Interesting Sailboats - Page 595 - SailNet Community
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post #5941 of 6763 Old 02-02-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats




25 feet, 1500kg, 50% ballast, fat head main, 59000€ incl. VAT...
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo:
The information is all in my last post. Read slowly.

The boat review was the Sun Odessey349. Don't recall the publication but it was English. I think they generally do the best and most honest job. But I don't speak French, Spanish or Italian. I do quite well with Mandarin though.

Sun Odessey 349 was the bopat reviewed.

The Bavaria is ther Farr desin and I said one boat has no chiones and that boat is the Farr design.

The Farr designed Bavaria has no chines.

Clear?

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Bob's Blog ....

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post #5943 of 6763 Old 02-02-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

I love that new X Yacht.
No chines?
They must be behind the times or not know what they are doing.
Or, really know what they are doing. Yes, I think that's it.

Ha!

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post #5944 of 6763 Old 02-02-2014 Thread Starter
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:
The information is all in my last post. Read slowly.

The boat review was the Sun Odessey349. Don't recall the publication but it was English. I think they generally do the best and most honest job. But I don't speak French, Spanish or Italian. I do quite well with Mandarin though.

Sun Odessey 349 was the bopat reviewed.

The Bavaria is ther Farr desin and I said one boat has no chiones and that boat is the Farr design.

The Farr designed Bavaria has no chines.

Clear?
Bob, that discussion is on another thread and I have re-posted your post there as well as the answer.

On this thread we have already covered chines and their function on sailboat design.

For the ones that want to continue to discuss the subject there is a thread about it where Bob Perry and I, among others have been posting:

Hard Chines

Regards

Paulo


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post #5945 of 6763 Old 02-02-2014 Thread Starter
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Pointer 25

Quote:
Originally Posted by robelz View Post



25 feet, 1500kg, 50% ballast, fat head main, 59000 incl. VAT...
The dimensions look great but the Vand de Stadt design looks not very interesting or modern. The builder is a Dutch dingy manufacturer and I doubt they can keep the final weight of 1500kg (with 750kg of ballast). Let's wait and see.

Regards

Paulo


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post #5946 of 6763 Old 02-02-2014 Thread Starter
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Chines

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
I love that new X Yacht.
No chines?
They must be behind the times or not know what they are doing.
Or, really know what they are doing. Yes, I think that's it.

Ha!
Bob, the X yachts are designed by Niels Jeppesen an in house designer that only designs X yachts. Even if I do prefer designers with a broader experience than an in house designer there are some that have proved along the time and particularly in racing that they are great in what they do. That's the case for instance with Neils but also with Johnstone from Jboats.

From what observation it seems that you consider that Neils know what is doing when is not using chines in cruising boats and that the other designers that use them don't know what they are doing, for instance designers like Marc Lombard, Finot/Conq, Berret Racopeau, Umberto Felci. Off course being Neils Jeppesen a great NA all of the above are no less and even have a lot more experience having designed much more boats and very different ones. I believe they all know what they are doing.

Again, for the ones that want to participate on the discussion of this subject please post and follow it here:Hard Chines


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Xc 35

Talking about X-Yachts and Niels Jeppesen, I visited his last work at Dusseldorf boat show, the XC 35 and I have only one word to describe it: Cute

That is a very nice little boat that did not have convinced my wife that prefers the quality of French interior design. Maybe I have a better eye for the quality of building and finish that in this boat is superb:





















There are very few things that I don't like on this boat, being one of them the big cockpit table that is not removable and that takes away a lot of space from the cockpit that being the one of a 35ft boat is not big. One of those folding ones that disappear on the cockpit floor would be a far better solution.

But I really don't understand the market concept of this boat. They say:

(The XC 35) "will become the newest member of the highly praised and awarded long distance Xcruising range. The Xc 35 is designed to offer a smoother voyage than typical performance cruisers, by having a relatively heavier displacement and deeper hull sections. These deeper V-shaped hull sections help the Xc models give a more comfortable motion in large waves, especially when heading upwind under sail or engine."

But then the boat has a beam of 3.52m, similar to other mass market cruising boats has a weight of 6450 kg that is comparable with the one of a Bavaria 36 and the boat has not more rocker than the typical mass production cruiser so I guess that all that talk regarding a superior comfort in sea motion is just talk.

A very nice boat, but who would chose such a small boat to long distance cruising, a boat with limited storage and tankage that cost the price of a more seaworthy and comfortable much bigger boat? The basic price of this little beauty is over 190 000 euros.

Contrary to what they claim this is much more of a nice coastal luxury cruiser than a voyage boat...and I don't believe they will sell many of them. The 38 and the bigger boats on the XC line make a lot more sense in what regards long range cruising in comfort and luxury.
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post #5948 of 6763 Old 02-02-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Something about X-Yachts: Had a nice chat at the BOOT with a Danish salesman. Asking him about the XP33's performance he said: In fact it was built for IRC but there wasn't any major success in 2013. In ORCi instead it was pretty good...

Nice for those who are looking for an ORCi racer but a hard verdict for Jeppersen...


van de Stad has never made very modern designs, but you can see at Winner Yachts that their design work very well... The 900 is one of the best 9m-boats I know. Perfekt interior, not too heavy, pretty good performance and extremely seaworthy.

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ORC and rating systems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robelz View Post
Something about X-Yachts: Had a nice chat at the BOOT with a Danish salesman. Asking him about the XP33's performance he said: In fact it was built for IRC but there wasn't any major success in 2013. In ORCi instead it was pretty good...

Nice for those who are looking for an ORCi racer but a hard verdict for Jeppersen...
That's all about the nonsense regarding rating formulas. For being good in IRC the boat had to be worse than it is (slower), I mean they had to put one of those stupid keels without a torpedo and diminish the RM of the boat. There are specialists in that, I mean tailoring boats for rating formulas but that does not mean they make very good boats, only boats that can beat the formula.

That is particularly stupid with IRS since the formula is a secret one, not like the ORC that is an open one. I hope that in a near future they finish of having the nonsense of having two major ratting systems and unify them.

Meanwhile I find the ORC a much better rating system adapting more the rating to the true performance of the boat and allowing for different ratings in different sea and wind conditions. It allows also a lot more variety in what regards the type of boats that will be able to win, in what regards hull shape and type of boat and has less influence in boat design than the IRC.

Don't believe me, believe Jason Ker:



It is not by accident that some of the best racing Nas have been contributing to the perfection of ORC that I think they see as the one that deserves to be improved.

ORC has a technical committee (ITC) that are the ones that are in charge of adapting each year the rule to make it more true to each boat real performances:

The ITC is composed of nine members and two research associates who are naval architects, measurers, marine engineers and experts in aero and hydrodynamics, and who annually pursue a research agenda to update and improve the Velocity Prediction Program (VPP) used by ORC. This VPP forms the basis for ORC to provide ORC International (ORCi) and ORC Club handicap ratings for over 9000 boats around the world that race using ORC rating systems, and is used at the annual ORCi World Championship, the official ISAF offshore World Championship event.

It is not a big committee and among them they have Jim Schmicker from Farr Yacht design and Jason Ker.

The ORC appears as a perfection of the IMS, based on a more scientific approach. In fact IMS was created by ORC and is still used (in ORC and other rating) as a measurement system. The ORC uses a much improved and complex VPP. The ORC was born in 1969 to create a unique international handicap standard from all pre-existing rating systems. Well, they are still trying

The ORC championships have been increasing in number and participation and they are very important in the Med and in the Baltic. There are actually ORC championships in Italy, Germany, Russia, swede, Finland, Norway, Netherlands, Lithuania, Estonia, Austria, Portugal, Spain, Greece, Croatia, Ecuador, Brazil, Argentina and Korea. Also a Mediterranean and a Central European championship as well as each year a World Championship and a European championship (at a single location and for about a week each).

As you can see the big hole in the picture are the French and the British that stick to IRC as well as the Americans that go mostly with a local rating system (PHRF).

Too technical to post about it here but if you, or anybody wants to know more about it (and it is very interesting) you can look at a ORCI certificate and look at the explanation about all those numbers in their site, a very good and dynamic one:

http://www.avomeripurjehtijat.fi/mit...012/L11514.pdf

ORC - World Leader in Rating Technology

ORC - World Leader in Rating Technology

http://www.orc.org/rules/ORC%20VPP%2...ion%202013.pdf

Regards

Paulo


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Re: Interesting Sailboats

[QU
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
I just noticed: 1.000 (one thousand!) "likes".
Congratulations Paulo and all the other faithful contributors to this excellent thread.
Cheers,
Eric
Quote:
Originally Posted by robelz View Post
Congratulations, Paulo, your "baby" is now 1000 likes old...

I have another "baby" with almost as much likes and a lot less views, this one:

Pictures: Those perfect moments

It seems that the guys that like this thread never post there. I would like to see that changed. One of the way of knowing people better is to know what they sail and what they like regarding cruising or racing but another good way is to have a look at it

So, please use a site like photobucket to host the photos (free) and post the photos in the thread (photobucket link). I really enjoy see other member's nice photos, so please contribute for an overall better image of us all, what we see and what we like.

Regards to all,

Paulo
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