Interesting Sailboats - Page 583 - SailNet Community
 1269Likes
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #5821 of 6763 Old 01-25-2014 Thread Starter
PCP
Senior Member
 
PCP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,201
Thanks: 21
Thanked 103 Times in 86 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:
I'd love to know the thinking about starting the chine so far forward. I have my own ideas but I don't trust them. Yet.
I would not look a try to understand that based only based on functionality in what regards sail performance since that hull is a compromise (a good one) that has also to do with the building material and building technique (plywood and epoxy). Here a better picture of the forward section:



This is a hull based on open boats concept and with a large transom. I would risk to say that in this case the main objective is to deflect spray (keeping the deck free of water) and create some lift on the bow area when the boat is planing downwind (the boat is designed to plan at something like 16/20K downwind).

Bur for a better analyse of this type of hulls the best is to look to the best that is done at the moment, the Pogo40 S3 designed by Verdier. It is a race boat, very light and therefore the hull is less deep but we can see that the chines also begin quite forward:









It seems to me that the finality is the same and in this case also connected with the big asymmetry of this hull while sailing upwind. Probably that chine so forward is studied also to give directional stability to the boat and create a "groove" at the more efficient angle of heel when the boat is sailing upwind.

These boats are solo boats and therefore designed to be sailed on autopilot at high speed and near the limit and anything that can contribute to an easier boat to sail and that doesn't affect performance in a significant way is welcome and can be a performance advantage.

I think you are going to like this video:



This is an Akilaria 950, a race solo boat that is at midway between a mini racer and a Class40. The guy filmed the underbody while the boat is sailing upwind. We can see that almost half of the hull bottom is out of the water (with a low heeling angle) and that the immersed part is a very narrow one even if the boat has a huge beam. Pity he had not done the same at the bow

regards

Paulo


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 01-25-2014 at 07:16 AM.
PCP is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #5822 of 6763 Old 01-25-2014 Thread Starter
PCP
Senior Member
 
PCP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,201
Thanks: 21
Thanked 103 Times in 86 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Bavaria Easy 9.7...easy for 49 950 .

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
...
Nice review of the fareast and sf3600 in the recent issue Bob! now if I could afford the 3600, or the 349........Id be a happy camper. THen again, I brought home a "Showboat" rag from work......spouse says something to effect these boats are in a different league.......a mere 14-15Mil US$ for one of the sailboats listed.....mid 100' arena......hmmmmmmm

Marty
Marty the 3600 is more expensive than the 349 and it is a top racer with a quite naked interior, but the 349 is just what you want trust me. I saw the boat in Dusseldorf and I thought in you. Probably you have pissed the Jeanneau guys so much about having a big head on a small boat with separated shower and all that they have made it just for you

It seemed a great boat to me, way better than the 379 and as good as the 409 in what regards design with just a little snag. I will post about it soon.

But let me tell you that if you don't have the money for it makes not sense to wait for years but more sense in buying the "new" Bavaria Easy 9.7, a good boat that now costs here 49 950 including sails.

"Daysailer, Weekender or Fun Cruiser, whatever you may call the BAVARIA EASY 9.7, she concentrates only upon the essentials. Her open stern, the spacious cockpit and the tidy deck layout make the handling of the BAVARIA EASY 9.7 simple for single or double handed crews precisely and efficient, just easy. The helmsman can comfortably reach the winches for the genoa which makes manoeuvring become an easy game.

Below decks the spacious atmosphere feels like a 37-foot yacht. A wide and light flooded saloon gives a loft feel with open views. Big bunks in the stern and bow, a coffee table in the saloon, a small galley for tasty snacks occasionally and an easy-care bathroom unit which is part of the basic setup make it easy for either on a long or only short week-end trip.





An impressive base price for the BAVARIA EASY 9.7 of only 49,950 Euros excluding tax. The Easy Living package is also available for 6,590 Euros excluding taxes and includes additional practical equipment. Besides the cockpit table, a transom shower is also fitted in the cockpit. A fridge, holding tank, a 240v shore power connection along with a hot shower in the bathroom nicely round up the Easy Living package. "


Bavaria Yachtbau: BAVARIA EASY 9.7 ? 49.950,- ? excluding tax ? That?s why I?m easy!

The boat is a Bavaria answer to the Hanse Varianta series and it is quite interesting, a kind of Bavaria 33 (Farr designed) reduced to the essentials, but lighter and therefore faster.

you guys keep saying that new boats are expensive...well, this one (or the Varianta 37) are not and are also great sailing boats. The Bavaria 33 was already a lot of boat for the money (for more 20 000 euros) now the price of the new version is just an EASY one

Here a very nice comparative test between the Bavaria 33 and the Hanse 345

Movie:

Bavaria Cruiser 33 gegen Hanse 345 - Yacht TV - Segel Videos von Europas grtem Yacht Magazin




A boat test:

http://www.farrdesign.com/reviews/67...ay_Feb2013.pdf

In fact I like more the new version: It is lighter, it has not that big swimming platform, featuring an open transom (that I find more attractive) and has not that strange system with the mainsheet line passing trough the top of the cockpit table. The table is out and the mainsail line goes to the cockpit deck were it will be easy to add a traveler.

I don't have a fixed cockpit table on my boat and find out that a removable small teak garden table does very well the job for a fraction of the price and leaving the cockpit uncluttered when stored.


Regards

Paulo


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 01-25-2014 at 08:19 AM.
PCP is offline  
post #5823 of 6763 Old 01-25-2014 Thread Starter
PCP
Senior Member
 
PCP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,201
Thanks: 21
Thanked 103 Times in 86 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
European boat of the year 2014: Contest 42cs

The last boat (but not least) that won a award was the Contest 42 Cs and I cannot be happier with the choice, firstly because I am sure it is a great boat and secondly because it marks the return of Contest to the “affordable” market.

Contest is still today one of the cruisers that is more searched in Europe as an old boat in the used market. The boats, then designed by Dick Zaal, had a very good and deserved reputation in what regards quality and seaworthiness, only comparable today with Halberg Rassy. Then they changed to the big yacht market and stopped to make “small” yachts, being the smaller in the line a 45 footer and are more known by big yachts (bigger than 50ft) that very few can afford.

The 42 CS, a Georg Nissen design, like the others, seems to point to a return to his first market, the one of smaller sailboats. Not that the 42 is an inexpensive boat, probably the prices are similar to the ones of Halberg Rassy, but the quality is not inferior.

This one, with the Saphire 27 were the two boats that deserved a consensual opinion as being the best in their class. It is very impressive the global consensus about the fell, quality and sailing performance of this boat.

I would say that if someone is looking for a high quality cruiser 42/44ft boat, like the Halberg Rassy, Malo or XC, it should also have a good look at this one: I don’t believe so many knowlegeable testers can be wrong in what they say about this boat and all say the same: A superyacht feel and quality with a very good performance. Impressive!!!





The British from Yachting World:

Once again on this category many interesting and good quality boats, with the candidates showing very different interpretations of the luxury concept. ..The Dutch presented a rather modest oversized family yacht that knows how to shine consistently. And they have managed to maintain their typical brand benchmark in what regards seaworthiness and quality construction. This give to it the aura of their much larger semi-custom vessels. The 42 CS provides nimble sailing performance, a variety of expansion options, a protected cockpit and a well-styled interior. Everything about it exudes class.

The Dutch from Waterkampioen :

This is a new direction for Contest Yacht. Old Contest still can be seen in around with a high quality design and built quality. This one is a boat from 2014, but with a pedigree of nearly half a century of Contest yachts. A very spacious and luxurious interior for a 42-foot boat. A very nicely designed cockpit. A stunning cabin roof in combination with an amazing deck. Regarding this size and this segment this boat is really something new. All this with a very high standard of build quality.

The Norwegians from Seilas:

From the interior the contest looks like a 50 fter, but is only 42 feet long. The standing height with well over two meters, the large windows and bright interiors give the boat a "wow" feeling. It sails surprisingly well and looks beautiful on the water. The Contest 42 CS will be the new benchmark in the lower size of the luxury yacht segment.

The Swiss from Marina.ch :

With its size, the Contest is at the lower end of this group and shows that luxury is not just a matter of size. …even among the larger competitors … the contest offers superyacht feeling on 42 feet sized boat.

The Italians from Fare Vela:

The contest is an elegant semi-custom approach to a sport-cruiser with the aim to please two audiences: those who wants performance, as well as want comfort for the family. They have achieved both goals. The contest offers several cockpit and rigging layouts with which you can adjust the boat individually. .. The cockpit looks very tidy and well suited for sailing. The rear cockpit is well protected ..At sea, the CS 42 is powerful, and sometimes you forget you are sailing on a relatively heavy cruiser.

The Austrians from Yacht Revue :

A truly stunning boat in this category, a variable cockpit concept with two control wheels, good sailing performance, modern design, different layouts below deck, very good build quality and a sensitive control system.


The Danish from BadNyt:

An impressive hull number 1 was tested in Southampton. Except for a few a few blemishes, the finish was overall excellent and the boat exudes luxury, not only from a distance, but also at a closer look. It works well and proved itself as serious sailing yacht. It has "only" 42 feet, but on board it feels much larger. Very luminous due to various “windows”, it is pure pleasure to use the salon in port or at sea.

The Swedes from Segling :

Great design, the highest level of construction quality combined with outstanding performance and excellent maneuverability characterize these Dutch wonder. Despite being an aft cockpit boat you feel safely protected on long passages. The illumination system with the touch screen contributes to the ultra-modern impression.

The French from Voile and Voiliers:

The contest won the award not only because of its high build quality and outstanding finishes of but because it is also a boat on which you dream of blue water trips done without the need of a professional crew. We were very impressed with the quality, thoughtful Deck equipment: a sailboat easy to sail and easy to trim, with real comfort for the crew.

The Spanish from Nautica & Yates:

High quality, luxury and excellent craftsmanship in an aft cockpit boat, which is rather unusual on a brand specialized in center cockpit boats. Three very well thought cockpit layouts are aimed at three different types of owners and sailors. Good looks and excellent sailing characteristics complete the package.

The Deutch from Yacht.de:

The Contest 42 CS is the smallest of the five fabulous candidates in the luxury category and yet feels and sails the a maxi-yacht, only more compact and much easier to handle. The cockpit rigging provides plenty of options being this more of a semi-custom than a series yacht. Great looks and fine craft work appear here as a matter of course. If one is willing to spend for a fully equipped boat over 500,000 Euros, you will hardly find better. Choosing for a true connoisseur!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 01-25-2014 at 03:20 PM.
PCP is offline  
post #5824 of 6763 Old 01-25-2014 Thread Starter
PCP
Senior Member
 
PCP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,201
Thanks: 21
Thanked 103 Times in 86 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Elan 320

One of the boats that had impress me at Dusseldorf was the Elan 320. Alright, it is a 310 MKII but what the hell, the 310 was a great boat and when you improve a great boat, you got an even better boat and that's what the 320 is.

Regarding cruising the boat is perfect for a family with kids, even two couples will be alright for some time. The boat has a great galley, a big freezer and a big head with a space for wet jackets. Lots of storage space on a big cockpit locker. Great performance cruiser for the size.

The 310 was a boat that could do also well racing, solo or crewed. The 320 will be able to do better since it is slightly lighter with the same ballast. Well I would have liked a bit more ballast and a bit lighter but we cannot have all things: that would make the boat substantially more expensive...and one of the things that make interesting is the price

Technical specifications:

Length Overall 9.55 m
Hull Length 9.25 m
Length at waterline 8.71 m
Beam 3.22 m
Draft 2.15m / 1.90m / 1.50m
Displacement 3690 kg
Ballast 900kg / 1050kg / 1060kg
Water capacity 140 litres
Fuel capacity 45 litres
Engine 18 HP
Mainsail 30.15 m
Jib 23.47 m
Gennaker 75 m

Boat design category CE A
Design Rob Humphreys Yacht Design
& Elan Design Team

price: 92 810 EUR including German VAT (19%), but without sails.

























Before someone starts to say that two wheels makes no sense on a small boat let me say that a tiller is optional. I would prefer a tiller but it seems that the two wheels can have advantages in what regards crewed racing.

This is the 310. The 320 is just slightly faster





To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 01-25-2014 at 09:51 PM.
PCP is offline  
post #5825 of 6763 Old 01-25-2014
Senior Member
 
blt2ski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,861
Thanks: 0
Thanked 26 Times in 25 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo,

I can probably get a 349 cheaper than a Varanta. As it will cost me $20K or so US to get the boat across the atlantic, then across NA. Where as I only have to get a 349 across NA, as I am recalling them building it in the joint South Carolina plant on the east coast. OR hopefully they will be. Otherwise at $120K for a base boat, I would be surprised one can get a boat with that level of trim etc for that base of a cost here any how.

But with a spouse losing some 50K a year since 08 in the reality market, new boats, much less barely affording a place to live is not happening. House is for sale, hopefully it will sell before the bank forecloses, boat may be soon also. This depression over here has not been good to us for many reasons shapes and forms.

Marty

She drives me boat,
I drives me dinghy!
blt2ski is online now  
post #5826 of 6763 Old 01-26-2014
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 52
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 3
 
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Complete novice at all of this if asked question would probably get brushed aside.
I will ask just in case I could be wrong.
Wind power is good thing.
What is with this heated debate about different shape of sailboats?
Some are narow some are wide. Narow is slow, wide is fast. What is safe, what is not for ocean travel?
Osprey 26 is offline  
post #5827 of 6763 Old 01-26-2014
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 684
Thanks: 5
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Rep Power: 3
 
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osprey 26 View Post
Complete novice at all of this if asked question would probably get brushed aside.
I will ask just in case I could be wrong.
Wind power is good thing.
What is with this heated debate about different shape of sailboats?
Some are narow some are wide. Narow is slow, wide is fast. What is safe, what is not for ocean travel?
Wide (and flat)
- is slow in low winds
- is slower upwind (and usually isn't able to point as high as narrow boats)
- able to plan downwind (and then way faster)
- is more stable in what regards heel
- has more space inside

Narrow
- is less harsh in wave movement
- has less wetted surface and therefore faster in the light
- points higher and faster
- heels a lot


If you concider ocean traveling with the tradewinds (most of the time downwind) and do not care of a light and simple interior, the wide french performance-cruisers are your choice. If you are going mainly upwind and looking for a traditional wodden interior you might look for a more traditional boat.

In neither case you should take a fat (but not wide&flat) cruiser like a Bavaria or a Beneteau: These are made for living, not for sailing...
robelz is offline  
post #5828 of 6763 Old 01-26-2014
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Sweden
Posts: 280
Thanks: 7
Thanked 17 Times in 17 Posts
Rep Power: 2
 
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by robelz View Post
Wide (and flat)
- is slow in low winds
- is slower upwind (and usually isn't able to point as high as narrow boats)
- able to plan downwind (and then way faster)
- is more stable in what regards heel
- has more space inside

Narrow
- is less harsh in wave movement
- has less wetted surface and therefore faster in the light
- points higher and faster
- heels a lot


If you concider ocean traveling with the tradewinds (most of the time downwind) and do not care of a light and simple interior, the wide french performance-cruisers are your choice. If you are going mainly upwind and looking for a traditional wodden interior you might look for a more traditional boat.

In neither case you should take a fat (but not wide&flat) cruiser like a Bavaria or a Beneteau: These are made for living, not for sailing...
This I do not agree with. Sweeping generalizations, as I see it. Robelz view is the rather old fashion view that many "old salts" (who owns narrow boats) use to claim.

Any meaningful comparision must have some common ground, point of reference. Otherwise one compares apples with bananas.

My personal experience defies RobelZ statements:
My boat is about the size of 12 m x 4 m, quite fat then. In the area we are sailing there are many long and narrow boats, as Safir, Smaragd, Wasa 55, Omega 42 and so on. In light winds we are usually faster, maybe with an exception for light downwinds. We usually can point higher, still go faster than the narrow ones (a bit of a chock for the Safirs, I can tell you, these are famous for very high pointing ability).
When the wind increase, speeds start to approach hull speed, then the longest waterline usually dominates, as expected.

What regards heeling stability, one usually talks about
- initial stability
- final stability

Initial stability is stems mainly from form stability, ie the shape of the boat where a fat boat has an advantage. On the other hand, many narrow boats are more or less intended to sail heeling, and has often a pronounced final stability, which is not as pronounced on a fat boat. Fat boats are often intended to be sailed with just a minor heeling.

The statement
Quote:
In neither case you should take a fat (but not wide&flat) cruiser like a Bavaria or a Beneteau: These are made for living, not for sailing
is often used in the debate in one or the other form, usually naming some mass produced boats (but I have heard it about many other boats as HR elder generations, Vind, and so on).
It is of course incorrect. In the case of Bavaria and Bene, they have both models that are fast and can compete with many others, both manufacturer also produces slower boats.

/J

Last edited by Jaramaz; 01-26-2014 at 07:39 AM.
Jaramaz is offline  
post #5829 of 6763 Old 01-26-2014 Thread Starter
PCP
Senior Member
 
PCP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,201
Thanks: 21
Thanked 103 Times in 86 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
Paulo,

I can probably get a 349 cheaper than a Varanta. As it will cost me $20K or so US to get the boat across the atlantic, then across NA. Where as I only have to get a 349 across NA, as I am recalling them building it in the joint South Carolina plant on the east coast. OR hopefully they will be. Otherwise at $120K for a base boat, I would be surprised one can get a boat with that level of trim etc for that base of a cost here any how.

But with a spouse losing some 50K a year since 08 in the reality market, new boats, much less barely affording a place to live is not happening. House is for sale, hopefully it will sell before the bank forecloses, boat may be soon also. This depression over here has not been good to us for many reasons shapes and forms.

Marty
Hei Marty,

Marty really sorry to know about your troubles. If it serves you of any consolation in Portugal we are also having a bad time. Me and my wive I retired early with a big cut on the pensions preferring to have time to money but what we did not expect was that our pensions to be cut after being granted. They went down as much as 25% and I was counting on the Architecture work (the pension is from teaching work) but that has also been down also with very few people buying new houses and with lots of older houses for sale cheaply. Not really a problem for us because we have everything paid own the house and the boat but life as to be more modest. Only now things start to look better in what regards the country but it will take years to go back to normality.

Back to sailing, I was mot talking about the Varianta but about the Bavaria 9.7. The base price there for a Bavaria 33 is 148 200 USD. The base price for the 9.7 should be about 120 000 USD, something like that. I believe it will be a bit cheaper than the jeanneau, but the Jeanneau 349 is a better boat. The price you give for the Jeanneau 349 is considerably lower than what the boat costs in Europe.

On boat prices a lot depends on local policies, factory interest, dealer cut and price of equipment but if that Bavaria cannot be sold at least for less USD 20 000 less than the Jeanneau 349 it would not be a good deal. I will keep an eye on that out of curiosity.

Regards

Paulo


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PCP is offline  
post #5830 of 6763 Old 01-26-2014 Thread Starter
PCP
Senior Member
 
PCP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,201
Thanks: 21
Thanked 103 Times in 86 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
On design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osprey 26 View Post
Complete novice at all of this if asked question would probably get brushed aside. I will ask just in case I could be wrong.
Wind power is good thing.
What is with this heated debate about different shape of sailboats?
Some are narow some are wide. Narow is slow, wide is fast. What is safe, what is not for ocean travel?
Not a question of being brushed aside but what you ask is what this thread is all about. Stick around and you learn. If you like boats and your desire to learn is strong enough go to the beginning of the thread and start reading it. Many has said that they have learned a lot. Certainly I have learned while doing it

Regarding your questions: Narrow is not slow and wide is not fast. There are narrow boats fast and narrow boats slow. The same with wide boats.

Some narrow boats are in absolute terms faster than beamier boats but to be faster they need a crew. If both boats are sailed solo then the beamier boat will be faster because it is easier to exploit.

Two different concepts, both modern, both with advantages and disadvantages (there are a lot of discussions about that on the thread).

Regarding safety for offshore sailing that is not also a question that can be defined between narrow and beamy boats. I would say however that in what regards modern light boars and smaller sizes, if less than 36ft, a well designed beamy boat can be more seaworthy than a much narrow boat of the same size simply because it is possible to have an overall bigger stability. But mind you that I am talking about possibilities, in reality each boat is a case and has to be looked and analyzed individually.

Regards

Paulo


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PCP is offline  
Closed Thread

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 6 (0 members and 6 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cruising sailboats for sale welch Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 10 04-25-2012 05:20 PM
THE Yacht Builder List T37Chef Boat Review and Purchase Forum 26 07-08-2011 05:51 AM
Noob wonderings and questions about sailing, life at sail and sailboats Vans General Discussion (sailing related) 49 06-20-2011 12:18 AM
A List of ALL sailboats made with layouts? Myblueheaven Boat Review and Purchase Forum 8 10-08-2010 11:32 AM
Failure to Navigate - interesting post on Panbo Blog & from the NewsReader Mass Bay Sailors 0 12-11-2006 06:15 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome