Interesting Sailboats - Page 56 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree1264Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #551  
Old 01-16-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,162
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Ovni 395

Well, that friendly discussion with Osmundl about the OVNI 395 performances can give the impression that I am saying that it is a bad boat or an uninteresting one. It is not the case and probably it was already time that we post here about an OVNI and from their line the 395 is one of the more interesting.

Aluminum centerboards are one of the French preferred options in what regards passagemaking boats and particularly the OVNI 435 was a sailing legend with many boats sold and an incredibly number of circumnavigations made.

These boats have changed the paradigm of centerboarders. The Dutch ones had almost 50% of ballast, the French ones have about 35% and that permits them to be much faster sailboats at the cost of a lower AVS (the 435 had 107) and a big inverted stability. Even so, the particularly good dynamic stability characteristics made them difficult boats to capsize (I don't know of any report of a capsized 435).

Regarding the many other French options regarding centerboarders, the OVNIS have an huge advantage: price

It is of no use for most, excellent boats like the Atlantic, if they cost so much that only very few have the money to buy one.

The OVNIS have democratized aluminum boats. Sure they have a somewhat rude look and some would not find them beautiful, but they are strong and well designed in what regards the thing for what they were made off.

You would not win races in one, but modern ones offer an almost equal performance as basic modern big production cruisers, except upwind where the performance is 5 to 10 degrees worse, as it would be on any non ballasted keel centerboarder.

As I have said, from the present line the OVNI 395 offers an interesting performance and qualities at a fair price, lower than any concurrence. He has already talked about the Allures 40, that I prefer, but it costs substantially more and the other options are even more expensive.

So, lets have a look at the OVNI 395:











Fair enough Osmundl?

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 11:04 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #552  
Old 01-16-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 290
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 5
myocean is on a distinguished road
I think it does not look "rude" - the Ovni looks quite good at least outside!
Ulf
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #553  
Old 01-16-2011
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 16
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
gbaratta is on a distinguished road
WOW! Have to say this is truly one of the top in the many boats you posted. Looks very rugged, but its also using some very interesting and fresh technology. It look like a "go anywhere and be safe" machine.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I like so much the concept of a go anywhere strong boat that I have taken a lot of work looking for one, I mean one that besides those attributes had also the one that is difficult to have together with the others: Speed

And I have found it, a Dutch boat designed by Dick Zall, The Atlantic 43. It is a more than 6 old year design, but one that was so advanced for its time that I will gladly have one if I could pay the price (more than 500 000€).

The Atlantic 43 is an Aluminum boat with variable draft and a hull that is based on the Open 60 design. Bulb down it has around 3.00M draft, Bulb up 1.3M. Of course it can not be beached as the OVNI, but with 1.3M Draft he can go everywhere and it has a much much bigger sail potential.

Just to give you an idea regarding the difference in stability and sail power, the Ovni has all the ballast inside the boat, near the gravity center and a Ballast/displacement of 36%. The Atlantic has a better Ballast/displacement ratio : 39% and has its ballast not inside the boat, but down, several meters
under the boat center of gravity. The difference in stability will be huge, as the capacity to carry sail upwind as also the safety reserve stability and the AVS.

























modellen_atlantic_43_title | Atlantic 43 | Atlantic Yachts

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

------------------------------------------------------------
I want to get up every day without repeating myself.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #554  
Old 01-16-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,162
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Paulo's boats

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbaratta View Post
WOW! Have to say this is truly one of the top in the many boats you posted. Looks very rugged, but its also using some very interesting and fresh technology. It look like a "go anywhere and be safe" machine.
Yes, thats about it, go anywhere, safe...and fast.

Yes, that is not by accident that 6 years ago when I thought that I could have the money to have the boat that I wanted I had taken that boat as a basis (not really that one but a very similar boat designed by the same architect) and have modified the interior to suit my tastes.

I had contacted Dick Zall, sent it the Drawings (made over his drawings with some minor hull alterations) and asked him if he was available to modify its designs accordingly, to accommodate my boat. I can design the interiors and hull shapes, but the structural inside of the boat is another matter and needed someone with an expertise on that area.

It was OK with him...but the crisis was arriving and all the project was suddenly very out of budget. It would have cost a bit less than an Atlantis 43.

Contrary to the Atlantic 43 it was a full pilot house boat. Take a look at some of the drawings:





Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 11:06 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #555  
Old 01-16-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 290
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 5
myocean is on a distinguished road
Atlantic 43 seems is as interesting as a Cigale. And as a Cigale it is really far too expensive..

One more hint regarding the Pacer 376:
Here a must-see video about that boat - WOW!
TEAM OCEAN 60 NEWS

Ulf
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #556  
Old 01-17-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,162
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Talking about boats that we can buy , it seems that the guys from Bavaria have heard us complaining about the weight and sail area of their new Bavaria 40.

The boat would be hopelessly outperformed by the new Jeanneau 409, so they have made a new version, the 40S. It will be lighter, it will have a bigger sail area and a traveler nearer the wheel.

I will bring more details from Dusseldorf.

Now, if they just change also that poor interior...we would have a really great boat

Sportliche Bavaria - YACHT: Test & Technik - News

Regards

Paulo
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #557  
Old 01-18-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 290
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 5
myocean is on a distinguished road
I still like to compare polars and just got data for the RM1200. So here our numbers again...

Over all not faster than an Elan 350. Do we have data from the Ovni?


(black= J409 Red=D40e Blue=E380 Brown=E350 Green=Pogo 12.50 Orange=RM1200)

6K wind at 70º = 6K (6.7)(6.4)(6.2) (6.8) (5.7)

8K wind at 60º = 7K (7.3)(7.1) (6.9) (7.7) (6.7)

12K wind at 70º = 8K (8.2) (7.8) (7.2) (8.91) (7.9)

25K wind at 110º = 10K (10.6) (10) (9.8) (13.7) (10.1)

25K wind at 150º = 10.5K (10.8) (11.2) (11.2) (15.5) (10.8).

Ulf

Last edited by myocean; 01-18-2011 at 03:09 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #558  
Old 01-18-2011
OsmundL's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Norway (sometimes)
Posts: 361
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 6
OsmundL is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
However the biggest difference would be upwind, with the Xp making 30º to true wind
Paulo
I am a little cautious about numbers for Xp-38 (and some others). Comparing the Polar Diagrams for one boat against real-world testing of another can give drastic misinterpretation. Polar diagrams are theoretical calculations from sail, hull and keel data; real-world tests are how people actually sail.

The Xp-38 has not been tested as far as I know; it is not to be launched until summer 2011, so instead of finished boat we have the polar charts. The manufacturer publishes a chart for Xp-38, and they do not show data down to 30º; it stops short by a few degrees and seems to show stalling from there onwards. They also specify flat water. It would be optimistic to state anything about its 30º performance when X--Yachts doesn’t.

The only half comparable guides we have, then, are real-world tests of earlier X-Yachts. The X-34 performance cruiser is in the same league as Xp-38; beyond that I found tests of Xc-42 and Xc-45, both in the cruiser range.

X-Yachts quote this test of the X-34, so they must be pleased with it: It says that: in “wind .. force 3 to 4 (i.e. 7-17 knots)” … “she moved with 6,5 knots and 40 degrees true wind angle up the beat.”

The test of the Xc-42 says “in strong winds” … “close-hauled it maintained an angle of almost 40 degrees to the true wind and maintained speeds that were consistently above 7 knots.”

The test (Yachting World) of Xc-45 says, “Powering back up onto the wind, she consistently stayed above 8 knots, between 40º-50º off the wind, tacking through 80º at over five knots.”

We have three real-world tests of X-Yachts all speaking of beating angles at 40º plus. Allowing for some improvements in the Xp-38 we can hope it is better, but it takes a leap of faith to believe that X-Yachts, experts at designing upwind performance, should suddenly invent a yacht going a full 10º higher.

Enough about this. My only point is/was that real-world conditions can be a great leveller.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #559  
Old 01-18-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,162
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
RM 1200 boat speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by myocean View Post
I still like to compare polars and just got data for the RM1200. So here our numbers again...

Over all not faster than an Elan 350. Do we have data from the Ovni?


(black= J409 Red=D40e Blue=E380 Brown=E350 Green=Pogo 12.50 Orange=RM1200)

6K wind at 70º = 6K (6.7)(6.4)(6.2) (6.8) (5.7)

8K wind at 60º = 7K (7.3)(7.1) (6.9) (7.7) (6.7)

12K wind at 70º = 8K (8.2) (7.8) (7.2) (8.91) (7.9)

25K wind at 110º = 10K (10.6) (10) (9.8) (13.7) (10.1)

25K wind at 150º = 10.5K (10.8) (11.2) (11.2) (15.5) (10.8).

Ulf
Ulf,

I will try to find an OVNI 395 polar curve. It will be interesting to compare even if I can have a pretty good idea of the results

Regarding the RM comparison the results are what I would have expected: Regarding the Jeanneau 409 the RM is slightly slower upwind and slightly faster downwind. Anyway we are talking about the fastest 40ft pure cruising boats around and remember that the Jeanneau 409 is the performance version.

Each year new boats are faster than previous models. The Jeanneau is a brand new model, the RM 1200 is a 8 year old model that will be substituted by a new (and faster model) soon. The RM 1200 remains surprisingly modern even in what regards performance, taking into account its "age".

For the ones that are interested in a superior sailing performances they can mount a performance main sail, like the one on these photos:







The owner of that boat reports that the boat can make about more 1K with light winds (4 to 9K) and refers these reference speeds (measured):

35 TWA with 11/12 TWS = 7.4K boat speed

90 TWA with 10.8 TWS = 8.4K boat speed

90 TWA with 5.0 TWS = 4.7 boat speed

Comparing a performance cruiser like the Elan 350 with the Jeanneau 409 or the RM 1200 it is not fair. It would be like comparing any of those two fast cruisers with a centerboarder with all its ballast inside the hull.

I only made that comparison because I was interested in the differences in speed. The feeling you will have on a performance cruiser-racer like the Elan or a First is completely different (that's why I have tested both type of boats ). You will have on a Jeanneau or a RM a much more forgiven boat, a less "nervous" boat with a less sensible wheel that can carry a bigger payload.

You just have to know what you want.

On a modern cruiser racer you will have a boat that is more affected by a sudden gust of wind, a more nervous boat with a more direct ruder, a boat that will accelerate much faster and that would be more fun to sail, and off course, considerably faster.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 11:08 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #560  
Old 01-19-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,162
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by OsmundL View Post
I am a little cautious about numbers for Xp-38 (and some others). Comparing the Polar Diagrams for one boat against real-world testing of another can give drastic misinterpretation. Polar diagrams are theoretical calculations from sail, hull and keel data; real-world tests are how people actually sail.
Polar speeds, made by the boat designer are quite accurate. They normally prove true with the real performance of the boat, if the sailing conditions are the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OsmundL View Post
The Xp-38 has not been tested as far as I know; it is not to be launched until summer 2011, so instead of finished boat we have the polar charts. The manufacturer publishes a chart for Xp-38, and they do not show data down to 30º; it stops short by a few degrees and seems to show stalling from there onwards. They also specify flat water. It would be optimistic to state anything about its 30º performance when X--Yachts doesn’t.
On polar speeds, boat manufacturers only show speeds at angles that are normally used. The XP 38 starts at 32º and at 5K wind.

You can obtain a quite accurate reading if you prolong the curve, with the same shape till you reach 30º (it is really a very small gap). The Xp 38 with weak winds would not be efficient sailing at 30º (meaning you can have more way if you sail with a slightly bigger open and more speed), but with stronger winds it can sail efficiently with 30º of wind, specially if you need to (to pass a cape or an obstacle, for example).

Quote:
Originally Posted by OsmundL View Post
The X-34 performance cruiser is in the same league as Xp-38; beyond that I found tests of Xc-42 and Xc-45, both in the cruiser range.

X-Yachts quote this test of the X-34, so they must be pleased with it: It says that: in “wind .. force 3 to 4 (i.e. 7-17 knots)” … “she moved with 6,5 knots and 40 degrees true wind angle up the beat.”

The test of the Xc-42 says “in strong winds” … “close-hauled it maintained an angle of almost 40 degrees to the true wind and maintained speeds that were consistently above 7 knots.”

The test (Yachting World) of Xc-45 says, “Powering back up onto the wind, she consistently stayed above 8 knots, between 40º-50º off the wind, tacking through 80º at over five knots.”

We have three real-world tests of X-Yachts all speaking of beating angles at 40º plus. Allowing for some improvements in the Xp-38 we can hope it is better, but it takes a leap of faith to believe that X-Yachts, experts at designing upwind performance, should suddenly invent a yacht going a full 10º higher.
I really don't understand your point. I never have said that the Xc 38 or the Xc 42 could point in the area of the 30º. They are completely different boats from the Xp 38. The Xp 38 is much faster and can point a lot higher. When I said that you should compare your boat with the Xc 38 (and not with the Xp 38) was because it would make some sense comparing it with the Xc-38 and none with the Xp 38.

Regarding the Xp 34 speed, the value that was measured by the boat testers is accordingly with its Polar speed. It was not said (on the boat test) that the boat could not do less than 40º but that at 40º was making 6.5K an excellent performance for a 34ft boat. If the boat could make (in 3 to 4 B) 6.5K, it could still made good speed with a lesser wind angle (certainly you now about that).

Quote:
Originally Posted by OsmundL View Post
... Why not put some vital stats of Xp-38 alongside Ovni 395? The similarities are striking, although nuances are obvious. Luckily, the two have identical LWL, making for sensible comparison.

There is a set of formulae often used for estimating performance and so forth; you can find them at US Sailing:
Sailboat Design and Stability

....
Real differences, not revealed in formulae, lie in sail handling gear, details in hull shape and more. I noted the claim that X-38 can “plane” – just for reference: so does Ovni, and it can do it with the keel up. Good fun!

Overall, the numbers resonate with gut feelings, that both are good boats and in real-life usage not as dramatically different as one might assume.
You are wrong about this and continue to insist on it. The Xp 38, in what regards sailing performance is a completely different boat from the OVNI 395 and not a comparable boat. We are comparing a boat that by modern standards is very fast with a boat that has an average sailing performance (a good one if we take in consideration that is a central boarder with all ballast inside the hull).

Even if we compare it with the X-38 the OVNI 395, that is a bigger boat, will be a slower boat, pointing considerably less to the wind ( at least 5º, possibly more). The only sailing position were the OVNI, if not very loaded, will not be significantly slower is downwind and even so I would have to look at both polars to be sure.

When the OVNI 395 was tested by the French magazine "Bateau" they have said very nice things about the boat and its improved sailing performance (in regard to older OVNI). On the conclusion they have rated its sailing performance upwind as 3 (average) and downwind as 4 (good).

That's in their opinion an excellent performance for a center board boat. They are, by design, not properly good going upwind. A good and fast cruiser like the Jeanneau 409 would have deserved at least 4 (good) on both counts and a top performance boat like the Xp-38 would be rated 5 (very good) also on both counts.

OsmundL, this is not personal but this thread is also about boat design and I want to provide here a fair perspective about each type of boat and that includes centerboarders.

If I can find an OVNI 395 boat polar we could join to the numbers that were posted by Myocean, the numbers from the OVNI and from some 40ft cruising racers, like the First 40 or Elan 410 and that will give us a fair perspective of the sailing performances of the three types of boats (same size).

That will contribute for a better comprehension of how boat design relates with performance.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 01-19-2011 at 11:57 AM. Reason: Bad English
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 10 (1 members and 9 guests)
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cruising sailboats for sale welch Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 10 04-25-2012 05:20 PM
THE Yacht Builder List T37Chef Boat Review and Purchase Forum 26 07-08-2011 05:51 AM
Noob wonderings and questions about sailing, life at sail and sailboats Vans General Discussion (sailing related) 49 06-20-2011 12:18 AM
A List of ALL sailboats made with layouts? Myblueheaven Boat Review and Purchase Forum 8 10-08-2010 11:32 AM
Failure to Navigate - interesting post on Panbo Blog & from the NewsReader Mass Bay Sailors 0 12-11-2006 06:15 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:27 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.