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  #5731  
Old 01-15-2014
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Re: Pogo 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Talking about beauty, one boat that risks to change concepts in what we call beauty, particularly in what regards that bow that looks like it is going to work as projected, increasing performance with very small drag costs.

Pogo 3 teaser - from Pogostructures on Vimeo.



Posted by Voile and voiliers a very interesting comparison between the three mini racers that they have produced. We can see that one of the things that have changed is the size of the main sail, always smaller regarding stay sails. The Pogo 2 is still produced but since 2009 only in the US.



Pogo 650
From 1994 to 2000 : 124 exemplaires
NA : Pierre Rolland
Hull Length : 6,50 m
Beam : 2,97 m
Light Displacement : 1 200 kg
Draft : 1,57 m
Main : 24 m2
Genoa : 18 m2
Spi : 72 m2

Pogo 2
From 2002 to 2009 : 115 exemplaires
NA : Finot-Conq
Hull Length : 6,50 m
Beam : 3,00 m
Light displacement : 980 kg
Draft : 1,60 m
Main : 28 m2
Genoa : 18 m2
Spi : 70 m2

Pogo 3
Since 2014
NA : Guillaume Verdier
Hull Length : 6,50 m
Beam : 3,00 m
Light Displacement : 930 kg
Draft : 1,60 m
Main sail : 26 m2
Genoa : 20 m2
spi : 70 m2

also an interesting interview with Christian Bouroullec, the boss from the Structures Shipyard (Pogo)

Mini de série - Chantier Structures : le Pogo nouveau est arrivé ! - Annonce bateaux - Annonces bateaux - Occasion Bateaux - Occasion Voiliers - Occasion voiles
While not quite so apparent in plan view, when you watch the video you see the influence of David Raison's scow design (747) at 0:23-0:25, from the bow view of the hull. That's where the fullness in the forward section becomes most obvious, though you can also see it in the added curve to the hull shape (compared with the Pogo 2, which appears flatter to me), which presumably increases interior volume.

All in all, a very nice compromise by Verdier, incorporating the proven benefits of a fuller entry and interior volume, with the equally important perfomance characteristics of recent Series designs, such as the pronounced chines. I predict this will be a very fast Series boat that will also make many Proto skippers nervous.
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  #5732  
Old 01-15-2014
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Dehler 46 - Azuree 46

The Dehler 46 and the new Azuree 46 are two of the hottest new performance cruisers that will be around next summer. Let's compare the dimensions:

...........................Dehler 46....................Azuree46

NA.......................Judel / Vrolijk..............Rob Humphreys
Hull Length ...........13,95 m.....................13.99m
LOA.....................14,40 m......................14.04
LWL....................12,40 m.......................12.99m
Beam...................4,31 m........................4.25m
Draft...................2.25/2.75m..................2.2/2.6m
Displacement.........11.2/10,7 t.................10.5T
Ballast / ratio.........3,5t / 33%..................3.98T/38%
Sail Area............... 114.1/117.8m2...........124.5m2
engine................. 39 kW/53 hp................55hp
Price....................261 000 euros..............258 000 euros

Well, as I had noticed when I compared the prices of the Salona 41 and the Dehler 41, they have an inexpensive version, that is alright for cruising, but if you want a boat with better specifications the price goes up rapidly. In fact at the time a top Salona 41 costed the price of a lower range Dehler. We can see it here again.

The 260 000 euros corresponds to the standard version with 11.2T. To be honest I could not figure out if the price of the Azuree included VAT or not (the one of the Dehler does) but the Azuree does not have two versions so that weight regards the 2.6m draft version while to have a Dehler with a similar weight, it will be a much more expensive one.

Besides that for a not much different beam (the Azuree has less 6cm) and not a very different draft (15 cm deeper on the Dehler) the difference in ballast is substantial and that will make the Azuree more powerful than even the "race" version of the Dehler. We can see the reflex of that on the sail area that on the Azuree is 7m2 bigger than in the RC version of the Dehler.

So, I would say that both boats are very interesting but certainly not the Azuree less than the Dehler. Besides all those good numbers the Azuree is also a beautiful boat at a great price:















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Last edited by PCP; 01-15-2014 at 04:09 PM.
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  #5733  
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Re: Pogo 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
While not quite so apparent in plan view, when you watch the video you see the influence of David Raison's scow design (747) at 0:23-0:25, from the bow view of the hull. That's where the fullness in the forward section becomes most obvious, though you can also see it in the added curve to the hull shape (compared with the Pogo 2, which appears flatter to me), which presumably increases interior volume.

All in all, a very nice compromise by Verdier, incorporating the proven benefits of a fuller entry and interior volume, with the equally important perfomance characteristics of recent Series designs, such as the pronounced chines. I predict this will be a very fast Series boat that will also make many Proto skippers nervous.
The first one to design a bow like this was Juan K in a TP 52 years ago, years before Raison, and more like the Pogo3 than the 747.
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  #5734  
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Re: Pogo 3

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Originally Posted by DiasDePlaya View Post
The first one to design a bow like this was Juan K in a TP 52 years ago, years before Raison, and more like the Pogo3 than the 747.
You mean the Team Origin boat? Don't recall how competitive it was on the circuit, but it looks to me very similar to the conventional TP52 design thinking at that time. I thought you were going to call out JuanK's VOR and IMOCA designs, which show clear evidence of the full bow section similar to what Verdier has done in the Pogo 3.

In which case, I would agree with you up to a point. But nobody took the idea as far as Raison did, and I've read various opinions on why or why not such an extreme approach would or wouldn't work in those classes (moot, of course, for the VOR one-designs, where Juank K didn't get the call). But Cheminée Poujolat has that full bow section look to it, without a doubt. In fact, most of the new generation IMOCA 60's have gone that route, including the VPLP boats that dominated the last VG.
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  #5735  
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Rounded bows

There are some considerable differences regarding the jK team Origin TP52 bow and the one from Verdier on the Pogo 3:





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  #5736  
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Lack of band - Request

I have some problems with the thread regarding band space, pictures and videos. Please when someone you quote, if possible, take the videos and the images away and post only the text.

Thanks!
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  #5737  
Old 01-15-2014
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Re: Rounded bows

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
There are some considerable differences regarding the jK team Origin TP52 bow and the one from Verdier on the Pogo 3:
What's the reason behind the fat bow, Paulo?

In extreme form, it kinda reminds me of this:
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Last edited by Classic30; 01-15-2014 at 09:20 PM.
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  #5738  
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Re: Rounded bows

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What's the reason behind the fat bow, Paulo?
...
Yes, I have posted before some older Portuguese sailing boats with rounded bows, in fact I have read in an old treaty that the rounded boats were a big improvement

The rounded bow gives more power to the boat (hull form stability) and in big seas, with the boat running adds buoyancy to the bow preventing it to dig the bow on the waves.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by Faster; 01-15-2014 at 10:32 PM. Reason: fix quote
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  #5739  
Old 01-16-2014
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Re: Rounded bows

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
...
Yes, I have posted before some older Portuguese sailing boats with rounded bows, in fact I have read in an old treaty that the rounded boats were a big improvement

The rounded bow gives more power to the boat (hull form stability) and in big seas, with the boat running adds buoyancy to the bow preventing it to dig the bow on the waves.
Thanks, Paulo. That makes sense to me.

It's interesting to me that NA's now are starting to realise - the hard way - that many of the old ways were not always complete rubbish to be tossed in the bin.. even if the designers from centuries ago did not always completely understand why what they had designed worked.

eg. Apparently the replica of ENDEAVOUR (the ship in my post) was a surprise to many that when she was launched it was discovered she didn't sail like a pig!.. She's since circumnavigated the globe at least once and is apparently happiest in big seas.
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Last edited by Classic30; 01-16-2014 at 02:02 AM.
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  #5740  
Old 01-16-2014
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Re: Rounded bows

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
...
Yes, I have posted before some older Portuguese sailing boats with rounded bows, in fact I have read in an old treaty that the rounded boats were a big improvement

The rounded bow gives more power to the boat (hull form stability) and in big seas, with the boat running adds buoyancy to the bow preventing it to dig the bow on the waves.

Regards

Paulo
... And lifts the bow on a reach to plan earlier...
And on a close haul the bow is less 'dipped in' by the broad stern... The waterlines in a heeled situation is less - how to say - offline... But more in line with the course the boat is going...
There are a lot of merrits to a fat bow, but the main reason is lift to plan...
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