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  #5821  
Old 01-24-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo:
That cryptic illustration proves nothing. I wouild have to see how much deck each example had forward and some sections thru the area.

If you drop the "weave piercing (which I doubt) bow and just use a straight stem i.e. plumb stem, you can flare the deck out more and gain a lot of volume.

No, for a given LOA, as measured in the standard method, you DO NOT get more volume forward with a wave piercing bow. You get less and that is the whole point of the shape.

I've been drawing reverse bows for years.
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Last edited by bobperry; 01-24-2014 at 02:48 PM.
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  #5822  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:
That cryptic illustration proves nothing.....

No, for a given LOA, as measured in the standard method, you DO NOT get more volume forward with a wave piercing bow. You get less and that is the whole point of the shape.
...
It seems pretty clear to me. At red you have the extra volume that is added with the inverted bow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post

Here we have the same boat that has originally an inverted bow:



If a more traditional bow was used the bow buoyancy would be smaller for the same LOA:

It seems we do not have the same opinion about this.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 01-24-2014 at 03:42 PM.
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  #5823  
Old 01-24-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo:
I have a little time this afternoon. Let me do a quick sketch to try and illustrate what I am saying. I think perhaps like a few times in the past that you and I may be saying the same thing in different ways.

I'll do a sketch.
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  #5824  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

I think this sketch represents what we are talking about.
With the conventional bow profile I get 15.62& more area in the bow section.
I chose a section that would be representative of the area in question. The rest of my proportions are intended to be reasonable approximations of the actual shapes you would encounter.

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  #5825  
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Re: Reversed bows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
...
and please do not get me wrong - while i see the merits of wave piercing bows in race boats, i do not see them in cruisers...
as mentioned in the other thread, without massive water ballast, all those ocean racing monos are prone for a nose dive - and i think you cannot disagree with that.
Yes I disagree with that. Trimarans don't have water ballast and as I have showed you don't have necessarily to have less buoyancy. The Neo 400, the performance cruiser that I had posted above does not have water ballast and you are going to see on the next years most performance cruisers adopting the inverted bow simply because it works better performance wise.

An inverted bow is not necessarily wave piercing, in the sense it works on the that fast motor boat. There is many ways to design an inverted bow and the objective on a sailboat is to diminish wave drag with a better dissipation of the wave energy and with less spray not to pierce waves passing through them.

Regards

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Fareast 31R

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
....

One alternative is to shift construction to China and other low-cost countries. But then, I think it is very important to maintain a yacht building industry in Europe (and the U.S., of course). And building quality boats requires a great deal of skill. And people with such skills ought be compensated properly, in my opinion (with all due respect to skilled boat builders in China and Taiwan).
That has already being happening and the last boat is beautiful. I saw it on Dusseldorf and life is even more impressive. I mean this one:





A Simonis Voogd design made for Fareast, a Chinese company. This one is not a boat made by an American or European company in China but a true Chinese boat. They are all very young and very enthusiastic and I believe they will go far.

This boat the 31r has a base price of USD 140 000 euros and that is pretty incredible since it is a carbon boat including carbon rig. It comes without sails and white. The red one costs more USD 3750.

The dimensions point to a true rocket:

Displacement - 1800kg and from those 1200Kg are ballast

Draft 2.10m Lenght 9.80m, Beam 2.95m, Sail area upwind 65.0m2, downwind 161.0m2.



They have a boat that may interest you, the Fareast 26. I have already posted about it.



Regards

Paulo
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
I think this sketch represents what we are talking about.
With the conventional bow profile I get 15.62& more area in the bow section.
I chose a section that would be representative of the area in question. The rest of my proportions are intended to be reasonable approximations of the actual shapes you would encounter.

Yes of course but that is not what I am saying. If you look at the two drawings and what I said:



"If a more traditional bow was used the bow buoyancy would be smaller for the same LOA":

[/quote]

You will see that we are not talking about the same thing. I am talking about the same LOA and LOD and you are talking about hull length.

In fact I think that your boat with the conventional interior even with the same hull length has in fact a superior interior volume (we can see that on the plan, on the forward part), in one word is bigger and I have said that previously:

"For a given purpose you will not be designing a smaller boat on the deck and interior space when using an inverted bow instead of a vertical or slightly inclined one, so in fact you will get more buoyancy using an inverted one.

This was what I meant to say. Of course if you maintain hull length you will have not only less buoyancy on the bow but also a smaller boat not only on LOD but also in interior volume and space and what makes sense when talking about a similar sized boat is interior space not LOA."


Maybe after all we are not disagreeing

One of the biggest advantages that I saw in an inverted bow is the possibility of keeping on the waterline a more rounded profile (like they are doing now on the Open boats) but having a shape on the superior sections that will offer less drag to waves, dissipating better the energy. Of course it will be complex because it is also needed to provide a shape (on the top) that will took away the spray from the deck. The more rounded shape at waterline will increase in much the buoyancy and volume (a bit like on the bath tube bow) but an inverted shape can provide a better wave penetration than on the bathtube bow. Interesting stuff in my opinion. I believe we are going to see on the next years some funny looking bows on race boats and performance cruisers

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 01-24-2014 at 06:08 PM.
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  #5828  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo:
We built 120 of these Flying Tiger 10 meters in China. We also build a 7.5 m model.
We did this project over 5 years ago.


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Flying Tiger

Nice boats:

Flying Tiger Boats

The difference is that while this is an American Company making boats in China, Fareast is a Chinese company making high quality boats, the first one.

By the way, have a look here:

Langfahrt: Einblicke in eine Blauwasseryacht - Panorama*|*YACHT.DE

Lots of pictures with nice comments.

The Aluminium boat you designed and was made in Holland is today a famous boat in Germany due to the new owners that are very popular cruisers.

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  #5830  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Thanks a lot Paulo!
I don't speak German so I have no idea what the article says. My son speaks German and I'll see him on Sunday. I'll see if he can translate. That's a great photo. I truly appreciate you calling this to my attention. I have communicated with the owners but I know nothing about them. Maybe one day I'll be known in Germany. I really am a huge Wagner fan.
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