Interesting Sailboats - Page 581 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree1266Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #5801  
Old 01-22-2014
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,166
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Solo and short crewed racing

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
...

BTW, are you actually attending Dusseldorf this year? If so, have you been able to take a first-hand look at the Seascape 27?
MrP
I guess you missed this post some few days ago:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Not me that have been today at the Dusseldorf Messe that was as good as usual, like the local beer at the AltStadt on that old brewery with an interior all in wood, that makes his own bear. One full day for the boats, two days for the brewery. The beer wins hands down

Tomorrow I will lunch in Kevelaer, a favorite small town with another fantastic brewery/restaurant (I had already dinned there) and it will be it for this year...
.
Yes I had a good look at the Seascape 27 (I even had taken two photos). The boat was next to the Saphire 27, this year's European boat of the year and also an incredibly fast boat. The difference was striking: One maximized to upwind sailing and lighter wind and the other for downwind sailing and stronger winds. Two ways of having very fast boats...but not on the same conditions

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #5802  
Old 01-22-2014
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,166
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Winners of the 2014 European boat of the year award.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robelz View Post
Well, there are few breweries with wooden interior... Uerige? Schumacher? Füchschen? Schlüssel? These are the most famous ones... The "Alt" in Altstadt has nothing to do with the Altbeer. Altstadt means old town while Alt in Altbeer comes from the latin word "altus" which means "high" and refers to the top fermentation (similar to bavarian beer) method. I am pretty sure Wikipedia is wrong here (even the german wiki).

Well, there are no surprises with the EYOTY: They always chose the most boring one...
Yes, I mean the first one, Uerige. I know what means Altstadt and what I said was that the Uerige is on the Altstadt

I love the typical beer from Dusseldorf (the dark bitter one) the one that is called elsewhere India Pale Ale, a funny name since it has nothing to do with the beer being made in India. In fact it is a British one but I doubt that would have come from British to Germany. How is that bear named there? They always ask me if I want the blond or the dark

I don't agree with you regarding them choosing always the more boring ones: Last year the performance cruiser was the Pogo 12.50 and the Luxury cruiser the Yt 13.98, the two most exciting yachts on each category.

I understand their choice and even agree with it but as I have said it seems to me that a category is missing, one that separates performance cruisers from top racers with cruising potential.

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 01-22-2014 at 10:13 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #5803  
Old 01-23-2014
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,166
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Morozov

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
yeah, interesting if true...
still - there is something not kosher with the traveler being screwed to the transom - how is that supposed to work on deep reaches?
the two winches on either side directly in front of the helm is also something not very practical, especially in this configuration where the inner winch is rendered useless because the linefeed is blocked by either the helm or the other winch...

and have a look at the interior - do you see any available space for a fridge?

i know these are just rough renders but it looks weird...

some images of the soler 35FC which is build at the moment:
Morozov Yachts: Soler-35 Fast Cruiser Hull No.1
That in fact is not a new brand but a kind of auto promotion based on a design series by Morozov, a Russian NA. He had been posting many designs on internet but his designs were not turned in reality many times. His more known and significant work (made real) has nothing new, a motorsailor, kind of "Fisher" style and Atoa, a high latitude sailboat,



not bad but pretty banal (underbody and hull) that took ages to sell and was announced for ages on the internet and magazines. I see also a huge motor yacht (that I didn't new off) and that seems nice.

Morozov Yachts custom yachts for unlimited cruising

Regarding the new Soler series, they are based on 40 class boats but with some oddities and some design that I really don't think it fits, like a 40class boat with a cat cabin that increases windage a lot. Those high cabins are needed on cats but not on monohulls and I don't understand why he uses them on those designs. Even for what he purposed he did not need to have a sopreminent cabin, look for instance for the RM line.

The only one that is actually being made is the 35 and regarding that one I find the hull design too fat on the middle section and as I said, the overall design ugly and out of proportion.

Morozov Yachts: SOLER-35 FC Fast Cruiser

Morozov Yachts: Soler-35 Fast Cruiser Hull No.1

Some of the other Morozov designs, some much more interesting than the Soler series appear now under the name of Teixido & Harrold (including the Soler) but his name never appears there????. I had saw some of those designs posted years ago under the name of Morozov. Take a looK:

teixido_/) harrold yacht design and engineering

Bottom point: some really nice designs (not the Soler) but no racing experience nor testing on those hulls so I would reserve my opinion about its effectiveness. Nice drawings means not necessarily efficient hulls but I would say that Morozov deserved a better chance to prove his ideas. Not so easy in Russia

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 01-23-2014 at 01:03 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #5804  
Old 01-23-2014
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 681
Thanks: 5
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Rep Power: 2
robelz is on a distinguished road
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
funny - the two tris on their record attempt are right now almost side by side...
22°03 N 24°19 E heading 209° doing 27.4 knts for sobedo
22°06 N 23°02 E heading 208° doing 23.2 knts for prince de bretagne as of 09:00 hrs today.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #5805  
Old 01-23-2014
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,166
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
European boat of the year: Saphire 27

I had already have posted about this boat and was impressed with its speed, concept and with what the testers said about it...but it seemed that it was only me since the boat did not raised many comments, maybe because it is not a boat designed on the line of Open boats.

It is a Claudio Maletto design, Claudio is a specialist in ORCI so this boat should do very well in compensated, even IRC, probably much better than the Seascape 27.

Because it is built by Delphia and sold by the Internet they have managed to keep the price really down for the quality.

It seems that this was not only the boat where they had more fun sailing as well as the one everybody was in agreement regarding this to be the best boat in its class.

Take a look:

The British from Yachting World:

It is designed for the racing-oriented part of the market, but it also offers the possibility of day sailing or weekend cruising and it proved to be much easier to sail, even with a small than what its sporty looks at first sight suggests.
The design of Claudio Maletto is typical of a modern fast racer… she goes so close to the wind as a witch. Their clever operating concept for pods and blocks, the smooth operation of the large sail plan allows, is another example of good design. Details like these cost money and yet their price appears, taking into consideration the carbon rig and other points, very attractive.


The Dutch from Waterkampioen :

A powerfull sailboat with a modern appearance. The concept behind it is very charming and the rather weak interior finish is partially forgiven by the T-keel and carbon mast that makes it a sports boat, but one easy to sail. And you can tow it behind the car to, to a regatta …

The Norwegians from Seilas:

This is not a typical family cruiser, but will definitely attract adrenaline junkies. Today’s kids like it extreme, and if you want to make a good GoPro video from sailing vacation, this is the right boat. It is not only fun when planing downwind, it also points surprisingly close to the wind.

The Swiss from Marina.ch :

Michael Tobler, a Swiss businessman and racing sailor wanted to create a boat with a different program, a boat that would be as good for racing as to sail with the family and worked the program with the Italian NA, Claudio Maletto. Delphia, the Poland shipyard, built the boat. The result is a compelling mix of great sailing fun and family-friendly ease of use.

The Italians from Fare Vela:

It is a sporty agile eight-meter boat : on the water, easy to handle, even when the wind picks up a boat on which you have not to be an expert to have fun with the big gennaker. With it on the boat starts to plan from 11 to 12 knots. It’s a flexible concept, with the standard version you can participate in races, and if you add some extras, the boat can be turned in a small cruiser with four bunks, galley and toilet. The Saphire is well equipped with a carbon mast, T-Kiel and powerful sail plan. Because the boat has not a backstay it can have a big square-top mainsail. The hull follows a shallow U-frame with pronounced chimes that come from the bow to the transom. It is very easy to handle, at sea and on land. You do not need a crane to launch the boat into the water, and on top of that a well-organized system puts the mast in place.

The Austrians from Yacht Revue :

The perfect compromise between a racer and a Daysailer Cruiser. Main Features: Easy and quick to sail in all conditions, good layout, interesting rig with a powerful mainsail, one-design concept and habitable cabin.


The Danish from BadNyt:

Nice little boat with impressive performance even if is handled carelessly. Below deck no real expansion concept and the seating for the helmsman is uncomfortable. It's great fun to sail this boat mainly due to its easiness, good stability and strong, inspired by catamarans, rig concept. This boat has the potential to be a one class for specific events such as the German Bundesliga or at the Danish Sport Boat League.

The Swedes from Segling :

Buy the Swiss sapphire 27 online, and you'll get it on a trailer delivered to your home. That's the brand new sales concept, but it is also the boat that will put a smile on your face when you sail with it! Regardless of whether you are alone or the whole family , there is fun for all. Vacuum injection process and an electric drive also mean less pollution…

The French from Voile and Voiliers:

A clear victory of the Saphire that it is not so special in itself, but does exactly what it's made to do: a really fast little boat that gives a lot of pleasure to the crew. The hull likes sailing in a light wind and excels with the right breeze. The boat is also easy to trailer and to rig. And you have enough space inside in the boat, although it is rather narrow and that is needed because plenty will want to come as crew. Regatta fun, guaranteed!

The Deutch from Yacht.de:

To win this trophy with the first model it is something that very few builders had managed in the history of European Yacht of the Year and that’s why this victory tells a lot about the Saphires 27: A stunning, light, strong boat that will give plenty of fun on inland lakes or along the coast. It was not surprising that the Saphire sails exceptionally well in light wind, better than most of the larger Performance Cruisers, but she was also very balanced and controlled in gusty 5-6 Beaufort. On the whole: A great boat!



__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #5806  
Old 01-23-2014
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,166
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Design - Inverted bows

I have been talking about inverted bows on another thread but it is here that it makes sense to discuss them.

I will post some of the stuff I had posted elsewhere. They seem to me the next boat revolution after beam being brought back, resulting in large transoms even in not necessarily beamy boats.

No, they are not a fashion, they have a purpose and that's diminishing wave drag through a better wave penetration. Modern inverted bows were designed to meet strong sea conditions (with significant sized waves) and to be more efficient on those conditions. The inverted bow shape reduces pitch and speed loss in waves diminish slamming and bow impact, reducing stress in that area reducing the probability of damage in extreme weather..

An inverted bow does not result necessarily in a lower buoyancy at the bow. That depends of the bow design and it is possible to have a bigger buoyancy with a wave piercing bow than with a conventional one. The design would have to be a far more complex one but I believe that in the future we will see bows wit a rounded submersed shape, coming backwards and becoming thinner almost till the top where you have to add some kind of wingless to deflect and prevent the water to came rushing backwards. that will have also the advantage to create some lift.

Here, a motorboat with that type of deflectors I was imagining (it seems somebody has already invented it):





That way we can add the advantages of a rounded bow in what regards superior hull form stability and bigger buoyancy, specially needed with big transom boats going close upwind without, the disadvantages of a substantially increase wave drag (upwind) in difficult conditions.

Regarding offshore sailboats the inverted bows were first used on the new generation of racing multihulls namely the trimarans that were designed to beat the absolute solo circumnavigation record. You cannot do that with a sailboat that is not seaworthy since they will cross the worse seas on the planet. I am talking about Thomas Coville and Francis Joyon boats and they have done that successfully, at least Joyon. Coville is at the sea trying to beat Joyon circumnavigation record:





Since then all new built ocean racer trimarans were built with inverted bows:

Here the Prince de Bretagne:



Here Vibac Paprec:



Or here, Banque Populaire:



Many offshore cruising cats use already inverted bows:











and racing offshore monohulls start to use them too:







I bet that in less than two years a substantial number of offshore performance cruisers will be using them too, for a good reason: If well designed they are not a liability in what regards seaworthiness and improve performance. For now they are still very few. This is one of the first performance cruisers with an inverted bow, the beautiful and fast Neo 400:



__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 01-23-2014 at 07:16 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #5807  
Old 01-23-2014
MrPelicano's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Western Connecticut, USA
Posts: 719
Thanks: 10
Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts
Rep Power: 3
MrPelicano is on a distinguished road
Re: European boat of the year: Saphire 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I had already have posted about this boat and was impressed with its speed, concept and with what the testers said about it...but it seemed that it was only me since the boat did not raised many comments, maybe because it is not a boat designed on the line of Open boats.

It is a Claudio Maletto design, Claudio is a specialist in ORCI so this boat should do very well in compensated, even IRC, probably much better than the Seascape 27.

Because it is built by Delphia and sold by the Internet they have managed to keep the price really down for the quality.

It seems that this was not only the boat where they had more fun sailing as well as the one everybody was in agreement regarding this to be the best boat in its class.

Take a look:

The British from Yachting World:

It is designed for the racing-oriented part of the market, but it also offers the possibility of day sailing or weekend cruising and it proved to be much easier to sail, even with a small than what its sporty looks at first sight suggests.
The design of Claudio Maletto is typical of a modern fast racer… she goes so close to the wind as a witch. Their clever operating concept for pods and blocks, the smooth operation of the large sail plan allows, is another example of good design. Details like these cost money and yet their price appears, taking into consideration the carbon rig and other points, very attractive.


The Dutch from Waterkampioen :

A powerfull sailboat with a modern appearance. The concept behind it is very charming and the rather weak interior finish is partially forgiven by the T-keel and carbon mast that makes it a sports boat, but one easy to sail. And you can tow it behind the car to, to a regatta …

The Norwegians from Seilas:

This is not a typical family cruiser, but will definitely attract adrenaline junkies. Today’s kids like it extreme, and if you want to make a good GoPro video from sailing vacation, this is the right boat. It is not only fun when planing downwind, it also points surprisingly close to the wind.

The Swiss from Marina.ch :

Michael Tobler, a Swiss businessman and racing sailor wanted to create a boat with a different program, a boat that would be as good for racing as to sail with the family and worked the program with the Italian NA, Claudio Maletto. Delphia, the Poland shipyard, built the boat. The result is a compelling mix of great sailing fun and family-friendly ease of use.

The Italians from Fare Vela:

It is a sporty agile eight-meter boat : on the water, easy to handle, even when the wind picks up a boat on which you have not to be an expert to have fun with the big gennaker. With it on the boat starts to plan from 11 to 12 knots. It’s a flexible concept, with the standard version you can participate in races, and if you add some extras, the boat can be turned in a small cruiser with four bunks, galley and toilet. The Saphire is well equipped with a carbon mast, T-Kiel and powerful sail plan. Because the boat has not a backstay it can have a big square-top mainsail. The hull follows a shallow U-frame with pronounced chimes that come from the bow to the transom. It is very easy to handle, at sea and on land. You do not need a crane to launch the boat into the water, and on top of that a well-organized system puts the mast in place.

The Austrians from Yacht Revue :

The perfect compromise between a racer and a Daysailer Cruiser. Main Features: Easy and quick to sail in all conditions, good layout, interesting rig with a powerful mainsail, one-design concept and habitable cabin.


The Danish from BadNyt:

Nice little boat with impressive performance even if is handled carelessly. Below deck no real expansion concept and the seating for the helmsman is uncomfortable. It's great fun to sail this boat mainly due to its easiness, good stability and strong, inspired by catamarans, rig concept. This boat has the potential to be a one class for specific events such as the German Bundesliga or at the Danish Sport Boat League.

The Swedes from Segling :

Buy the Swiss sapphire 27 online, and you'll get it on a trailer delivered to your home. That's the brand new sales concept, but it is also the boat that will put a smile on your face when you sail with it! Regardless of whether you are alone or the whole family , there is fun for all. Vacuum injection process and an electric drive also mean less pollution…

The French from Voile and Voiliers:

A clear victory of the Saphire that it is not so special in itself, but does exactly what it's made to do: a really fast little boat that gives a lot of pleasure to the crew. The hull likes sailing in a light wind and excels with the right breeze. The boat is also easy to trailer and to rig. And you have enough space inside in the boat, although it is rather narrow and that is needed because plenty will want to come as crew. Regatta fun, guaranteed!

The Deutch from Yacht.de:

To win this trophy with the first model it is something that very few builders had managed in the history of European Yacht of the Year and that’s why this victory tells a lot about the Saphires 27: A stunning, light, strong boat that will give plenty of fun on inland lakes or along the coast. It was not surprising that the Saphire sails exceptionally well in light wind, better than most of the larger Performance Cruisers, but she was also very balanced and controlled in gusty 5-6 Beaufort. On the whole: A great boat!
I clicked through the "Design Your Saphire 27" process and came up with a sail away price of about $118,000 USD before shipping to the U.S. East Coast. Add another $3,000 for that, plus U.S. import duties, and the boat will set you back something like $125,000 or so. That would include trailer, sails, electrical, sail / boat covers, marine head / partial bulkhead, and instruments (but no motor). Instinctively that seems like a lot of money to me, though still quite a bit less than a J/88. Pricing the Seascape 27 is harder, since they don't make that information readily available, but as soon as the first boat arrives in the U.S. I hope to find out more. I suspect the two boats are comparably priced.

It's definitely an intriguing boat, but I would choose the Seascape 27 for what I think would be its stronger offshore capabilities. Even though the reviewers feel the Saphire 27 is a very strong boat, I have a high degree of confidence in Sam Manuard.
__________________
We deal in lead, friend.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #5808  
Old 01-23-2014
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,166
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: European boat of the year: Saphire 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
...

It's definitely an intriguing boat, but I would choose the Seascape 27 for what I think would be its stronger offshore capabilities. Even though the reviewers feel the Saphire 27 is a very strong boat, I have a high degree of confidence in Sam Manuard.
Yes, I believe the Seascape 27 would be a better offshore boat even if it seems that the Saphire 27 is remarkably good for a narrow boat but I am not sure if in real time the Seascape will be faster. I guess it will depend on the conditions. Surely faster on a transat or an offshore race downwind but I am pretty sure the Saphire would be faster in a traditional regatta with downwind and upwind legs and definitively faster in light winds. Probably better too in compensated.

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #5809  
Old 01-24-2014
capt vimes's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 611
Thanks: 7
Thanked 16 Times in 16 Posts
Rep Power: 1
capt vimes is on a distinguished road
Re: Interesting Sailboats

well - the fastest tri and record holder over 500 m and the nautical mile does not have an inverted bow...
what does that tell us?
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #5810  
Old 01-24-2014
bjung's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Blue Ridge
Posts: 472
Thanks: 5
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 6
bjung is on a distinguished road
Re: European boat of the year: Saphire 27

I also clicked on options, and arrived at $108k, which I believe is too much for this boat. One thing, when Yacht initially tested the boat, they complained of poor finish quality and too much pressure on the rudder. In the video of the winners, on a different hull, again the comment comes up about finish quality with the comment that those bugs will be ironed out in the future.
I would wait for the future before clicking the "buy now" button.
I was really surprised, that the Django didn't get the nod.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 6 (0 members and 6 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cruising sailboats for sale welch Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 10 04-25-2012 05:20 PM
THE Yacht Builder List T37Chef Boat Review and Purchase Forum 26 07-08-2011 05:51 AM
Noob wonderings and questions about sailing, life at sail and sailboats Vans General Discussion (sailing related) 49 06-20-2011 12:18 AM
A List of ALL sailboats made with layouts? Myblueheaven Boat Review and Purchase Forum 8 10-08-2010 11:32 AM
Failure to Navigate - interesting post on Panbo Blog & from the NewsReader Mass Bay Sailors 0 12-11-2006 06:15 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:35 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.