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  #5841  
Old 01-26-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osprey 26 View Post
Complete novice at all of this if asked question would probably get brushed aside.
I will ask just in case I could be wrong.
Wind power is good thing.
What is with this heated debate about different shape of sailboats?
Some are narow some are wide. Narow is slow, wide is fast. What is safe, what is not for ocean travel?
Wide (and flat)
- is slow in low winds
- is slower upwind (and usually isn't able to point as high as narrow boats)
- able to plan downwind (and then way faster)
- is more stable in what regards heel
- has more space inside

Narrow
- is less harsh in wave movement
- has less wetted surface and therefore faster in the light
- points higher and faster
- heels a lot


If you concider ocean traveling with the tradewinds (most of the time downwind) and do not care of a light and simple interior, the wide french performance-cruisers are your choice. If you are going mainly upwind and looking for a traditional wodden interior you might look for a more traditional boat.

In neither case you should take a fat (but not wide&flat) cruiser like a Bavaria or a Beneteau: These are made for living, not for sailing...
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  #5842  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by robelz View Post
Wide (and flat)
- is slow in low winds
- is slower upwind (and usually isn't able to point as high as narrow boats)
- able to plan downwind (and then way faster)
- is more stable in what regards heel
- has more space inside

Narrow
- is less harsh in wave movement
- has less wetted surface and therefore faster in the light
- points higher and faster
- heels a lot


If you concider ocean traveling with the tradewinds (most of the time downwind) and do not care of a light and simple interior, the wide french performance-cruisers are your choice. If you are going mainly upwind and looking for a traditional wodden interior you might look for a more traditional boat.

In neither case you should take a fat (but not wide&flat) cruiser like a Bavaria or a Beneteau: These are made for living, not for sailing...
This I do not agree with. Sweeping generalizations, as I see it. Robelz view is the rather old fashion view that many "old salts" (who owns narrow boats) use to claim.

Any meaningful comparision must have some common ground, point of reference. Otherwise one compares apples with bananas.

My personal experience defies RobelZ statements:
My boat is about the size of 12 m x 4 m, quite fat then. In the area we are sailing there are many long and narrow boats, as Safir, Smaragd, Wasa 55, Omega 42 and so on. In light winds we are usually faster, maybe with an exception for light downwinds. We usually can point higher, still go faster than the narrow ones (a bit of a chock for the Safirs, I can tell you, these are famous for very high pointing ability).
When the wind increase, speeds start to approach hull speed, then the longest waterline usually dominates, as expected.

What regards heeling stability, one usually talks about
- initial stability
- final stability

Initial stability is stems mainly from form stability, ie the shape of the boat where a fat boat has an advantage. On the other hand, many narrow boats are more or less intended to sail heeling, and has often a pronounced final stability, which is not as pronounced on a fat boat. Fat boats are often intended to be sailed with just a minor heeling.

The statement
Quote:
In neither case you should take a fat (but not wide&flat) cruiser like a Bavaria or a Beneteau: These are made for living, not for sailing
is often used in the debate in one or the other form, usually naming some mass produced boats (but I have heard it about many other boats as HR elder generations, Vindö, and so on).
It is of course incorrect. In the case of Bavaria and Bene, they have both models that are fast and can compete with many others, both manufacturer also produces slower boats.

/J

Last edited by Jaramaz; 01-26-2014 at 07:39 AM.
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  #5843  
Old 01-26-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
Paulo,

I can probably get a 349 cheaper than a Varanta. As it will cost me $20K or so US to get the boat across the atlantic, then across NA. Where as I only have to get a 349 across NA, as I am recalling them building it in the joint South Carolina plant on the east coast. OR hopefully they will be. Otherwise at $120K for a base boat, I would be surprised one can get a boat with that level of trim etc for that base of a cost here any how.

But with a spouse losing some 50K a year since 08 in the reality market, new boats, much less barely affording a place to live is not happening. House is for sale, hopefully it will sell before the bank forecloses, boat may be soon also. This depression over here has not been good to us for many reasons shapes and forms.

Marty
Hei Marty,

Marty really sorry to know about your troubles. If it serves you of any consolation in Portugal we are also having a bad time. Me and my wive I retired early with a big cut on the pensions preferring to have time to money but what we did not expect was that our pensions to be cut after being granted. They went down as much as 25% and I was counting on the Architecture work (the pension is from teaching work) but that has also been down also with very few people buying new houses and with lots of older houses for sale cheaply. Not really a problem for us because we have everything paid own the house and the boat but life as to be more modest. Only now things start to look better in what regards the country but it will take years to go back to normality.

Back to sailing, I was mot talking about the Varianta but about the Bavaria 9.7. The base price there for a Bavaria 33 is 148 200 USD. The base price for the 9.7 should be about 120 000 USD, something like that. I believe it will be a bit cheaper than the jeanneau, but the Jeanneau 349 is a better boat. The price you give for the Jeanneau 349 is considerably lower than what the boat costs in Europe.

On boat prices a lot depends on local policies, factory interest, dealer cut and price of equipment but if that Bavaria cannot be sold at least for less USD 20 000 less than the Jeanneau 349 it would not be a good deal. I will keep an eye on that out of curiosity.

Regards

Paulo
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  #5844  
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On design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osprey 26 View Post
Complete novice at all of this if asked question would probably get brushed aside. I will ask just in case I could be wrong.
Wind power is good thing.
What is with this heated debate about different shape of sailboats?
Some are narow some are wide. Narow is slow, wide is fast. What is safe, what is not for ocean travel?
Not a question of being brushed aside but what you ask is what this thread is all about. Stick around and you learn. If you like boats and your desire to learn is strong enough go to the beginning of the thread and start reading it. Many has said that they have learned a lot. Certainly I have learned while doing it

Regarding your questions: Narrow is not slow and wide is not fast. There are narrow boats fast and narrow boats slow. The same with wide boats.

Some narrow boats are in absolute terms faster than beamier boats but to be faster they need a crew. If both boats are sailed solo then the beamier boat will be faster because it is easier to exploit.

Two different concepts, both modern, both with advantages and disadvantages (there are a lot of discussions about that on the thread).

Regarding safety for offshore sailing that is not also a question that can be defined between narrow and beamy boats. I would say however that in what regards modern light boars and smaller sizes, if less than 36ft, a well designed beamy boat can be more seaworthy than a much narrow boat of the same size simply because it is possible to have an overall bigger stability. But mind you that I am talking about possibilities, in reality each boat is a case and has to be looked and analyzed individually.

Regards

Paulo
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  #5845  
Old 01-26-2014
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On Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by robelz View Post
Wide (and flat)
- is slow in low winds
- is slower upwind (and usually isn't able to point as high as narrow boats)
- able to plan downwind (and then way faster)
- is more stable in what regards heel
- has more space inside

Narrow
- is less harsh in wave movement
- has less wetted surface and therefore faster in the light
- points higher and faster
- heels a lot


If you consider ocean traveling with the tradewinds (most of the time downwind) and do not care of a light and simple interior, the wide french performance-cruisers are your choice. If you are going mainly upwind and looking for a traditional wodden interior you might look for a more traditional boat.

In neither case you should take a fat (but not wide&flat) cruiser like a Bavaria or a Beneteau: These are made for living, not for sailing...
I agree with most but big generalization like that are dangerous. For instance a narrower hull shape like the one of a VOR 65 is able to go faster planing downwind than an Open60, even if they had 65ft. The same with many other boats. Planing downwind has mostly to do with lightness and shape of the hull. The difference is that while on a narrower boat you will have to have a crew to have it in perfect balance, a beamy boat (Open 60 type) is much more forgiving, so forgiving that it can do that on autopilot, but it also has more drag and is therefore slower.

Of course, you are talking about boats with similar weight but it is convenient to point that as well that the wet surface is mostly a consequence of weight (and design of keel and rudder).

Also to point out that the situation were narrow boats are more effective is upwind with considerable sized waves. You are right when saying that normally a narrower boat can be faster in light wind but that difference can be pretty marginal and when the beamier boat is considerably lighter (and that happens many times) it is not always the case. Going upwind with considerable sized waves is where narrow boats really have a big advantage, even heavier ones due to wave drag that is much bigger in a beamy boat than in a narrow one.

Also in what regards Bavaria and Oceanis series (or any other main market boat) I do not agree that they are for living, since they sail pretty well, as well as in most cases older performance cruisers, but I agree that on their design program, living, interior space and cost have a bigger influence on the design criteria.

Regarding fast performance narrow boats, more than to the French performance cruisers I would look for the Danish, American or Italian ones, boats like the J 1boats, Luffe, Xp or NM yachts.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 01-26-2014 at 09:22 AM.
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  #5846  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaramaz View Post
This I do not agree with. Sweeping generalizations, as I see it. Robelz view is the rather old fashion view that many "old salts" (who owns narrow boats) use to claim.

Any meaningful comparision must have some common ground, point of reference. Otherwise one compares apples with bananas.

My personal experience defies RobelZ statements:
My boat is about the size of 12 m x 4 m, quite fat then. In the area we are sailing there are many long and narrow boats, as Safir, Smaragd, Wasa 55, Omega 42 and so on. In light winds we are usually faster, maybe with an exception for light downwinds. We usually can point higher, still go faster than the narrow ones (a bit of a chock for the Safirs, I can tell you, these are famous for very high pointing ability).
When the wind increase, speeds start to approach hull speed, then the longest waterline usually dominates, as expected.

What regards heeling stability, one usually talks about
- initial stability
- final stability

Initial stability is stems mainly from form stability, ie the shape of the boat where a fat boat has an advantage. On the other hand, many narrow boats are more or less intended to sail heeling, and has often a pronounced final stability, which is not as pronounced on a fat boat. Fat boats are often intended to be sailed with just a minor heeling.

The statement is often used in the debate in one or the other form, usually naming some mass produced boats (but I have heard it about many other boats as HR elder generations, Vindö, and so on).
It is of course incorrect. In the case of Bavaria and Bene, they have both models that are fast and can compete with many others, both manufacturer also produces slower boats.

/J
yes I agree regarding wide generalization but I believe that what Robelz said implied boats with the same weight.

What is your boat?

Regards

Paulo
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  #5847  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo, The Jeanneau has a base price of 120K US$. So if the Bavaria is teh same, I am sure some of the lack of difference is getting the boat transported from Germany to to the US shores. From that standpoint, the 349 is the better deal $$ wise here.

I am sure I would end up at about 150-170, as I would probably add the performance pkg to name a few things, along with some electronics, initial epoxy coat the bottom and bottom paint. Then some of the dealers add things like a commission kit, Anchor, fenders, pfds etc.

Marty
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  #5848  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
yes I agree regarding wide generalization but I believe that what Robelz said implied boats with the same weight.

Paulo
No, Robelz did not sate anything about the weight. We all know, one can use may parameters for boats, none will capture all important aspects.

Even if we assume weight, the generalizations have not sufficient basis: It is well known that narrow boats have to have more lead as they have less form stability (which in itself is a generalization, agreed).

Narrow boats have their charm, without any question. I have had several . Fat boats have other charms.

But I do not see the need for sweeping generalizations, looking down at this or that brand. We all make our choises, most often these are comprimizes.

/J
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  #5849  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaramaz View Post
No, Robelz did not sate anything about the weight. We all know, one can use may parameters for boats, none will capture all important aspects.

Even if we assume weight, the generalizations have not sufficient basis: It is well known that narrow boats have to have more lead as they have less form stability (which in itself is a generalization, agreed).

Narrow boats have their charm, without any question. I have had several . Fat boats have other charms.

But I do not see the need for sweeping generalizations, looking down at this or that brand. We all make our choises, most often these are comprimizes.

/J
I think you are being too harsh with Robelz's post. I implied he was talking about boats with the same weight and as a generic generalization it does not seemed bad to me.

Yes, we can say that generically a narrow boat needs more ballast or more draft or a much more efficient keel to compensate the superior stability given by the hull form stability of a beamier boat, if both boats have about the same displacement and speed.

For understanding your comments and since you have given your boat as a reference it is useful to know what boat you sail. What is your boat?

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 01-27-2014 at 07:55 AM.
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Alliage yachts

Long go the days where Alliage were one of my preferred aluminum 41ft sailboat. The brand had abandoned the smaller cruising market and today his smaller boat has 45fts but the really are pointing tho bigger models.

They have two ranges, one with non ballasted centerboarders (like OVNI; Boreal or Allures) and another one that they call Azzuro, with a lifting keel. All the boats are beautiful and well designed by Berret Racoupeau, kind of "chic" voyage boat, but not less effective. I still like them a lot even if regret they finish making smaller boats:

Who would say this baby has already 14 year's old:



The 41 had already a two rudder set up.

Have a look at the Alliage 53



and to their two lines (very nice boats):

Azzuro 53 Voiliers De Voyage Aluminium De La Gamme Azzuro

Today they belong to the Alubat group, the ones that make OVNI and its their "luxury" brand. These ones are supposed to be "yachts" already while the OVNI are just sailboats
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