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  #5811  
Old 01-24-2014
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Oceanis 38

Regarding the Bene 38, i doubt it will enjoy record sales here in the US. From my conversations with brokers, the 38 is not receiving the warm welcome as they had hoped, but the sales for the Oceanis 37 platinum version are doing very well. The high freeboard, and angular, blocky appearance is most likely too "Euro" (yes, Paulo, EURO, not modern or contemporary!!! ) for the US. Also, sailperformance is not an improvement over the O37.
The versatility down below, is what most likely swayed the judges.
I really liked the Winner 9.00 in that category. Would be nice to get the testing notes from the judges for all boats, winner or not.
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  #5812  
Old 01-24-2014
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Reversed bows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
well - the fastest tri and record holder over 500 m and the nautical mile does not have an inverted bow...
what does that tell us?
The Hydroptere comes from the past (1994) and it is a design that has been continually upgraded. Both amas (lateral floaters) have already inverted bows and as all new contemporary racing trimarans, the development project previews also an inverted bow on the main hull as well as a rigid wing. As you know the project has run out of funding on the last years and that is what explains the delay in upgrading the boat.

Some pictures, the first one comparing the existent with the project from some years ago and the last one with the last development:







I hope they found the money to go ahead with the new boat that should be miles ahead from the older one. In fact the new boat makes the previous version look quite old

Regards

Paulo
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  #5813  
Old 01-24-2014
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Re: European boat of the year: Saphire 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post
I also clicked on options, and arrived at $108k, which I believe is too much for this boat. One thing, when Yacht initially tested the boat, they complained of poor finish quality and too much pressure on the rudder. In the video of the winners, on a different hull, again the comment comes up about finish quality with the comment that those bugs will be ironed out in the future.
I would wait for the future before clicking the "buy now" button.
I was really surprised, that the Django didn't get the nod.
The Django 6.70 was a remake of a previous boat (new hull) and a boat more limited on the program and sailing potential. The Saphire 27 just blew their minds with the performance in light wind. Look at the video of the boat testing and you will see the boat outsailing everything, including the bigger performance cruisers. The poor finish regards the interior and it is not particular to this boat but common on boats pointing more towards absolute performance.



This type of boats, narrow with a very high B/D ratio are more expensive to build than beamier boats with a lesser B/D ratio. The efforts on the hull due to the ballast are bigger and the hull has to be stronger. The boat also includes a carbon mast top rigging and good sails and all that is very expensive.

I believe the testers new what they were talking about when they made those remarks about the boat having a good price. There is nothing more expensive than top performance

Multitalent Saphire 27 im Test - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin
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  #5814  
Old 01-24-2014
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Re: Oceanis 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post
Regarding the Bene 38, i doubt it will enjoy record sales here in the US. From my conversations with brokers, the 38 is not receiving the warm welcome as they had hoped, but the sales for the Oceanis 37 platinum version are doing very well. The high freeboard, and angular, blocky appearance is most likely too "Euro" (yes, Paulo, EURO, not modern or contemporary!!! ) for the US. Also, sailperformance is not an improvement over the O37.
The versatility down below, is what most likely swayed the judges.
I really liked the Winner 9.00 in that category. Would be nice to get the testing notes from the judges for all boats, winner or not.
Yes, very contemporary, I would say revolutionary for a mass production boat (as the testers pointed out) and yes I did not expect that the boat would sell well in the US: Too conservative sailors

But that is good, they can sell the old Oceanis 37 in the states while they will sell the 38 on the rest of the world. I believe the boat is going to be a sucess and US sales are not very representative in total sales numbers.





Anyway the Americans need time: When it went out the Oceanis 37 was very modern, a big hit on Europe but not on the States where it took 5 years to get acceptance. I believe the same will happen with the 38.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 01-24-2014 at 09:08 AM.
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  #5815  
Old 01-24-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo:
I find your comment that a wave piercing type bow can have more volume forward for a given LOA (I assume) very interesting. Could you please demonstrate that in some definitive manner. Because, I've been thinking about that since you posted the comment and I just can't see how it works without going to some silly distorted shape.

What do you have in mind? And you can skip the vague generalities and stereotyping.
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Last edited by bobperry; 01-24-2014 at 09:59 AM.
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  #5816  
Old 01-24-2014
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Re: Reversed bows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The Hydroptere comes from the past (1994) and it is a design that has been continually upgraded. Both amas (lateral floaters) have already inverted bows and as all new contemporary racing trimarans, the development project previews also an inverted bow on the main hull as well as a rigid wing. As you know the project has run out of funding on the last years and that is what explains the delay in upgrading the boat.

Some pictures, the first one comparing the existent with the project from some years ago and the last one with the last development:

I hope they found the money to go ahead with the new boat that should be miles ahead from the older one. In fact the new boat makes the previous version look quite old

Regards

Paulo
oh - i hope that they get their fundings as well... incredible what they achieved!
btw - their amas look like they were taken directly from some waterplane and screwed to a slender monohull...
and please do not get me wrong - while i see the merits of wave piercing bows in race boats, i do not see them in cruisers...
as mentioned in the other thread, without massive water ballast, all those ocean racing monos are prone for a nose dive - and i think you cannot disagree with that.
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  #5817  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:
I find your comment that a wave piercing type bow can have more volume forward for a given LOA (I assume) very interesting. Could you please demonstrate that in some definitive manner. Because, I've been thinking about that since you posted the comment and I just can't see how it works without going to some silly distorted shape.

What do you have in mind? And you can skip the vague generalities and stereotyping.
Bob maybe I did not have been clear and its good that you ask since it helps clarification. I did not mean that regarding LWL but regarding Hull length that is normally measure at the deck (well it seems not anymore). What happens his that when an inverted bow is used on a modern boat, hull length at the deck level is not reduced but the bow, instead of coming down almost vertically or very slightly backwards, extends itself forward at water level. that results in an increased volume.

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  #5818  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo:
I think you are confusing LOD Length On Deck with LOA Length Over All.

As I see it:
LOA is just that and it doesnt matter what you do to the bow.
LOD would be effected by how the bow is raked.
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  #5819  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:
I think you are confusing LOD Length On Deck with LOA Length Over All.

As I see it:
LOA is just that and it doesnt matter what you do to the bow.
LOD would be effected by how the bow is raked.
Here the most used dimensions regarding lenght are Hull Length, LOA and LWL.

The Hull length is not necessarily the LOD since many times the transom is bigger than the deck. What I mean is that when you use an inverted bow the Hull lenght that normally is measured from the beginning of the bow on the deck (where the stay is fixed) will not be measured from there anymore but from the forward tip of the bow, even if for design purposes, regarding the deck, rig and boat interior what counts is LOD or the interior space in the case of a very inclined bow.

For a given purpose you will not be designing a smaller boat on the deck and interior space when using an inverted bow instead of a vertical or slightly inclined one, so in fact you will get more buoyancy using an inverted one.

This was what I meant to say. Of course if you maintain hull length you will have not only less buoyancy on the bow but also a smaller boat not only on LOD but also in interior volume and space and what makes sense when talking about a similar sized boat is interior space not LOA.

Better with a design. Here we have the same boat that has originally an inverted bow:



If a more traditional bow was used the bow buoyancy would be smaller for the same LOA:



Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 01-24-2014 at 12:31 PM.
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  #5820  
Old 01-24-2014
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Re: European boat of the year: Saphire 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The Django 6.70 was a remake of a previous boat (new hull) and a boat more limited on the program and sailing potential. The Saphire 27 just blew their minds with the performance in light wind. Look at the video of the boat testing and you will see the boat outsailing everything, including the bigger performance cruisers. The poor finish regards the interior and it is not particular to this boat but common on boats pointing more towards absolute performance.

This type of boats, narrow with a very high B/D ratio are more expensive to build than beamier boats with a lesser B/D ratio. The efforts on the hull due to the ballast are bigger and the hull has to be stronger. The boat also includes a carbon mast top rigging and good sails and all that is very expensive.

I believe the testers new what they were talking about when they made those remarks about the boat having a good price. There is nothing more expensive than top performance

Multitalent Saphire 27 im Test - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas größtem Yacht Magazin
It would be interesting to see a performance comparison between the Saphire 27 and the J/88, as the boats are less dissimilar than the Saphire 27 and Seascape 27. While the J/88 is a slightly bigger boat, both designs appear optimized for all-around conditions. I don't have time right now to compare the numbers, but I bring it up primarily because the price for a J/88 is quite a bit higher than the Saphire 27, and it doesn't have a lifting keel, making transport and storage more of a hassle.

I suppose we just need to get used to the fact that the price of high performance boats will continue to rise, just like everything else (except most peoples' salaries, which in the U.S. continue to shrink). In the EU, one must deal with VAT, as well, which makes things even more challenging.

One alternative is to shift construction to China and other low-cost countries. But then, I think it is very important to maintain a yacht building industry in Europe (and the U.S., of course). And building quality boats requires a great deal of skill. And people with such skills ought be compensated properly, in my opinion (with all due respect to skilled boat builders in China and Taiwan).
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