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  #5891  
Old 01-29-2014
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Re: 250 000 at Dusseldorf boat show.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robelz View Post
The question is: Is the quality worth the money? I would never again spend so much money in expensive wood instead of a perfect sail wardrobe and high-tech electronics... I simply do not need it, it doesn't even satisfy me...

PS: I co-own a HR42...
I didn't mean only the quality of wood. There are more important things that you mentioned in your post regarding the difference between First and Oceanis like hull stiffness due to better materials and technology, and keel material and its attachment, quality and robustness of standing rigging, etc. Running rigging and sails you can always upgrade on any boat. I could ask Oluf to skip all the wood from my boat but didn't because for this type of boat (modern and livable skerry cruiser) the wood outside and inside suits her and adds personality. Besides, I think besides the good looks all that wood on decks and below is functional as well in terms of nonslip and insulation.

Regards
Rumen
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  #5892  
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Re: Italian style yachts

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
We have also Wally making big yachts:

Wally // Sail

Regards

Paulo
There is a wally nano as well. 36 footer with plumb bow and enormous stern overhang.

Regards
Rumen

Last edited by Faster; 01-29-2014 at 11:01 AM. Reason: fixed quote
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  #5893  
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Aureus XV

A new movie about the Aureus. Definitively I would not mind to have one

This is what I am talking about regarding costs: a boat like this, with outstanding sailing performance that can be sailed at the touch of the fingers of a solo sailor, as to cost a lot more than a boat with a similarly luxurious interior but with only a decent sailing performance like an Halberg Rassy or a Najad. In boats, like in cars or even audio, top performance is really expensive.

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  #5894  
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Re: Vismara 34

Quote:
Originally Posted by robelz View Post
I love the Brusafer on the first sight, on the second look it is a litte bit weird, ordered by a very rich man with lots of weird ideas (a strong focus on Hifi sound and so on)...
What I love in the boat is the hull design, rig and cockpit layout, not the interior.

Regards

Paulo
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  #5895  
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Luxury versus good design and modern building techniques.

Quote:
Originally Posted by olianta View Post
I can't believe why one is going to downgrade from Halberg Rassy to Dufour. There are fast boats in the same quality league of Halberg Rassy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by robelz View Post
The question is: Is the quality worth the money? I would never again spend so much money in expensive wood instead of a perfect sail wardrobe and high-tech electronics... I simply do not need it, it doesn't even satisfy me...
PS: I co-own a HR42...
Quote:
Originally Posted by olianta View Post
I didn't mean only the quality of wood. There are more important things that you mentioned in your post regarding the difference between First and Oceanis like hull stiffness due to better materials and technology, and keel material and its attachment, quality and robustness of standing rigging, etc. Running rigging and sails you can always upgrade on any boat. …
Interesting discussion. Rumen I don’t think that in what regards sailing the Dufour 410 is a worst boat than the Halberg Rassy 412, in fact it is almost for sure the opposite, including hull stiffness. In fact you have a large choice of options on the Dufour and a top boat will match in hull quality and sail hardware a Halberg Rassy. On Dufour they use top building techniques:

"To increase performance and structural strength, Dufour Yachts uses cutting-edge techniques in the design and manufacture of their hulls and decks.
Decks, vacuum infusion technology: The resin sheets are impregnated by air suction. This advanced technology, which is widely used in the aeronautics industry, results in the production of a composite material of outstanding mechanical quality. Advantages : Significant structural weight / performance ratio.

Injection technology: Injection moulding consists of bringing resin in a space between two moulds, by injecting it under pressure to reinforce fibre cloths. This complex technique enables all air bubbles to be eliminated and produces a consistent fibre / resin ratio.

Decks are manufactured in one piece, resulting in excellent headroom.
Advantages : Significant gain in weight (better sail rigidity), original quality finish and excellent reliability.

Sandwich hulls, vacuum bonding: The sandwich hull is made up of a set of constituents laminated through pressure and bonding. The type of constituent varies according to the desired effect. Generally speaking, the sandwich hull is made up of a central layer of PVC foam placed between two reinforcements (laminated skin), protected by gelcoat on the exterior surface. Advantages : Better sound proofing, increased mechanical properties, increased longitudinal rigidity of the hull under equal displacement, no absorption humidity due to the use of PVC foam rather than balsa".


On Halberg- Rassy they say about their building techniques:

"Hull and Deck: Hand lay-up GRP hull with a vinylester based barrier coat. The hull is insu¨lated above water line with Divinycell PVC-foam against heat and cold. Under the mast support there is a steel beam moulded into the hull stiffener. Strong under floor reinforcements, bonded with composite. … Deck, coachroof areas and cockpit are of sandwich construction, solid in parts, laminated to the hull."

It seems to me that the bigger production has allowed Dufour to invest in high tech building techniques that are not yet used by Halberg-Rassy.

Regarding the interior I find the quality of the design way better on the Dufour 410, a bigger and more comfortable living space. Of course the quality of materials in the interior and the finish is superior on the Halberg-Rassy and it is to each one to decide if that deserves the difference in price or even if they prefer the Halberg-Rassy space.

What I said regarding boats needing a stronger and stiffer hull did not refer to Halberg-Rassy or Dufour 410, both non performance cruisers but regarding a comparison between a main market cruiser and a performance one like the Dufour 410 and the Dufour 40e or the Halberg-Rassy 412 and for instance an Arcona 410. The performance boats have bigger rigs, bigger RM for the weight and need to have a stronger hull to take the bigger generated loads.

Regards

Paulo
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  #5896  
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Re: Vismara 34

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
They are one of the several Italian brands that have been posted on this thread that make top performance small yachts. Have a look back on the thread or look for instance at this ones (that have already been posted):

ICE Yachts srl - Ice Yachts

Mylius Yachts, Barche a vela, Fast Cruiser

ADVANCED - Italian Yachts

Sly Sailing Yachts

B-YACHTS

Solaris by Serigi

ITALIA YACHTS ? Performance and cruising luxury boats

Fast cruising carbon sailing yacht Aureus XV - The Compact Maxi Yacht

ComarYachts

We have also Wally making big yachts:

Wally // Sail

Regards

Paulo
Don't forget NM!
Quote:
Originally Posted by olianta View Post
I didn't mean only the quality of wood. There are more important things that you mentioned in your post regarding the difference between First and Oceanis like hull stiffness due to better materials and technology, and keel material and its attachment, quality and robustness of standing rigging, etc. Running rigging and sails you can always upgrade on any boat. I could ask Oluf to skip all the wood from my boat but didn't because for this type of boat (modern and livable skerry cruiser) the wood outside and inside suits her and adds personality. Besides, I think besides the good looks all that wood on decks and below is functional as well in terms of nonslip and insulation.

Regards
Rumen
Of course I know what you are talking about but in several points I don't think you are right. Standing and running rigging is not that good at a HR (mostly by Selden that also deliver riggings for nearly everyone).
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
What I love in the boat is the hull design, rig and cockpit layout, not the interior.

Regards

Paulo
I am with you!
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  #5897  
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Re: Luxury versus good design and modern building techniques.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
What I said regarding boats needing a stronger and stiffer hull did not refer to Halberg-Rassy or Dufour 410, both non performance cruisers but regarding a comparison between a main market cruiser and a performance one like the Dufour 410 and the Dufour 40e or the Halberg-Rassy 412 and for instance an Arcona 410. The performance boats have bigger rigs, bigger RM for the weight and need to have a stronger hull to take the bigger generated loads.

Regards

Paulo
Actually I am no fan of Halberg Rassy. Currently, in our waters (west Black Sea coast) there are a few Halberg Rassys (from 31 to 43) and I am not impressed by their sailing ability. their owners sail them as daysailors which lacks sense. You cannot have a fun sailing such a boat.

In my post where I was surprised that someone would downgrade from Halberg Rassy to Dufour, I meant that there are other fast both performance and non performance cruisers in the higher quality level, like the Xp/Xc which Dufour 410 or cannot match. And since price is to a big extent a measure of quality, I would say that if I have got used to Hallberg Rassy and want something faster, I will be looking for a new boat within similar price level (X Yachts, Solaris) and would not opt to buy a Dufour 410GL/40e, though I may charter one, (unless my buying ability has downgraded as well). It is like with cars, if you had a Volvo you would not switch to Peugeut, but may be to a BMW if you can afford it (and I take for granted that a current owner of relatively new Halberg Rassy has the means to switch it for a boat in the same price league).

P.S. On the official detailed PDF brochure of Dufour 410 GL they write that the hull is hand laid polyester fibreglass. maybe they can upgrade everything but that will add a lot of cost and may be the boat will not compete that much with other more expensive brands.

Regards
Rumen

Last edited by Faster; 01-29-2014 at 11:02 AM. Reason: fixed quote
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  #5898  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

By the way, I didn't know that in 2013 Dufour Yachts was reorganised through Management buy out of the company from the Bavaria Yacht Group.

Rumen
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  #5899  
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Dufour

Quote:
Originally Posted by olianta View Post
By the way, I didn't know that in 2013 Dufour Yachts was reorganised through Management buy out of the company from the Bavaria Yacht Group.

On the official detailed PDF brochure of Dufour 410 GL they write that the hull is hand laid polyester fibreglass. maybe they can upgrade everything but that will add a lot of cost and may be the boat will not compete that much with other more expensive brands.

Rumen
Yes they were bought by Bavaria 4 years ago as well as Grand Soleil. But contrary to Hanse with Dehler the results were not good and both company are out of Bavaria now. Grand Soleil is connected with the group that makes Sly yachts and Dufour is independent again.

Regarding upgrading yachts it is the new trend now on the middle price mass market boats. Brands like Dehler, Dufour or Salona can purpose you basic relatively inexpensive boats or boats hugely improved (including hull, keel and mast materials) for a much more expensive amount of money. that's a great deal because using the molds and some of the parts for both boats they can save a lot an purpose a basic boat or a produce a very top boat by much less than it would cost a brand new one.

Regards

Paulo
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  #5900  
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Re: Dufour

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Yes they were bought by Bavaria 4 years ago as well as Grand Soleil.
Regards

Paulo
Thanks Paulo, as usual you are well informed. I think I read somewhere recently that Grand Soleil may be in trouble because Bavaria "didn't want them any more". It seems that well known boatyards and brands will get extinct if they do not find financial help accompanied by good marketing strategies.
When I was in Denmark two months ago I even heard some rumours that Bavaria were not doing well - they have cut production quantities of new boats and besides they were stuck up with a lot of used boats that they bought out from loyal customers after selling them new ones. Unlike cars (that after some years go for scrap) fibreglass boats don't get destroyed but circulate the used boat market and that market tends to be the biggest competitor of the boatyards. That was another opinion I heard.

Regards
Rumen
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