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  #5741  
Old 01-15-2014
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Functionalism and modern art in what regards Naval Architecture:

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Problem is it is not "universal". Folks still buy and build Chippendale furniture. It has timeless beauty and is very functional....Same thing the modern art went elsewhere. ...It has nothing to do with function. ..
..
I guess you did not understood what I meant by Universal. Modern art is rooted in functionalist:

" Functionalism, in architecture, is the principle that architects should design a building based on the purpose of that building....Augustus Welby Pugin wrote that "there should be no features about a building which are not necessary for convenience, construction, or propriety" and "all ornament should consist of enrichment of the essential construction of the building"...The roots of modern architecture lie in the work of the Franco-Swiss architect Le Corbusier and the German architect Mies van der Rohe. Both were functionalists..."

Wikipedia

What is said there is not different in what regards aesthetics in Yacht design, you have just to substitute yacht by building and you will have:

Functionalism that is on the roots of modern yacht design, is the principle that NA should design a sailing yacht based on the purpose of sailing. The design should not be influenced by anything other than necessary for convenience, performance and building. All traditional elements that serve no performance purpose should be eliminated and the beauty of the boat will result exclusively from the search of a better sail performance.

This approach will result in an Universal approach in the sense that what makes a boat sail better and be faster in Australia is not different than what makes a boat faster in Europe or US. This approach is strongly based on a scientific research and uses extensively sail racing as means of improving cruising boats, even if slightly. The designs from the American Cabinets of Reischel & Pugh or Farr will not be different from the ones of the Europeans Judel/Vrolijk, Owen and Clark or Finot/Conq neither different than the work of the South American JK, Soto Acebal or the Australian/NZ designers like Greg Elliott, Bakewell-White and Murray Burns & Dovell.

A traditional approach is not an universal one for the simple reason that the shapes and traditions that are used to "ornament" contemporary sailboats vary widely with regional traditions. That is way Bob Perry talks about an American Yacht design while we can talk about Dutch yacht design when we refer to the boats designed by Gerard Dijkstra.

Regards

Paulo
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  #5742  
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Re: Functionalism and modern art in what regards Naval Architecture:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I guess you did not understood what I meant by Universal. Modern art is rooted in functionalist:

" Functionalism, in architecture, is the principle that architects should design a building based on the purpose of that building....Augustus Welby Pugin wrote that "there should be no features about a building which are not necessary for convenience, construction, or propriety" and "all ornament should consist of enrichment of the essential construction of the building"...The roots of modern architecture lie in the work of the Franco-Swiss architect Le Corbusier and the German architect Mies van der Rohe. Both were functionalists..."

Wikipedia

What is said there is not different in what regards aesthetics in Yacht design, you have just to substitute yacht by building and you will have:

Functionalism that is on the roots of modern yacht design, is the principle that NA should design a sailing yacht based on the purpose of sailing. The design should not be influenced by anything other than necessary for convenience, performance and building. All traditional elements that serve no performance purpose should be eliminated and the beauty of the boat will result exclusively from the search of a better sail performance.

This approach will result in an Universal approach in the sense that what makes a boat sail better and be faster in Australia is not different than what makes a boat faster in Europe or US. This approach is strongly based on a scientific research and uses extensively sail racing as means of improving cruising boats, even if slightly. The designs from the American Cabinets of Reischel & Pugh or Farr will not be different from the ones of the Europeans Judel/Vrolijk, Owen and Clark or Finot/Conq neither different than the work of the South American JK, Soto Acebal or the Australian/NZ designers like Greg Elliott, Bakewell-White and Murray Burns & Dovell.

A traditional approach is not an universal one for the simple reason that the shapes and traditions that are used to "ornament" contemporary sailboats vary widely with regional traditions. That is way Bob Perry talks about an American Yacht design while we can talk about Dutch yacht design when we refer to the boats designed by Gerard Dijkstra.

Regards

Paulo
Any discussion about "Modern" aesthetics is complicated by the fact that the terms "modern", "modernism" and "modernist" are used somewhat differently depending on the area of practice, be it painting, literature, philosophy, architecture, etc. As Paulo notes, within architectural practice, "modern" or "modernist" is closely associated with functionalism ("Form follows function" - Bauhaus), with an emphasis on science and technology in the pursuit of designs optimized for an object's specified use.

In this respect, modernist design tends to minimize any feature - i.e., "ornamentation" - that doesn't contribute to the optimal functionality of the object.

Having said that, even modernist design must make accommodation for considerations that might not be strictly considered "functional" - i.e., the aesthetic tastes of the customer, which are important to his/her sense of satisfaction with the object being designed.

In such cases, you see examples of what we would consider more traditional designs enhanced by contemporary performance-enhancing qualities like high-aspect rudder blades and strut-bulb keel configurations, or the use of carbon fibre in spars and rigging. These are the types of compromises that are frequently made by naval architects in the design of yachts.

Looking at boats like the Dehler 46 and Sydney GTS43, here we see modernist principles influencing almost every aspect of the design, with a premium placed on sailing performance. But even there, we see compromises - e.g., the closed transom on the Dehler 46 - it definitely serves a cruising/comfort purpose, but is probably less optimal from a performance standpoint than the open transom of the Sydney GTS43.
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  #5743  
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Re: Functionalism and modern art in what regards Naval Architecture:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
......
In such cases, you see examples of what we would consider more traditional designs enhanced by contemporary performance-enhancing qualities like high-aspect rudder blades and strut-bulb keel configurations, or the use of carbon fibre in spars and rigging. These are the types of compromises that are frequently made by naval architects in the design of yachts.
..
Taking a "traditional" approach in designing a cruising boat does not mean that on the parts more related with boat performance it is not followed a functionalist perspective but that on the less critical parts in what regards sailing performance an "ornamental" traditional iconography is used to create beauty.

Beauty in this case does not come only from the perfect fulfillment of sail performance but from a mixed way, were performance is more or less compromised by design elements that are there to maintain a traditional language judged indispensable to create beauty.

If a boat designer takes a traditional approach not only on the needed elements to create and maintain its traditional heritage but uses on the critical performance parts (mast, hull, keel and ruder) out-dated and poor performance solutions then he is just designing a poor sailboat and the design quality will be poor. That boat will not be a contemporary design like many of the "traditional" designs are.

Regards

Paulo
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  #5744  
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Pogo 3

Talking about beauty, one boat that risks to change concepts in what we call beauty, particularly in what regards that bow that looks like it is going to work as projected, increasing performance with very small drag costs.

Pogo 3 teaser - from Pogostructures on Vimeo.



Posted by Voile and voiliers a very interesting comparison between the three mini racers that they have produced. We can see that one of the things that have changed is the size of the main sail, always smaller regarding stay sails. The Pogo 2 is still produced but since 2009 only in the US.



Pogo 650
From 1994 to 2000 : 124 exemplaires
NA : Pierre Rolland
Hull Length : 6,50 m
Beam : 2,97 m
Light Displacement : 1 200 kg
Draft : 1,57 m
Main : 24 m2
Genoa : 18 m2
Spi : 72 m2

Pogo 2
From 2002 to 2009 : 115 exemplaires
NA : Finot-Conq
Hull Length : 6,50 m
Beam : 3,00 m
Light displacement : 980 kg
Draft : 1,60 m
Main : 28 m2
Genoa : 18 m2
Spi : 70 m2

Pogo 3
Since 2014
NA : Guillaume Verdier
Hull Length : 6,50 m
Beam : 3,00 m
Light Displacement : 930 kg
Draft : 1,60 m
Main sail : 26 m2
Genoa : 20 m2
spi : 70 m2

also an interesting interview with Christian Bouroullec, the boss from the Structures Shipyard (Pogo)

Mini de série - Chantier Structures : le Pogo nouveau est arrivé ! - Annonce bateaux - Annonces bateaux - Occasion Bateaux - Occasion Voiliers - Occasion voiles
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  #5745  
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Re: Pogo 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Talking about beauty, one boat that risks to change concepts in what we call beauty, particularly in what regards that bow that looks like it is going to work as projected, increasing performance with very small drag costs.

Pogo 3 teaser - from Pogostructures on Vimeo.



Posted by Voile and voiliers a very interesting comparison between the three mini racers that they have produced. We can see that one of the things that have changed is the size of the main sail, always smaller regarding stay sails. The Pogo 2 is still produced but since 2009 only in the US.



Pogo 650
From 1994 to 2000 : 124 exemplaires
NA : Pierre Rolland
Hull Length : 6,50 m
Beam : 2,97 m
Light Displacement : 1 200 kg
Draft : 1,57 m
Main : 24 m2
Genoa : 18 m2
Spi : 72 m2

Pogo 2
From 2002 to 2009 : 115 exemplaires
NA : Finot-Conq
Hull Length : 6,50 m
Beam : 3,00 m
Light displacement : 980 kg
Draft : 1,60 m
Main : 28 m2
Genoa : 18 m2
Spi : 70 m2

Pogo 3
Since 2014
NA : Guillaume Verdier
Hull Length : 6,50 m
Beam : 3,00 m
Light Displacement : 930 kg
Draft : 1,60 m
Main sail : 26 m2
Genoa : 20 m2
spi : 70 m2

also an interesting interview with Christian Bouroullec, the boss from the Structures Shipyard (Pogo)

Mini de série - Chantier Structures : le Pogo nouveau est arrivé ! - Annonce bateaux - Annonces bateaux - Occasion Bateaux - Occasion Voiliers - Occasion voiles
While not quite so apparent in plan view, when you watch the video you see the influence of David Raison's scow design (747) at 0:23-0:25, from the bow view of the hull. That's where the fullness in the forward section becomes most obvious, though you can also see it in the added curve to the hull shape (compared with the Pogo 2, which appears flatter to me), which presumably increases interior volume.

All in all, a very nice compromise by Verdier, incorporating the proven benefits of a fuller entry and interior volume, with the equally important perfomance characteristics of recent Series designs, such as the pronounced chines. I predict this will be a very fast Series boat that will also make many Proto skippers nervous.
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  #5746  
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Dehler 46 - Azuree 46

The Dehler 46 and the new Azuree 46 are two of the hottest new performance cruisers that will be around next summer. Let's compare the dimensions:

...........................Dehler 46....................Azuree46

NA.......................Judel / Vrolijk..............Rob Humphreys
Hull Length ...........13,95 m.....................13.99m
LOA.....................14,40 m......................14.04
LWL....................12,40 m.......................12.99m
Beam...................4,31 m........................4.25m
Draft...................2.25/2.75m..................2.2/2.6m
Displacement.........11.2/10,7 t.................10.5T
Ballast / ratio.........3,5t / 33%..................3.98T/38%
Sail Area............... 114.1/117.8m2...........124.5m2
engine................. 39 kW/53 hp................55hp
Price....................261 000 euros..............258 000 euros

Well, as I had noticed when I compared the prices of the Salona 41 and the Dehler 41, they have an inexpensive version, that is alright for cruising, but if you want a boat with better specifications the price goes up rapidly. In fact at the time a top Salona 41 costed the price of a lower range Dehler. We can see it here again.

The 260 000 euros corresponds to the standard version with 11.2T. To be honest I could not figure out if the price of the Azuree included VAT or not (the one of the Dehler does) but the Azuree does not have two versions so that weight regards the 2.6m draft version while to have a Dehler with a similar weight, it will be a much more expensive one.

Besides that for a not much different beam (the Azuree has less 6cm) and not a very different draft (15 cm deeper on the Dehler) the difference in ballast is substantial and that will make the Azuree more powerful than even the "race" version of the Dehler. We can see the reflex of that on the sail area that on the Azuree is 7m2 bigger than in the RC version of the Dehler.

So, I would say that both boats are very interesting but certainly not the Azuree less than the Dehler. Besides all those good numbers the Azuree is also a beautiful boat at a great price:















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Last edited by PCP; 01-15-2014 at 05:09 PM.
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  #5747  
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Re: Pogo 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
While not quite so apparent in plan view, when you watch the video you see the influence of David Raison's scow design (747) at 0:23-0:25, from the bow view of the hull. That's where the fullness in the forward section becomes most obvious, though you can also see it in the added curve to the hull shape (compared with the Pogo 2, which appears flatter to me), which presumably increases interior volume.

All in all, a very nice compromise by Verdier, incorporating the proven benefits of a fuller entry and interior volume, with the equally important perfomance characteristics of recent Series designs, such as the pronounced chines. I predict this will be a very fast Series boat that will also make many Proto skippers nervous.
The first one to design a bow like this was Juan K in a TP 52 years ago, years before Raison, and more like the Pogo3 than the 747.
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  #5748  
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Re: Pogo 3

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The first one to design a bow like this was Juan K in a TP 52 years ago, years before Raison, and more like the Pogo3 than the 747.
You mean the Team Origin boat? Don't recall how competitive it was on the circuit, but it looks to me very similar to the conventional TP52 design thinking at that time. I thought you were going to call out JuanK's VOR and IMOCA designs, which show clear evidence of the full bow section similar to what Verdier has done in the Pogo 3.

In which case, I would agree with you up to a point. But nobody took the idea as far as Raison did, and I've read various opinions on why or why not such an extreme approach would or wouldn't work in those classes (moot, of course, for the VOR one-designs, where Juank K didn't get the call). But Cheminée Poujolat has that full bow section look to it, without a doubt. In fact, most of the new generation IMOCA 60's have gone that route, including the VPLP boats that dominated the last VG.
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Rounded bows

There are some considerable differences regarding the jK team Origin TP52 bow and the one from Verdier on the Pogo 3:





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Lack of band - Request

I have some problems with the thread regarding band space, pictures and videos. Please when someone you quote, if possible, take the videos and the images away and post only the text.

Thanks!
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