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post #5791 of 6763 Old 01-23-2014 Thread Starter
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European boat of the year: Saphire 27

I had already have posted about this boat and was impressed with its speed, concept and with what the testers said about it...but it seemed that it was only me since the boat did not raised many comments, maybe because it is not a boat designed on the line of Open boats.

It is a Claudio Maletto design, Claudio is a specialist in ORCI so this boat should do very well in compensated, even IRC, probably much better than the Seascape 27.

Because it is built by Delphia and sold by the Internet they have managed to keep the price really down for the quality.

It seems that this was not only the boat where they had more fun sailing as well as the one everybody was in agreement regarding this to be the best boat in its class.

Take a look:

The British from Yachting World:

It is designed for the racing-oriented part of the market, but it also offers the possibility of day sailing or weekend cruising and it proved to be much easier to sail, even with a small than what its sporty looks at first sight suggests.
The design of Claudio Maletto is typical of a modern fast racer… she goes so close to the wind as a witch. Their clever operating concept for pods and blocks, the smooth operation of the large sail plan allows, is another example of good design. Details like these cost money and yet their price appears, taking into consideration the carbon rig and other points, very attractive.


The Dutch from Waterkampioen :

A powerfull sailboat with a modern appearance. The concept behind it is very charming and the rather weak interior finish is partially forgiven by the T-keel and carbon mast that makes it a sports boat, but one easy to sail. And you can tow it behind the car to, to a regatta …

The Norwegians from Seilas:

This is not a typical family cruiser, but will definitely attract adrenaline junkies. Today’s kids like it extreme, and if you want to make a good GoPro video from sailing vacation, this is the right boat. It is not only fun when planing downwind, it also points surprisingly close to the wind.

The Swiss from Marina.ch :

Michael Tobler, a Swiss businessman and racing sailor wanted to create a boat with a different program, a boat that would be as good for racing as to sail with the family and worked the program with the Italian NA, Claudio Maletto. Delphia, the Poland shipyard, built the boat. The result is a compelling mix of great sailing fun and family-friendly ease of use.

The Italians from Fare Vela:

It is a sporty agile eight-meter boat : on the water, easy to handle, even when the wind picks up a boat on which you have not to be an expert to have fun with the big gennaker. With it on the boat starts to plan from 11 to 12 knots. It’s a flexible concept, with the standard version you can participate in races, and if you add some extras, the boat can be turned in a small cruiser with four bunks, galley and toilet. The Saphire is well equipped with a carbon mast, T-Kiel and powerful sail plan. Because the boat has not a backstay it can have a big square-top mainsail. The hull follows a shallow U-frame with pronounced chimes that come from the bow to the transom. It is very easy to handle, at sea and on land. You do not need a crane to launch the boat into the water, and on top of that a well-organized system puts the mast in place.

The Austrians from Yacht Revue :

The perfect compromise between a racer and a Daysailer Cruiser. Main Features: Easy and quick to sail in all conditions, good layout, interesting rig with a powerful mainsail, one-design concept and habitable cabin.


The Danish from BadNyt:

Nice little boat with impressive performance even if is handled carelessly. Below deck no real expansion concept and the seating for the helmsman is uncomfortable. It's great fun to sail this boat mainly due to its easiness, good stability and strong, inspired by catamarans, rig concept. This boat has the potential to be a one class for specific events such as the German Bundesliga or at the Danish Sport Boat League.

The Swedes from Segling :

Buy the Swiss sapphire 27 online, and you'll get it on a trailer delivered to your home. That's the brand new sales concept, but it is also the boat that will put a smile on your face when you sail with it! Regardless of whether you are alone or the whole family , there is fun for all. Vacuum injection process and an electric drive also mean less pollution…

The French from Voile and Voiliers:

A clear victory of the Saphire that it is not so special in itself, but does exactly what it's made to do: a really fast little boat that gives a lot of pleasure to the crew. The hull likes sailing in a light wind and excels with the right breeze. The boat is also easy to trailer and to rig. And you have enough space inside in the boat, although it is rather narrow and that is needed because plenty will want to come as crew. Regatta fun, guaranteed!

The Deutch from Yacht.de:

To win this trophy with the first model it is something that very few builders had managed in the history of European Yacht of the Year and that’s why this victory tells a lot about the Saphires 27: A stunning, light, strong boat that will give plenty of fun on inland lakes or along the coast. It was not surprising that the Saphire sails exceptionally well in light wind, better than most of the larger Performance Cruisers, but she was also very balanced and controlled in gusty 5-6 Beaufort. On the whole: A great boat!





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post #5792 of 6763 Old 01-23-2014 Thread Starter
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Design - Inverted bows

I have been talking about inverted bows on another thread but it is here that it makes sense to discuss them.

I will post some of the stuff I had posted elsewhere. They seem to me the next boat revolution after beam being brought back, resulting in large transoms even in not necessarily beamy boats.

No, they are not a fashion, they have a purpose and that's diminishing wave drag through a better wave penetration. Modern inverted bows were designed to meet strong sea conditions (with significant sized waves) and to be more efficient on those conditions. The inverted bow shape reduces pitch and speed loss in waves diminish slamming and bow impact, reducing stress in that area reducing the probability of damage in extreme weather..

An inverted bow does not result necessarily in a lower buoyancy at the bow. That depends of the bow design and it is possible to have a bigger buoyancy with a wave piercing bow than with a conventional one. The design would have to be a far more complex one but I believe that in the future we will see bows wit a rounded submersed shape, coming backwards and becoming thinner almost till the top where you have to add some kind of wingless to deflect and prevent the water to came rushing backwards. that will have also the advantage to create some lift.

Here, a motorboat with that type of deflectors I was imagining (it seems somebody has already invented it):





That way we can add the advantages of a rounded bow in what regards superior hull form stability and bigger buoyancy, specially needed with big transom boats going close upwind without, the disadvantages of a substantially increase wave drag (upwind) in difficult conditions.

Regarding offshore sailboats the inverted bows were first used on the new generation of racing multihulls namely the trimarans that were designed to beat the absolute solo circumnavigation record. You cannot do that with a sailboat that is not seaworthy since they will cross the worse seas on the planet. I am talking about Thomas Coville and Francis Joyon boats and they have done that successfully, at least Joyon. Coville is at the sea trying to beat Joyon circumnavigation record:





Since then all new built ocean racer trimarans were built with inverted bows:

Here the Prince de Bretagne:



Here Vibac Paprec:



Or here, Banque Populaire:



Many offshore cruising cats use already inverted bows:











and racing offshore monohulls start to use them too:







I bet that in less than two years a substantial number of offshore performance cruisers will be using them too, for a good reason: If well designed they are not a liability in what regards seaworthiness and improve performance. For now they are still very few. This is one of the first performance cruisers with an inverted bow, the beautiful and fast Neo 400:





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Last edited by PCP; 01-23-2014 at 07:16 PM.
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post #5793 of 6763 Old 01-23-2014
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Re: European boat of the year: Saphire 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I had already have posted about this boat and was impressed with its speed, concept and with what the testers said about it...but it seemed that it was only me since the boat did not raised many comments, maybe because it is not a boat designed on the line of Open boats.

It is a Claudio Maletto design, Claudio is a specialist in ORCI so this boat should do very well in compensated, even IRC, probably much better than the Seascape 27.

Because it is built by Delphia and sold by the Internet they have managed to keep the price really down for the quality.

It seems that this was not only the boat where they had more fun sailing as well as the one everybody was in agreement regarding this to be the best boat in its class.

Take a look:

The British from Yachting World:

It is designed for the racing-oriented part of the market, but it also offers the possibility of day sailing or weekend cruising and it proved to be much easier to sail, even with a small than what its sporty looks at first sight suggests.
The design of Claudio Maletto is typical of a modern fast racer… she goes so close to the wind as a witch. Their clever operating concept for pods and blocks, the smooth operation of the large sail plan allows, is another example of good design. Details like these cost money and yet their price appears, taking into consideration the carbon rig and other points, very attractive.


The Dutch from Waterkampioen :

A powerfull sailboat with a modern appearance. The concept behind it is very charming and the rather weak interior finish is partially forgiven by the T-keel and carbon mast that makes it a sports boat, but one easy to sail. And you can tow it behind the car to, to a regatta …

The Norwegians from Seilas:

This is not a typical family cruiser, but will definitely attract adrenaline junkies. Today’s kids like it extreme, and if you want to make a good GoPro video from sailing vacation, this is the right boat. It is not only fun when planing downwind, it also points surprisingly close to the wind.

The Swiss from Marina.ch :

Michael Tobler, a Swiss businessman and racing sailor wanted to create a boat with a different program, a boat that would be as good for racing as to sail with the family and worked the program with the Italian NA, Claudio Maletto. Delphia, the Poland shipyard, built the boat. The result is a compelling mix of great sailing fun and family-friendly ease of use.

The Italians from Fare Vela:

It is a sporty agile eight-meter boat : on the water, easy to handle, even when the wind picks up a boat on which you have not to be an expert to have fun with the big gennaker. With it on the boat starts to plan from 11 to 12 knots. It’s a flexible concept, with the standard version you can participate in races, and if you add some extras, the boat can be turned in a small cruiser with four bunks, galley and toilet. The Saphire is well equipped with a carbon mast, T-Kiel and powerful sail plan. Because the boat has not a backstay it can have a big square-top mainsail. The hull follows a shallow U-frame with pronounced chimes that come from the bow to the transom. It is very easy to handle, at sea and on land. You do not need a crane to launch the boat into the water, and on top of that a well-organized system puts the mast in place.

The Austrians from Yacht Revue :

The perfect compromise between a racer and a Daysailer Cruiser. Main Features: Easy and quick to sail in all conditions, good layout, interesting rig with a powerful mainsail, one-design concept and habitable cabin.


The Danish from BadNyt:

Nice little boat with impressive performance even if is handled carelessly. Below deck no real expansion concept and the seating for the helmsman is uncomfortable. It's great fun to sail this boat mainly due to its easiness, good stability and strong, inspired by catamarans, rig concept. This boat has the potential to be a one class for specific events such as the German Bundesliga or at the Danish Sport Boat League.

The Swedes from Segling :

Buy the Swiss sapphire 27 online, and you'll get it on a trailer delivered to your home. That's the brand new sales concept, but it is also the boat that will put a smile on your face when you sail with it! Regardless of whether you are alone or the whole family , there is fun for all. Vacuum injection process and an electric drive also mean less pollution…

The French from Voile and Voiliers:

A clear victory of the Saphire that it is not so special in itself, but does exactly what it's made to do: a really fast little boat that gives a lot of pleasure to the crew. The hull likes sailing in a light wind and excels with the right breeze. The boat is also easy to trailer and to rig. And you have enough space inside in the boat, although it is rather narrow and that is needed because plenty will want to come as crew. Regatta fun, guaranteed!

The Deutch from Yacht.de:

To win this trophy with the first model it is something that very few builders had managed in the history of European Yacht of the Year and that’s why this victory tells a lot about the Saphires 27: A stunning, light, strong boat that will give plenty of fun on inland lakes or along the coast. It was not surprising that the Saphire sails exceptionally well in light wind, better than most of the larger Performance Cruisers, but she was also very balanced and controlled in gusty 5-6 Beaufort. On the whole: A great boat!
I clicked through the "Design Your Saphire 27" process and came up with a sail away price of about $118,000 USD before shipping to the U.S. East Coast. Add another $3,000 for that, plus U.S. import duties, and the boat will set you back something like $125,000 or so. That would include trailer, sails, electrical, sail / boat covers, marine head / partial bulkhead, and instruments (but no motor). Instinctively that seems like a lot of money to me, though still quite a bit less than a J/88. Pricing the Seascape 27 is harder, since they don't make that information readily available, but as soon as the first boat arrives in the U.S. I hope to find out more. I suspect the two boats are comparably priced.

It's definitely an intriguing boat, but I would choose the Seascape 27 for what I think would be its stronger offshore capabilities. Even though the reviewers feel the Saphire 27 is a very strong boat, I have a high degree of confidence in Sam Manuard.

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post #5794 of 6763 Old 01-23-2014 Thread Starter
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Re: European boat of the year: Saphire 27

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Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
...

It's definitely an intriguing boat, but I would choose the Seascape 27 for what I think would be its stronger offshore capabilities. Even though the reviewers feel the Saphire 27 is a very strong boat, I have a high degree of confidence in Sam Manuard.
Yes, I believe the Seascape 27 would be a better offshore boat even if it seems that the Saphire 27 is remarkably good for a narrow boat but I am not sure if in real time the Seascape will be faster. I guess it will depend on the conditions. Surely faster on a transat or an offshore race downwind but I am pretty sure the Saphire would be faster in a traditional regatta with downwind and upwind legs and definitively faster in light winds. Probably better too in compensated.

Regards

Paulo


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post #5795 of 6763 Old 01-24-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

well - the fastest tri and record holder over 500 m and the nautical mile does not have an inverted bow...
what does that tell us?
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Re: European boat of the year: Saphire 27

I also clicked on options, and arrived at $108k, which I believe is too much for this boat. One thing, when Yacht initially tested the boat, they complained of poor finish quality and too much pressure on the rudder. In the video of the winners, on a different hull, again the comment comes up about finish quality with the comment that those bugs will be ironed out in the future.
I would wait for the future before clicking the "buy now" button.
I was really surprised, that the Django didn't get the nod.
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Oceanis 38

Regarding the Bene 38, i doubt it will enjoy record sales here in the US. From my conversations with brokers, the 38 is not receiving the warm welcome as they had hoped, but the sales for the Oceanis 37 platinum version are doing very well. The high freeboard, and angular, blocky appearance is most likely too "Euro" (yes, Paulo, EURO, not modern or contemporary!!! ) for the US. Also, sailperformance is not an improvement over the O37.
The versatility down below, is what most likely swayed the judges.
I really liked the Winner 9.00 in that category. Would be nice to get the testing notes from the judges for all boats, winner or not.
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post #5798 of 6763 Old 01-24-2014 Thread Starter
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Reversed bows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
well - the fastest tri and record holder over 500 m and the nautical mile does not have an inverted bow...
what does that tell us?
The Hydroptere comes from the past (1994) and it is a design that has been continually upgraded. Both amas (lateral floaters) have already inverted bows and as all new contemporary racing trimarans, the development project previews also an inverted bow on the main hull as well as a rigid wing. As you know the project has run out of funding on the last years and that is what explains the delay in upgrading the boat.

Some pictures, the first one comparing the existent with the project from some years ago and the last one with the last development:







I hope they found the money to go ahead with the new boat that should be miles ahead from the older one. In fact the new boat makes the previous version look quite old

Regards

Paulo


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Re: European boat of the year: Saphire 27

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Originally Posted by bjung View Post
I also clicked on options, and arrived at $108k, which I believe is too much for this boat. One thing, when Yacht initially tested the boat, they complained of poor finish quality and too much pressure on the rudder. In the video of the winners, on a different hull, again the comment comes up about finish quality with the comment that those bugs will be ironed out in the future.
I would wait for the future before clicking the "buy now" button.
I was really surprised, that the Django didn't get the nod.
The Django 6.70 was a remake of a previous boat (new hull) and a boat more limited on the program and sailing potential. The Saphire 27 just blew their minds with the performance in light wind. Look at the video of the boat testing and you will see the boat outsailing everything, including the bigger performance cruisers. The poor finish regards the interior and it is not particular to this boat but common on boats pointing more towards absolute performance.



This type of boats, narrow with a very high B/D ratio are more expensive to build than beamier boats with a lesser B/D ratio. The efforts on the hull due to the ballast are bigger and the hull has to be stronger. The boat also includes a carbon mast top rigging and good sails and all that is very expensive.

I believe the testers new what they were talking about when they made those remarks about the boat having a good price. There is nothing more expensive than top performance

Multitalent Saphire 27 im Test - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin


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Re: Oceanis 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post
Regarding the Bene 38, i doubt it will enjoy record sales here in the US. From my conversations with brokers, the 38 is not receiving the warm welcome as they had hoped, but the sales for the Oceanis 37 platinum version are doing very well. The high freeboard, and angular, blocky appearance is most likely too "Euro" (yes, Paulo, EURO, not modern or contemporary!!! ) for the US. Also, sailperformance is not an improvement over the O37.
The versatility down below, is what most likely swayed the judges.
I really liked the Winner 9.00 in that category. Would be nice to get the testing notes from the judges for all boats, winner or not.
Yes, very contemporary, I would say revolutionary for a mass production boat (as the testers pointed out) and yes I did not expect that the boat would sell well in the US: Too conservative sailors

But that is good, they can sell the old Oceanis 37 in the states while they will sell the 38 on the rest of the world. I believe the boat is going to be a sucess and US sales are not very representative in total sales numbers.





Anyway the Americans need time: When it went out the Oceanis 37 was very modern, a big hit on Europe but not on the States where it took 5 years to get acceptance. I believe the same will happen with the 38.

Regards

Paulo


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Last edited by PCP; 01-24-2014 at 09:08 AM.
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