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post #5721 of 6763 Old 01-14-2014 Thread Starter
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"Traditional" approach versus "Modern" approach.

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
OK, That makes sense to me. I will stop using "Euro" and I will use "modern". That's fair.
I appreciate the explanation.

You know this means I'm going to have to talk about you again?
You know the problem relates with the meaning of words, like modern opposed to old when that meaning does not exist regarding art: Modern art does not mean that it is more "modern" than other forms of art namely for instance hiper realism that is pretty much opposed to modern art.

Regarding architecture "modern" is also related with an abstract form of expression, by opposed to some other forms of expression, for instance Pos-modernism, that in fact is not modern since it uses traditional references. Both are contemporary styles.

Regarding NA and since sailboats are imminently functional objects an approach towards functionalism is fundamental. That approach is carried to the limits in what regards "modern" boats while on other contemporary boats, on those that use as reference traditional and classical forms, the functionalist approach is used in what regards the essential "working" parts of a boat but they don't go to the limit in what regards less important (in what regards performance) parts, like cabin design, bow and transom design were traditional shapes can make the difference in what regards the perception of beauty without a significant loss in performance (in what regards cruising).

The key word is the perception of beauty that for a "modern" NA is directed linked to a fundamentalist approach regarding performance (fast is beautiful) while for a "traditional" Na beauty does not exist out of shapes and forms related with tradition.

Pascal Conq, from Finot-Conq made an essay where he developed that concept of beauty ("modern") related with absolute performance. According to this way of viewing things race boats will represent beauty in itself and cruising boats to be beautiful have to follow race boats lines, at least in what is possible, since they have other requirements in what concerns interior height and interior light.

take for instance the design of the new Dehler 46: it is a performance cruiser but it looks like a very sharp racer and therefore is beautiful according to a "modern" perspective of beauty. Of course I am quite sure that the "beauty" of its lines will have no interference in the cruising quality of the interior space that will be luminous and luxurious:



Regards

Paulo
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post #5722 of 6763 Old 01-14-2014 Thread Starter
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Cape 2 Rio

Everything remains the same on that race...quite boring. The Maserati is arriving, hugely ahead of any other boat, the TP52 disguised (in a cruiser) is beating the old Open 60 and the small M34 continues to piss the bigger class40 and making a great race.

The only interesting news come regarding that fatal accident with the Bavaria 55 that resulted not only on one dead but several injured. In fact what was strange since the begining was that details of that accident never come out and that is very odd. The only thing that was said was that the boat had lost the mast.

Now details come from Daniel Kohl, head of marketing from the German shipyard. On a note to the main sail magazines it was communicated that the boat was rolled by a gigantic wave and that the mast broke in consequence of that. The crew member that died disappeared in the water and was not seen again.

This is is all very suspicious. Why did not the skipper and crew report the nature of the accident? Why it is Bavaria head of Marketing that reports the circumstances of the accident?

The Black out is total, neither on their club (Angola) they told anything and the club has been posting regularly the reports of the other Angolan team ( on another Bavaria). Both teams have the same sponsor.


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post #5723 of 6763 Old 01-15-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

paulo - i completely agree with you...
used to do motorcycle races (600 cc) and there it is the same - what is fast, is beautiful!
even if it means such a radical design like the new Ker open 40:


on another note - interesting read here: http://www.owenclarkedesign.com/The_...t_power_and_pe

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Re: Cape 2 Rio

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Everything remains the same on that race...quite boring. The Maserati is arriving, hugely ahead of any other boat, the TP52 disguised (in a cruiser) is beating the old Open 60 and the small M34 continues to piss the bigger class40 and making a great race.

The only interesting news come regarding that fatal accident with the Bavaria 55 that resulted not only on one dead but several injured. In fact what was strange since the begining was that details of that accident never come out and that is very odd. The only thing that was said was that the boat had lost the mast.

Now details come from Daniel Kohl, head of marketing from the German shipyard. On a note to the main sail magazines it was communicated that the boat was rolled by a gigantic wave and that the mast broke in consequence of that. The crew member that died disappeared in the water and was not seen again.

This is is all very suspicious. Why did not the skipper and crew report the nature of the accident? Why it is Bavaria head of Marketing that reports the circumstances of the accident?

The Black out is total, neither on their club (Angola) they told anything and the club has been posting regularly the reports of the other Angolan team ( on another Bavaria). Both teams have the same sponsor.
I will hazard a guess that the lack of clear reporting is probably linked to legal liability and insurance considerations. Until everyone involved - particularly the skipper - has had an opportunity to "lawyer up" (as we say in the United States, the global leader in personal injury litigation), it is safer to say little or nothing at all.

Once there is a formal inquiry, I expect we will finally get something approaching the "truth" of the matter. We should not be surprised that Bavaria is speaking up, given their own history of litigation issues involving alleged keel failures. I'm sure they want to make it clear that the accident had nothing to do with the boat design or construction, to the extent they are able to do so.

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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
paulo - i completely agree with you...
used to do motorcycle races (600 cc) and there it is the same - what is fast, is beautiful!
....
on another note - interesting read here: The relationship between displacement, power and performance in Open 60 design : Owen Clarke Design - Yacht Design and Naval Architects
It is not a question of agreeing, it is an analyses of what happens in what regards sailor' perception regarding what they find beautiful (and why) and I do understand and find beauty in both concepts, the one I called modern and the other I called traditional: I have posted on this thread many designs of Gerard Dijkstra one of the contemporary masters in what regards what I call "traditional" design and I do love his designs as I do love some of Bob Perry designs.

Regarding that Owen and Clark link it is an interesting one but it is more about power versus speed and show that not always the more powerful is the faster at least in what regards solo sailing. No news there, any racer even from the motorsport world knows that: power is just a part of the equation, an important one for sure but not the only one.

The "modern" approach in what regards the search for beauty trough performance shapes is today more widespread in yacht design than the use of traditional shapes and you are right into pointing out that is also the Owen and Clark approach. we can see that not only on their designs but also on this quotes that we find on their site:

"Those who fall in love with practice yet without science are like a sailor who steers a ship without helm or compass, and who never can be certain whither he is going"

Leonardo da Vinci


For all Owen Clarke Design projects, the common denominator is performance, regardless of whether the yacht is a cruising or racing design.

Owen and Clark


Regards

Paulo


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Re: "Traditional" approach versus "Modern" approach.

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
You know the problem relates with the meaning of words, like modern opposed to old when that meaning does not exist regarding art: Modern art does not mean that it is more "modern" than other forms of art namely for instance hiper realism that is pretty much opposed to modern art.

Regarding architecture "modern" is also related with an abstract form of expression, by opposed to some other forms of expression, for instance Pos-modernism, that in fact is not modern since it uses traditional references. Both are contemporary styles.

Regarding NA and since sailboats are imminently functional objects an approach towards functionalism is fundamental. That approach is carried to the limits in what regards "modern" boats while on other contemporary boats, on those that use as reference traditional and classical forms, the functionalist approach is used in what regards the essential "working" parts of a boat but they don't go to the limit in what regards less important (in what regards performance) parts, like cabin design, bow and transom design were traditional shapes can make the difference in what regards the perception of beauty without a significant loss in performance (in what regards cruising).

The key word is the perception of beauty that for a "modern" NA is directed linked to a fundamentalist approach regarding performance (fast is beautiful) while for a "traditional" Na beauty does not exist out of shapes and forms related with tradition.

Pascal Conq, from Finot-Conq made an essay where he developed that concept of beauty ("modern") related with absolute performance. According to this way of viewing things race boats will represent beauty in itself and cruising boats to be beautiful have to follow race boats lines, at least in what is possible, since they have other requirements in what concerns interior height and interior light.

take for instance the design of the new Dehler 46: it is a performance cruiser but it looks like a very sharp racer and therefore is beautiful according to a "modern" perspective of beauty. Of course I am quite sure that the "beauty" of its lines will have no interference in the cruising quality of the interior space that will be luminous and luxurious:



Regards

Paulo
This is a truly beautiful (and modern) boat. JV has been doing incredible work for Dehler lately and the Dehler 46 rivals (for me) the perfect blend of performance and cruisability that we have recently seen in the Jason Ker-designed Sydney GTS43. I expect the Dehler will have more cruising comforts than the more race-oriented Sydney, but place them side by side and you would have the poster boats for modern functional performance cruising design.





These are boats that turn heads when you enter the harbor or marina.

NOTE: Let me quickly add that I'm also a fan of traditional or "classic" designs. For example, I really love the look of the early Cheoy Lee designs of the 1960s and very early 1970's, particularly the Clipper 33.



I believe a Mr. Bob Perry contributed 3 designs to Cheoy Lee in the 1980's, if memory serves (35, 41, 44). Like this 44' beauty:


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Functionalism and modern art in what regards Naval Architecture:

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Problem is it is not "universal". Folks still buy and build Chippendale furniture. It has timeless beauty and is very functional....Same thing the modern art went elsewhere. ...It has nothing to do with function. ..
..
I guess you did not understood what I meant by Universal. Modern art is rooted in functionalist:

" Functionalism, in architecture, is the principle that architects should design a building based on the purpose of that building....Augustus Welby Pugin wrote that "there should be no features about a building which are not necessary for convenience, construction, or propriety" and "all ornament should consist of enrichment of the essential construction of the building"...The roots of modern architecture lie in the work of the Franco-Swiss architect Le Corbusier and the German architect Mies van der Rohe. Both were functionalists..."

Wikipedia

What is said there is not different in what regards aesthetics in Yacht design, you have just to substitute yacht by building and you will have:

Functionalism that is on the roots of modern yacht design, is the principle that NA should design a sailing yacht based on the purpose of sailing. The design should not be influenced by anything other than necessary for convenience, performance and building. All traditional elements that serve no performance purpose should be eliminated and the beauty of the boat will result exclusively from the search of a better sail performance.

This approach will result in an Universal approach in the sense that what makes a boat sail better and be faster in Australia is not different than what makes a boat faster in Europe or US. This approach is strongly based on a scientific research and uses extensively sail racing as means of improving cruising boats, even if slightly. The designs from the American Cabinets of Reischel & Pugh or Farr will not be different from the ones of the Europeans Judel/Vrolijk, Owen and Clark or Finot/Conq neither different than the work of the South American JK, Soto Acebal or the Australian/NZ designers like Greg Elliott, Bakewell-White and Murray Burns & Dovell.

A traditional approach is not an universal one for the simple reason that the shapes and traditions that are used to "ornament" contemporary sailboats vary widely with regional traditions. That is way Bob Perry talks about an American Yacht design while we can talk about Dutch yacht design when we refer to the boats designed by Gerard Dijkstra.

Regards

Paulo


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Re: Functionalism and modern art in what regards Naval Architecture:

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I guess you did not understood what I meant by Universal. Modern art is rooted in functionalist:

" Functionalism, in architecture, is the principle that architects should design a building based on the purpose of that building....Augustus Welby Pugin wrote that "there should be no features about a building which are not necessary for convenience, construction, or propriety" and "all ornament should consist of enrichment of the essential construction of the building"...The roots of modern architecture lie in the work of the Franco-Swiss architect Le Corbusier and the German architect Mies van der Rohe. Both were functionalists..."

Wikipedia

What is said there is not different in what regards aesthetics in Yacht design, you have just to substitute yacht by building and you will have:

Functionalism that is on the roots of modern yacht design, is the principle that NA should design a sailing yacht based on the purpose of sailing. The design should not be influenced by anything other than necessary for convenience, performance and building. All traditional elements that serve no performance purpose should be eliminated and the beauty of the boat will result exclusively from the search of a better sail performance.

This approach will result in an Universal approach in the sense that what makes a boat sail better and be faster in Australia is not different than what makes a boat faster in Europe or US. This approach is strongly based on a scientific research and uses extensively sail racing as means of improving cruising boats, even if slightly. The designs from the American Cabinets of Reischel & Pugh or Farr will not be different from the ones of the Europeans Judel/Vrolijk, Owen and Clark or Finot/Conq neither different than the work of the South American JK, Soto Acebal or the Australian/NZ designers like Greg Elliott, Bakewell-White and Murray Burns & Dovell.

A traditional approach is not an universal one for the simple reason that the shapes and traditions that are used to "ornament" contemporary sailboats vary widely with regional traditions. That is way Bob Perry talks about an American Yacht design while we can talk about Dutch yacht design when we refer to the boats designed by Gerard Dijkstra.

Regards

Paulo
Any discussion about "Modern" aesthetics is complicated by the fact that the terms "modern", "modernism" and "modernist" are used somewhat differently depending on the area of practice, be it painting, literature, philosophy, architecture, etc. As Paulo notes, within architectural practice, "modern" or "modernist" is closely associated with functionalism ("Form follows function" - Bauhaus), with an emphasis on science and technology in the pursuit of designs optimized for an object's specified use.

In this respect, modernist design tends to minimize any feature - i.e., "ornamentation" - that doesn't contribute to the optimal functionality of the object.

Having said that, even modernist design must make accommodation for considerations that might not be strictly considered "functional" - i.e., the aesthetic tastes of the customer, which are important to his/her sense of satisfaction with the object being designed.

In such cases, you see examples of what we would consider more traditional designs enhanced by contemporary performance-enhancing qualities like high-aspect rudder blades and strut-bulb keel configurations, or the use of carbon fibre in spars and rigging. These are the types of compromises that are frequently made by naval architects in the design of yachts.

Looking at boats like the Dehler 46 and Sydney GTS43, here we see modernist principles influencing almost every aspect of the design, with a premium placed on sailing performance. But even there, we see compromises - e.g., the closed transom on the Dehler 46 - it definitely serves a cruising/comfort purpose, but is probably less optimal from a performance standpoint than the open transom of the Sydney GTS43.

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Re: Functionalism and modern art in what regards Naval Architecture:

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Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
......
In such cases, you see examples of what we would consider more traditional designs enhanced by contemporary performance-enhancing qualities like high-aspect rudder blades and strut-bulb keel configurations, or the use of carbon fibre in spars and rigging. These are the types of compromises that are frequently made by naval architects in the design of yachts.
..
Taking a "traditional" approach in designing a cruising boat does not mean that on the parts more related with boat performance it is not followed a functionalist perspective but that on the less critical parts in what regards sailing performance an "ornamental" traditional iconography is used to create beauty.

Beauty in this case does not come only from the perfect fulfillment of sail performance but from a mixed way, were performance is more or less compromised by design elements that are there to maintain a traditional language judged indispensable to create beauty.

If a boat designer takes a traditional approach not only on the needed elements to create and maintain its traditional heritage but uses on the critical performance parts (mast, hull, keel and ruder) out-dated and poor performance solutions then he is just designing a poor sailboat and the design quality will be poor. That boat will not be a contemporary design like many of the "traditional" designs are.

Regards

Paulo


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Pogo 3

Talking about beauty, one boat that risks to change concepts in what we call beauty, particularly in what regards that bow that looks like it is going to work as projected, increasing performance with very small drag costs.

from Pogostructures on Vimeo.



Posted by Voile and voiliers a very interesting comparison between the three mini racers that they have produced. We can see that one of the things that have changed is the size of the main sail, always smaller regarding stay sails. The Pogo 2 is still produced but since 2009 only in the US.



Pogo 650
From 1994 to 2000 : 124 exemplaires
NA : Pierre Rolland
Hull Length : 6,50 m
Beam : 2,97 m
Light Displacement : 1 200 kg
Draft : 1,57 m
Main : 24 m2
Genoa : 18 m2
Spi : 72 m2

Pogo 2
From 2002 to 2009 : 115 exemplaires
NA : Finot-Conq
Hull Length : 6,50 m
Beam : 3,00 m
Light displacement : 980 kg
Draft : 1,60 m
Main : 28 m2
Genoa : 18 m2
Spi : 70 m2

Pogo 3
Since 2014
NA : Guillaume Verdier
Hull Length : 6,50 m
Beam : 3,00 m
Light Displacement : 930 kg
Draft : 1,60 m
Main sail : 26 m2
Genoa : 20 m2
spi : 70 m2

also an interesting interview with Christian Bouroullec, the boss from the Structures Shipyard (Pogo)

Mini de série - Chantier Structures : le Pogo nouveau est arrivé ! - Annonce bateaux - Annonces bateaux - Occasion Bateaux - Occasion Voiliers - Occasion voiles


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