasts and in interviews with the media. But there were other concerns about which he wasn't quite as vocal, for whatever reasons, and IIRC they had to do with the boat design and build quality issues. When one is speaking of such things one must be very careful, for obvious legal and insurance reasons. Stamm may have had opinions about certain things, but he still wanted to be on the line for the start of the VG. I suspect he and his team kept things to themselves.

But that is mostly speculation at this point, and we will see if Stamm eventually has more to say. Even if, as he noted, the conditions they encountered were "manageable", they were still very rough and it is conceivable that dropping off the back of a particularly steep wave could have been enough to break the boat even without any design or build issues at all. Sometimes these things just happen.

Personally, I hope Stamm's sponsors are willing to come up with money for a new boat - which I predict will not be a JuanK design but more likely come from VPLP.

NOTE: I'm not trashing JuanK designs, many of which have been extremely successful and competitive. But even the best designers sometimes don't come up with the best designs - e.g., Farr in previous Volvos. And I believe Stamm's boat was JuanK's first IMOCA 60 effort.
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  #5555  
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Farr and VOR

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
.... e.g., Farr in previous Volvos. And I believe Stamm's boat was JuanK's first IMOCA 60 effort.
Yes, that's why he was rewarded into design the new VOR one class

Seriously I can wait to see the time the new VOR to compete with the older ones in other races. I would not be surprised if they were slower

Regards

Paulo
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Sydney-Hobart

Nobody has anything to say? Nobody following this one?

That's true that the tracker is a stone age thing that does not even have a weather prevision or a play back button but this seems to be the more interesting Sydney-Hobart in years with some very curious results being probably the more unexpected the outstanding results of the two VOR70 towards much bigger boats leaving behind several older designed Maxi 100ft racing yachts. Among the two VOR 70, the Juan Kouyoumdjian Giacamo (ex- Grupama) is making a great race fighting head to head with the favorite 30ft bigger Wild Oats.

Black Jack (ex-Telefonica), also a JK designed boat, is not faraway and ahead of other two Maxi 100ft favorites, the Ragamuffin 100 (designed by Greg Elliott in 1989 and extensively modified in 2004 when it was lengthened to 98ft and again in 2009, lengthened this time to 100ft) and the old Skandia, now re-baptized Wild Thing (designed by Don Jones in 2003).

Wild thing is head to head with the new designed Botin Beau Gest and even if the Botin is 20ft shorter many, including me, would expect a better performance, one not inferior of the two VOR 70. Maybe the boat is just too new and not yet completely sorted out.

All the other boats are well behind being the first of them the brand new Ichi Ban, a Carkeek 60 (Carkeek design).

For now the man that rules is Juan Kouyoumdjian whose designs are not only leading the race, but that has between the four first three of them
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Last edited by PCP; 12-26-2013 at 02:24 PM.
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  #5557  
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Re: Sydney-Hobart

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Nobody has anything to say? Nobody following this one?

That's true that the tracker is a stone age thing that does not even have a weather prevision or a play back button but this seems to be the more interesting Sydney-Hobart in years with some very curious results being probably the more unexpected the outstanding results of the two VOR70 towards much bigger boats leaving behind several older designed Maxi 100ft racing yachts. Among the two VOR 70, the Juan Kouyoumdjian Giacamo (ex- Grupama) is making a great race fighting head to head with the favorite 30ft bigger Wild Oats.

Black Jack (ex-Telefonica), also a JK designed boat, is not faraway and ahead of other two Maxi 100ft favorites, the Ragamuffin 100 (designed by Greg Elliott in 1989 and extensively modified in 2004 when it was lengthened to 98ft and again in 2009, lengthened this time to 100ft) and the old Skandia, now re-baptized Wild Thing (designed by Don Jones in 2003).

Wild thing is head to head with the new designed Botin Beau Gest and even if the Botin is 20ft shorter many, including me, would expect a better performance, one not inferior of the two VOR 70. Maybe the boat is just too new and not yet completely sorted out.

All the other boats are well behind being the first of them the brand new Ichi Ban, a Carkeek 60 (Carkeek design).

For now the man that rules is Juan Kouyoumdjian whose designs are not only leading the race, but that has between the four first three of them
I was following the race at the start, and watched the initial videos on the McConaghy FB site. But, as you say, it is difficult to get very excited about this race due to the antique coverage. There really is no good reason that cameras could not be mounted on all the IRC 0 boats, at least. But since this is still a largely "amateur" event (despite all the top boats being professionally crewed), there's no pressure from sponsors for better media coverage.

In my earlier remarks about this race, I had my money on the VO 70's, after seeing how quick Black Jack was in the SOLAS Regatta, relative to Wild Oats and Loyal. And at the start, on the fetch to the first turning mark, you could see Giacomo blasting along on the starboard side of the course, easily keeping pace with the Maxis and Mini-Maxis. Beau Geste rounded second, behind WO, with Black Jack in fourth behind Loyal.

And I certainly have to agree with you, Paulo, that the decision to award the VO One Design contract to Farr, after JuanK boats have dominated that race (not to mention having proved execeedingly durable), was a questionable decision. Unless, of course, the goals was to slow the VO boats down and make sure they all finish every leg. But in that case, why not buy some Clipper 70s?
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  #5558  
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The first Whitbread Round the World 1973/4

Sure, it was a long time ago and the video is available on the NET but those videos had a very low quality and were a pain to watch. Not anymore. This one was remastered on HD.

This is the race that was largely dominated by Great Britain II and Chay Blyth that won three of the four legs in real time, losing overboard a crew member on the process.

Two other man were lost on other boats overboard. Is good to remember that when he talk about the danger of racing on modern VOR (that go at more than two times the speed of these old shoes) like if it was more dangerous now than then.

Eric Tabarly also entered this one but with bad luck chasing him: He broke the mast twice in two different legs, won another one and beat the world's sailing 24 hour absolute record.

The race now in HD:

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  #5559  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

S2H
Loyal and Oats even entering Bass Strait
Running in light breeze favors the narrow Oats
BIG breeze coming entering Hobart
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

WOXI leads the pack now, 5nm ahead of PL. I was so curious on the performance of the Sydney GTS43 but there is not a single one racing...
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