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  #5731  
Old 01-14-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Nope Paulo. I just said that we disagree on Euro styling sometimes.
I had three boats to review:
Bavaria Cruiser 51
Dufour 410
Sun Odyssey 349

I also talk about the regular "critics" I have.

The three boats shared numerous features in common. So I made that the theme of this review group. I'll let you know when it is available online.
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  #5732  
Old 01-14-2014
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The improperly called Euro Style:

Regarding euro style the disagreement is not only "sometimes" but about existing one

What you call Euro styles I call modern design (on a sense that like modern art is an Universal one). Some of the best designers of what you call "modern style" are American NA firms like Farr or Reichel & Pugh, others are from Oceania like Ker. Like modern art modern boat design is a "functionalist" one and beauty is clearly related with efficiency regarding sailing. What works better will become beautiful with time and is already beautiful to the eyes of the NA.

I am sure you understand but for the ones that don't this does not mean that I find that is the only right form to design a sailboat. Many times the differences in performance are not significant in what regards cruising but a "modern" Na will always go for the more efficient shape or form (because for him that is beauty) while someone that designs "on the tradition" will give more importance to classic or traditional shapes because on his eyes beauty is not only efficiency but also tradition.

Anyway, I like traditional and classic boats or boats that, like yours, that are on "tradition". I just don't think that what you call European style is an appropriated denomination. If you don't like to call them modern, you can it "Universal style"
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  #5733  
Old 01-14-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

OK, That makes sense to me. I will stop using "Euro" and I will use "modern". That's fair.
I appreciate the explanation.

You know this means I'm going to have to talk about you again?
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  #5734  
Old 01-14-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Problem is it is not "universal". Folks still buy and build Chippendale furniture. It has timeless beauty and is very functional. I've built multiple pieces. They are still in daily use. There are timeless designs be they highboys, Bach, America or a turbo Bentley. There is a comfort provided by the white and wood of a Herreshoff interior or that of Bob's boats or a Morris or Outbound. My parents house was done in Danish modern and cutting edge Euro. My dad collected antique clocks and watches. It was striking to see these pieces displaced in that background. But when we broke their place up I kept the clocks and the furniture went elsewhere. My mom was an art educator and collected some. Same thing the modern art went elsewhere. The good representative art stayed. It's a different view. Not better or worse just different. It has nothing to do with function. Like saying a good rocker is less comfortable then a Morris chair then a Bauhaus then a Stress less. I like the Stress less ( a modern design) wife likes a shaker rocker.
In short Bob's boats are not slow but they are beautiful.
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  #5735  
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"Traditional" approach versus "Modern" approach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
OK, That makes sense to me. I will stop using "Euro" and I will use "modern". That's fair.
I appreciate the explanation.

You know this means I'm going to have to talk about you again?
You know the problem relates with the meaning of words, like modern opposed to old when that meaning does not exist regarding art: Modern art does not mean that it is more "modern" than other forms of art namely for instance hiper realism that is pretty much opposed to modern art.

Regarding architecture "modern" is also related with an abstract form of expression, by opposed to some other forms of expression, for instance Pos-modernism, that in fact is not modern since it uses traditional references. Both are contemporary styles.

Regarding NA and since sailboats are imminently functional objects an approach towards functionalism is fundamental. That approach is carried to the limits in what regards "modern" boats while on other contemporary boats, on those that use as reference traditional and classical forms, the functionalist approach is used in what regards the essential "working" parts of a boat but they don't go to the limit in what regards less important (in what regards performance) parts, like cabin design, bow and transom design were traditional shapes can make the difference in what regards the perception of beauty without a significant loss in performance (in what regards cruising).

The key word is the perception of beauty that for a "modern" NA is directed linked to a fundamentalist approach regarding performance (fast is beautiful) while for a "traditional" Na beauty does not exist out of shapes and forms related with tradition.

Pascal Conq, from Finot-Conq made an essay where he developed that concept of beauty ("modern") related with absolute performance. According to this way of viewing things race boats will represent beauty in itself and cruising boats to be beautiful have to follow race boats lines, at least in what is possible, since they have other requirements in what concerns interior height and interior light.

take for instance the design of the new Dehler 46: it is a performance cruiser but it looks like a very sharp racer and therefore is beautiful according to a "modern" perspective of beauty. Of course I am quite sure that the "beauty" of its lines will have no interference in the cruising quality of the interior space that will be luminous and luxurious:



Regards

Paulo
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  #5736  
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Cape 2 Rio

Everything remains the same on that race...quite boring. The Maserati is arriving, hugely ahead of any other boat, the TP52 disguised (in a cruiser) is beating the old Open 60 and the small M34 continues to piss the bigger class40 and making a great race.

The only interesting news come regarding that fatal accident with the Bavaria 55 that resulted not only on one dead but several injured. In fact what was strange since the begining was that details of that accident never come out and that is very odd. The only thing that was said was that the boat had lost the mast.

Now details come from Daniel Kohl, head of marketing from the German shipyard. On a note to the main sail magazines it was communicated that the boat was rolled by a gigantic wave and that the mast broke in consequence of that. The crew member that died disappeared in the water and was not seen again.

This is is all very suspicious. Why did not the skipper and crew report the nature of the accident? Why it is Bavaria head of Marketing that reports the circumstances of the accident?

The Black out is total, neither on their club (Angola) they told anything and the club has been posting regularly the reports of the other Angolan team ( on another Bavaria). Both teams have the same sponsor.
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  #5737  
Old 01-15-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

paulo - i completely agree with you...
used to do motorcycle races (600 cc) and there it is the same - what is fast, is beautiful!
even if it means such a radical design like the new Ker open 40:


on another note - interesting read here: http://www.owenclarkedesign.com/The_...t_power_and_pe

Last edited by capt vimes; 01-15-2014 at 04:46 AM.
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  #5738  
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Re: Cape 2 Rio

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Everything remains the same on that race...quite boring. The Maserati is arriving, hugely ahead of any other boat, the TP52 disguised (in a cruiser) is beating the old Open 60 and the small M34 continues to piss the bigger class40 and making a great race.

The only interesting news come regarding that fatal accident with the Bavaria 55 that resulted not only on one dead but several injured. In fact what was strange since the begining was that details of that accident never come out and that is very odd. The only thing that was said was that the boat had lost the mast.

Now details come from Daniel Kohl, head of marketing from the German shipyard. On a note to the main sail magazines it was communicated that the boat was rolled by a gigantic wave and that the mast broke in consequence of that. The crew member that died disappeared in the water and was not seen again.

This is is all very suspicious. Why did not the skipper and crew report the nature of the accident? Why it is Bavaria head of Marketing that reports the circumstances of the accident?

The Black out is total, neither on their club (Angola) they told anything and the club has been posting regularly the reports of the other Angolan team ( on another Bavaria). Both teams have the same sponsor.
I will hazard a guess that the lack of clear reporting is probably linked to legal liability and insurance considerations. Until everyone involved - particularly the skipper - has had an opportunity to "lawyer up" (as we say in the United States, the global leader in personal injury litigation), it is safer to say little or nothing at all.

Once there is a formal inquiry, I expect we will finally get something approaching the "truth" of the matter. We should not be surprised that Bavaria is speaking up, given their own history of litigation issues involving alleged keel failures. I'm sure they want to make it clear that the accident had nothing to do with the boat design or construction, to the extent they are able to do so.
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
paulo - i completely agree with you...
used to do motorcycle races (600 cc) and there it is the same - what is fast, is beautiful!
....
on another note - interesting read here: The relationship between displacement, power and performance in Open 60 design : Owen Clarke Design - Yacht Design and Naval Architects
It is not a question of agreeing, it is an analyses of what happens in what regards sailor' perception regarding what they find beautiful (and why) and I do understand and find beauty in both concepts, the one I called modern and the other I called traditional: I have posted on this thread many designs of Gerard Dijkstra one of the contemporary masters in what regards what I call "traditional" design and I do love his designs as I do love some of Bob Perry designs.

Regarding that Owen and Clark link it is an interesting one but it is more about power versus speed and show that not always the more powerful is the faster at least in what regards solo sailing. No news there, any racer even from the motorsport world knows that: power is just a part of the equation, an important one for sure but not the only one.

The "modern" approach in what regards the search for beauty trough performance shapes is today more widespread in yacht design than the use of traditional shapes and you are right into pointing out that is also the Owen and Clark approach. we can see that not only on their designs but also on this quotes that we find on their site:

"Those who fall in love with practice yet without science are like a sailor who steers a ship without helm or compass, and who never can be certain whither he is going"

Leonardo da Vinci


For all Owen Clarke Design projects, the common denominator is performance, regardless of whether the yacht is a cruising or racing design.

Owen and Clark


Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 01-15-2014 at 07:18 AM.
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Re: "Traditional" approach versus "Modern" approach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
You know the problem relates with the meaning of words, like modern opposed to old when that meaning does not exist regarding art: Modern art does not mean that it is more "modern" than other forms of art namely for instance hiper realism that is pretty much opposed to modern art.

Regarding architecture "modern" is also related with an abstract form of expression, by opposed to some other forms of expression, for instance Pos-modernism, that in fact is not modern since it uses traditional references. Both are contemporary styles.

Regarding NA and since sailboats are imminently functional objects an approach towards functionalism is fundamental. That approach is carried to the limits in what regards "modern" boats while on other contemporary boats, on those that use as reference traditional and classical forms, the functionalist approach is used in what regards the essential "working" parts of a boat but they don't go to the limit in what regards less important (in what regards performance) parts, like cabin design, bow and transom design were traditional shapes can make the difference in what regards the perception of beauty without a significant loss in performance (in what regards cruising).

The key word is the perception of beauty that for a "modern" NA is directed linked to a fundamentalist approach regarding performance (fast is beautiful) while for a "traditional" Na beauty does not exist out of shapes and forms related with tradition.

Pascal Conq, from Finot-Conq made an essay where he developed that concept of beauty ("modern") related with absolute performance. According to this way of viewing things race boats will represent beauty in itself and cruising boats to be beautiful have to follow race boats lines, at least in what is possible, since they have other requirements in what concerns interior height and interior light.

take for instance the design of the new Dehler 46: it is a performance cruiser but it looks like a very sharp racer and therefore is beautiful according to a "modern" perspective of beauty. Of course I am quite sure that the "beauty" of its lines will have no interference in the cruising quality of the interior space that will be luminous and luxurious:



Regards

Paulo
This is a truly beautiful (and modern) boat. JV has been doing incredible work for Dehler lately and the Dehler 46 rivals (for me) the perfect blend of performance and cruisability that we have recently seen in the Jason Ker-designed Sydney GTS43. I expect the Dehler will have more cruising comforts than the more race-oriented Sydney, but place them side by side and you would have the poster boats for modern functional performance cruising design.





These are boats that turn heads when you enter the harbor or marina.

NOTE: Let me quickly add that I'm also a fan of traditional or "classic" designs. For example, I really love the look of the early Cheoy Lee designs of the 1960s and very early 1970's, particularly the Clipper 33.



I believe a Mr. Bob Perry contributed 3 designs to Cheoy Lee in the 1980's, if memory serves (35, 41, 44). Like this 44' beauty:

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