Interesting Sailboats - Page 597 - SailNet Community
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post #5961 of 6763 Old 02-03-2014 Thread Starter
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Chines, cruising and racing

I have posted this on another thread, that one already mentioned about chines:

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
...

This discussion led me to look at the subject with more attention. Regarding chines I had already seeing designers defending them in what regards absolute gains in speed but I like pragmatism and reality over theory and it is so simple as this: If chines represented an effective gain in speed, in what regards top racing and top racing designers, everyone would be using them. Of course as it is a relatively new thing and the gains are small it would take time to spread but it will spread inevitably to all, otherwise even small that difference would make the boats less competitive.

So, I had a look at top racing boats and new designs and a separation appears very clearly: Practically all solo boats, boats that are to be sailed with short crews or offshore over huge distances, extensively even with a crew, have them.

Many, maybe even most, of the top regatta crewed boats don't have them even if recent designs. For instance the TP 52 don't have them or many of Ker Reischel and Pugh or Mills very recent designs.

This leads me to consider very probable that the theory regarding gains in speed is not an absolute one and that the superior control of the boat in what regards easiness of sailing is much more at stake here.

On a solo boat or in a boat sailed day and night in harsh conditions a more easy to sail boat can translate in a faster boat while on a regatta with a full crew it is possible to have the concentration and skill to dispense that easiness in what regards top performance meaning that even if it is much more dificult to sail (but slightly faster) a top sailor's crew will be able to go faster.

Looking at the subject this way it is clear why it makes sense to use chines on cruising boats, since it as not to do with absolute speed but mostly with a better and easier boat control. It is not by accident that the improvements in rigging and design coming from open solo racers are the ones that have a more direct and faster utilization on cruising boats. Like on solo racers on cruising boats easiness is a very important characteristic in what regards sailing.
..
I would like the collaboration of all regarding this subject, I mean if chines regarding solo boats, short crewed racing boats or long distance offshore racers seem to be a reality in modern top performance designs, in what regards top performance regatta boats things are not so clear and I would say that chines are not a performance option...or maybe they are and are not so widely used yet.

I would like to follow that trend here (regatta boats) and I ask the collaboration of all in what regards to have a look at new designs: are the chines an advantage in this case, or not? The answer relates in knowing if the chines relates with an absolute sailing performance or relates with a better control with a small loss of absolute performance, better control that in some cases can translate in better overall performance.

Only interested in very recent designs since only those will be relevant:

Just for starters:

The Farr 400 has chines:



The Ker 40 and the none of the TP 50 (that I know off) has chines:





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post #5962 of 6763 Old 02-03-2014
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Re: Pelicano Missing In Action

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So good news. You have a ELan Dealer and a Salona dealer on the States.
I don't know if you had saw the recent posts about the Salona 33 and the Elan 320?

Here they are:

Interesting Sailboats

Interesting Sailboats

I would say that the Salona is a better regatta boat and the Elan a better solo one. Both has dealers in the US and the Salona 33 is going to be at the Miami boat show. If I was you I would say to both dealers that you are undecided between the two boats and that you are going to race the boat. A motivated dealer can really bring the prices down

Regards

Paulo
Yes, I saw the posts on the Elan 310, which is what made me realize that thinking about the 210 was the wrong way to think. Will take a look at the Salona 33 (alas, not at the Miami boat show, though I wish I was in Miami right now), as well. Most of my sailing will be solo or d/h and not regattas. For regattas I've got the Laser or the Swan 42.

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post #5963 of 6763 Old 02-03-2014
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Re: Pelicano Missing In Action

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Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
Yes, I saw the posts on the Elan 310, which is what made me realize that thinking about the 210 was the wrong way to think. Will take a look at the Salona 33 (alas, not at the Miami boat show, though I wish I was in Miami right now), as well. Most of my sailing will be solo or d/h and not regattas. For regattas I've got the Laser or the Swan 42.
If you consider Elan 320 and Salona 33, why not looking for a used Archambault 35? There are many on the market at a very good price and the build quality seems better to me. On top, it is a lot faster than those 2...
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post #5964 of 6763 Old 02-03-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

paulo - chines were developed in the open classes imoca 60 and VOR 70 first...
these boats have very definite performance criteria since they are optimized for fast downwind sailing and they are designed to a box rule which limits beam also... and that is the reason why all those boats have a fat butt, submerged transoms and vertical sides - to get the most beam at dwl... these boats are meant to be sailed as upright as possible with the least amount of heel...
but all these designs are not good to windward - period.
i posted once a polar from one of the open 60 (neutrogena it was) and the points of sail these boats operate are ~90 going from 50 to about 140 TWA:


when the VOR 70 got introduced in 2005-06 very few had hard chines and those which had, had them not very pronounced and very far aft and high...
the first imoca 60 with hard chines was safran from 2006: Projects - VPLP Design
from the same designers are now the latest and fastest generation open 60 banque populaire and macif, which do not show such pronounced chines - they have something like a tumble home...
Projects - VPLP Design

if we go away from the box rule boats of these classes and look at maxis - i know of only one which follows these designs and that is rambler 100 (looks like a blown up vor70 to me.. ) all the other maxis are rather slender and not that beamy hence better windward abilities but slower downwind...
we remember what happened this year in the sydney hobart race, where headwinds limited the former rambler...

in my opinion it is a question of the design envelope - you want to sail on all points of sail, or do you prefer fast downwind sailing only?
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post #5965 of 6763 Old 02-03-2014 Thread Starter
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Re: Pelicano Missing In Action

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Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
Yes, I saw the posts on the Elan 310, which is what made me realize that thinking about the 210 was the wrong way to think. Will take a look at the Salona 33 (alas, not at the Miami boat show, though I wish I was in Miami right now), as well. Most of my sailing will be solo or d/h and not regattas. For regattas I've got the Laser or the Swan 42.
On that size of boats I would also ask about First 35 prices. prices of boats are a function of many things, even more if you are in the US and one can be a much interesting deal than another. Probably for what you want the best boat is the Elan 320, it is also the one with more interior space and better storage. they have a sportier version lighter with a bigger keel.

Anyway regarding the First 35, that I think is going to be replaced soon, take into consideration that it make 3th on the the last ORCI World Championship.

Regards

Paulo


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post #5966 of 6763 Old 02-03-2014 Thread Starter
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Chines

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Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
...
in my opinion it is a question of the design envelope - you want to sail on all points of sail, or do you prefer fast downwind sailing only?
That's a simplistic approach. Yes chines are used mostly to make downwind sailing more effective and much less useful upwind. But even some very recent regatta boats that sail as much upwind as downwind and offshore racers for mixed conditions use chines, being the more known case the Farr 400 that is not a downwind boat.



Many other IRC racers and top cruiser-racers used for IRC and good overall performance and conditions use chines.

Some other top racing recent IRC designs with chines, from Farr, Botin, Judel-Vrolijk and Simonis:











The point here is how much it is possible to improve downwind sailing without prejudice of upwind sailing. That is the balance between the two that counts in what regards overall speed. Also how much we can improve sailing easiness without degrading too much performance in a way that the performance is better. That balance too is very important.

There is the misconception that the bigger the beam the better the boat will be downwind. In fact that is not true and I am not even sure that in absolute terms chines make a boat faster downwind, just easier and that can be translated in some cases in faster, but not always.

Regards

Paulo


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Last edited by PCP; 02-03-2014 at 01:46 PM.
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Re: Pelicano Missing In Action

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Originally Posted by robelz View Post
If you consider Elan 320 and Salona 33, why not looking for a used Archambault 35? There are many on the market at a very good price and the build quality seems better to me. On top, it is a lot faster than those 2...
Robelz - There's one A35 in North America (in San Francisco - I've been aboard that boat and spoken with the owner: not for sale). There's also one A31 in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada, which is for sale, at a very good price. I've had my eye on that boat, seeing as the A31 is very competitive in the TransQuadra, and would certainly consider it (though would prefer a different keel). More to the point, however, is that the Elan 320 has a bit more cruising comfort that appeals to the wife, for whom anything too performance oriented strikes fear into her heart.

I've raced on an Elan 40 in San Francisco Bay, and I can tell you that it was one well-built boat, and quite competitive under IRC (having won the Rolex Big Boat Regatta and finished second on other occasions). A bit heavy, perhaps, due to the interior comforts, but of course IRC rewards that. But it certainly took a beating in SF Bay and I never saw any indication that it suffered from that, in terms of stiffness or delamination, etc.

Best,

MrP

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Re: Chines, cruising and racing

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I have posted this on another thread, that one already mentioned about chines:



I would like the collaboration of all regarding this subject, I mean if chines regarding solo boats, short crewed racing boats or long distance offshore racers seem to be a reality in modern top performance designs, in what regards top performance regatta boats things are not so clear and I would say that chines are not a performance option...or maybe they are and are not so widely used yet.

I would like to follow that trend here (regatta boats) and I ask the collaboration of all in what regards to have a look at new designs: are the chines an advantage in this case, or not? The answer relates in knowing if the chines relates with an absolute sailing performance or relates with a better control with a small loss of absolute performance, better control that in some cases can translate in better overall performance.

]
Though I don't think I am qualified to express a competent opinion, I disagree that a hard chined hull will contribute to better control on a crusing boat. May be downwind in fresh wind when planing the boat will be more stable but this will not be in displacement mode which is most of the cases for a cruising boat. In other conditions and points of sail, a hard chined hull may punish less experienced sailors both in speed and comfort if they do not manage to match the right angle of heel and thus benefiting from the hard chine. Besides, I think that in light winds there will be more drag. I believe the soft chined hull is the most versatile hull form for crusing in all conditions and on all points of sail. And there are some practical reasons as well - for example, if you run aground and you want to move weight on one board (even hanging on the boom moved outboard) in order to get maximum heel, the hard chine will restrict the heel though it is desired in this particular case.
My point of view is that a hard chined hull will be more efficient in terms of speed if "drived" properly by experienced sailors and may be will add more control in particular downwind fast sailing. I also think that the hard chines' benefits are still controversial and will not become a straightforward trend in racing. As far as cruising boats are concerned I remain sceptical that they will be accepted on the long term as better hull forms.


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Rumen
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post #5969 of 6763 Old 02-03-2014 Thread Starter
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Re: Chines, cruising and racing

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Though I don't think I am qualified to express a competent opinion, I disagree that a hard chined hull will contribute to better control on a crusing boat. May be downwind in fresh wind when planing the boat will be more stable but this will not be in displacement mode which is most of the cases for a cruising boat. In other conditions and points of sail, a hard chined hull may punish less experienced sailors both in speed and comfort if they do not manage to match the right angle of heel and thus benefiting from the hard chine. ...
And why do you say that? do you think that Benetau, Jeanneau, Dufour ( and some of the world's best Na that work for them) and many others would be making cruising boats with chines if that would make them "punish less experienced sailors both in speed and comfort"?

Those boats are designed to be easily sailed by inexperienced sailors and on those boats chines have nothing to do with planing speeds that almost never will be experienced on those sail boats and never with the typical cruiser to whom they point.

Contrary to what you think chines are there to make easy to put and maintain the boat on a "groove" and limiting heel. Putting the boat there is very easy: he will go easily to the chine and will stop heeling there. You have to try really hard to make the boat sail over the chine and that means an overpowered boat that will be making lots of drag and that should be reefed to sail faster and better.

Downwind the chines on the typical cruisers like the Beneteau are there to making sailing more easy, not for planing. They will very effectively limit any possibility of roll to very small angles while on a boat without chines, specially if it has a narrow hull, roll downwind in some occasions will be a concern an demand an experienced hand at the wheel to maintain it under control. With beamy cruising boats with chines like the Beneteau, you can sail downwind on autopilot on the conditions that would be challenging to a narrow boat.

Regarding reducing performance upwind, it all depend on the chines and hull design (on a previous post I posted some IRC racing boats with chines) but in what regards Beneteau's the hull design (and not only the chines) will limit heel and therefore upwind performance. Even so the cruising sail performance with very small angles of heel is surprisingly good as well as the speed. Of course, they are not performance boats neither the performance will match one.

Regards

Paulo


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post #5970 of 6763 Old 02-03-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

"And why do you say that? do you think that Benetau, Jeanneau, Dufour ( and some of the world's best Na that work for them) and many others would be making cruising boats with chines if that would make them "punish less experienced sailors both in speed and comfort"?"

If this is true, and it may be, then why does the new Farr designed Bavaria 51 have no chines? Is the Farr office behind the times. They put chines on their high performance boats. Why not here? Does Farr not know what he is doing?

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