Interesting Sailboats - Page 598 - SailNet Community
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post #5971 of 6763 Old 02-03-2014 Thread Starter
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Bavaria's Chines

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
"And why do you say that? do you think that Benetau, Jeanneau, Dufour ( and some of the world's best Na that work for them) and many others would be making cruising boats with chines if that would make them "punish less experienced sailors both in speed and comfort"?"

If this is true, and it may be, then why does the new Farr designed Bavaria 51 have no chines? Is the Farr office behind the times. They put chines on their high performance boats. Why not here? Does Farr not know what he is doing?
Yes I believe that Farr know what he is doing and I even believe that if he has a free hand he would but chines on the Bavaria. Bavaria's clients are more conservative than any other European mass production brand and conservative clients take time to "like" new improvements. However I will gladdly bet with you that in less than 5 years we will see Bavarias with chines

Anyway as you know the type and shape of hull is more important that having chines or not and Bavaria's hulls are not globally that different than the other mass production builders, particularly Jeanneau and Hanse, chines or no chines

Regards

Paulo


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post #5972 of 6763 Old 02-03-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

You could be right Paulo. I really know little about Bavaria's market target.

I think you make a very good point in differentiating chines for control and chines for boat speed. I remain a bit skeptical about the ability to push a chined cruiser hard uipwind. But perhaps you are not supposed to push one of these boat hard upwind. I would have to sail one myself to see what happens after that chine is immersed. While that distinct "shoulder" in the stability curve has its benefits I think there is also a down side to it when the boat is pushed beyond the shoulder.

Even on a high powered boat chines can help control. I raced a Tasar dinghy for a few years and it had chines. Off the wind the Tasar would plane quickly and effortlessly. One on a plane the Tasar became very stable and was very easy to drive. The round bilge Laser is not very stable on a plane.

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post #5973 of 6763 Old 02-03-2014
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Re: Chines

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
That's a simplistic approach. Yes chines are used mostly to make downwind sailing more effective and much less useful upwind. But even some very recent regatta boats that sail as much upwind as downwind and offshore racers for mixed conditions use chines, being the more known case the Farr 400 that is not a downwind boat.
yes it is...
Quote:
Many other IRC racers and top cruiser-racers used for IRC and good overall performance and conditions use chines.

Some other top racing recent IRC designs with chines, from Farr, Botin, Judel-Vrolijk and Simonis:

The point here is how much it is possible to improve downwind sailing without prejudice of upwind sailing. That is the balance between the two that counts in what regards overall speed. Also how much we can improve sailing easiness without degrading too much performance in a way that the performance is better. That balance too is very important.

There is the misconception that the bigger the beam the better the boat will be downwind. In fact that is not true and I am not even sure that in absolute terms chines make a boat faster downwind, just easier and that can be translated in some cases in faster, but not always.

Regards

Paulo
i think that the designers try hard to make the boats fast on every point of sail.. but all of this development derived from round the world racing boats always going with prevailing wind and currents...
and not only since the round-the-bouy-races have been introduced to the VOR designers seek a way to make those boats fast to windward without loosing their ability downwinds... hence the massive water ballast...
for sure those boats need to be easy on the helm for really fast downwind, because that is their main purpose - surfing the waves with 30+ knots...

what i tried to point out in my former post was essentially something else...
try to push a good downwind runner into a box which limits beam... you will get vertical sides and chines...
and now think outside that box and then factor in fashion and "proved" design...
if i would go hard chines, i would ask myself, why are motorboat hulls so much different from sailboat hulls even if they go at the same speed (20-30 knots)?
i would take a completely different approach - like this (lifting strakes from the bow to the transom - i like the rig as well... ):
http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/P...on%20SNAME.pdf
or probably this - really pronounced lifting strakes:
The Universal Hull by Warwick Collins | My Wooden Boat of the Week
and both of them do have some resemblance - the V-bottom, no or very minor rocker with those strakes to the sides... and both hulls work(ed)...
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post #5974 of 6763 Old 02-03-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

and i forgot to mention that we talk here about planing hulls - and NOT hulls which only operate in displacement mode...
and now show me any of these mass-production cruisers with their hard chines aft ever reaching planing speeds...
the racing derivates like all the pogos leave aside please... benetaus, jeanneus, bavaris, hanses and that kind of breed is what i am talking about...

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post #5975 of 6763 Old 02-03-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

There is no question among designers that chines help a lot when you have a light, high powered boat operating off the wind where surfing or some type of borderline planing is possible. If you are sailing a boat at twice displ hull speed you need dead flat butts and a wide stern, just like a powerboat! This we know.

One problem in this thread is to continue to look at this like a 2 dimensional problem. It is a complex problem and simplified answers for one boat will not be the answers for another boat. I don't think there are any simplified answers.



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post #5976 of 6763 Old 02-03-2014
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Re: Chines

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post

There is the misconception that the bigger the beam the better the boat will be downwind. In fact that is not true and I am not even sure that in absolute terms chines make a boat faster downwind, just easier and that can be translated in some cases in faster, but not always.

Regards

Paulo
This is true. The fastest boats in a upwind-downwind course was the last America's Cup monohulls, and those boats are very narrow. Some are still sailing.
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post #5977 of 6763 Old 02-03-2014 Thread Starter
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Re: Chines

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
yes it is...


i think that the designers try hard to make the boats fast on every point of sail.. but all of this development derived from round the world racing boats always going with prevailing wind and currents...
and not only since the round-the-bouy-races have been introduced to the VOR designers seek a way to make those boats fast to windward without loosing their ability downwinds... hence the massive water ballast...
for sure those boats need to be easy on the helm for really fast downwind, because that is their main purpose - surfing the waves with 30+ knots...

what i tried to point out in my former post was essentially something else...
try to push a good downwind runner into a box which limits beam... you will get vertical sides and chines...
and now think outside that box and then factor in fashion and "proved" design...
if i would go hard chines, i would ask myself, why are motorboat hulls so much different from sailboat hulls even if they go at the same speed (20-30 knots)?
i would take a completely different approach - like this (lifting strakes from the bow to the transom - i like the rig as well... ):
http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/P...on%20SNAME.pdf
or probably this - really pronounced lifting strakes:
The Universal Hull by Warwick Collins | My Wooden Boat of the Week
and both of them do have some resemblance - the V-bottom, no or very minor rocker with those strakes to the sides... and both hulls work(ed)...
I do not understand very well your post. The fact that chines have been developed in solo racers as nothing with the fact of being used also on IRC racers. In fact the hull design is very different from the one of an Open boats and the chines too. The IRC racers are designed to sail with a lot more heel upwind and that makes the hull different as well as the chines (when they have chines).

Regarding Sponberg Open 60,

http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/P...on%20SNAME.pdf

a much more narrower boat than the ones that were designed by the French Na, I remember well the story and his claims that the boat would be faster than any other. The boat did not work as previewed, never had been competitive, it was very dificult to sail solo and disappeared rapidly from the racing solo scene.

You have the idea that the Open 60's sail badly upwind. In fact without being a boat optimized for upwind sailing their velocity made good is pretty impressive for a boat maximized for downwind sailing. The angle to the wind is bigger than the one of a narrow boat but they compensate with a bigger power and speed some degrees off. Maybe you don't know that for many years the world sailing circumnavigation record against the prevailing wind belonged to an Open 60. Of course a VOR 70 is even better upwind than an Open 60 but not as good as a narrower boat optimized for upwind performance.

It is all a question of balance but IRC boats have to have a pretty good balance between upwind and downwind sailing otherwise they will not win races.

Regards

Paulo


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post #5978 of 6763 Old 02-03-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo:
I agree with you. Beam per se is not fast.

Look at any rating rule. Beam is always on the slow side of the equasion.
But sometimes beam means power, stability, sail carrying power. So in some cases more beam pays off with more boat speed.

Forget that hull beam can equal power. What if you could get power without increasing the beam of the hull? Look at the AC cats. They have beam but the get it by talking two extremely narrow hulls and spreading them apart. You don't see AC cats with beamy hulls.

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post #5979 of 6763 Old 02-03-2014 Thread Starter
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Re: Chines

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiasDePlaya View Post
This is true. The fastest boats in a upwind-downwind course was the last America's Cup monohulls, and those boats are very narrow. Some are still sailing.
I don't think that is true, except under some conditions like for instance light winds. At the time they were very unsatisfied with the boats that were heavy and could not plan downwind. Certainly very fast upwind but not the best balance upwind/downwind.

Regards

Paulo


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post #5980 of 6763 Old 02-03-2014 Thread Starter
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Oceanis 41 - Sun Odyssey 409, two different concepts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
You could be right Paulo. I really know little about Bavaria's market target.

I think you make a very good point in differentiating chines for control and chines for boat speed. I remain a bit skeptical about the ability to push a chined cruiser hard uipwind. But perhaps you are not supposed to push one of these boat hard upwind. I would have to sail one myself to see what happens after that chine is immersed. While that distinct "shoulder" in the stability curve has its benefits I think there is also a down side to it when the boat is pushed beyond the shoulder.

Even on a high powered boat chines can help control. I raced a Tasar dinghy for a few years and it had chines. Off the wind the Tasar would plane quickly and effortlessly. One on a plane the Tasar became very stable and was very easy to drive. The round bilge Laser is not very stable on a plane.
I know that on a high powered boats chines can help control. I am not sure if they can improve speed out of the one a better control of the boat would provide.

Regarding cruising boats and chines you cannot put all on the same bag. Even in what regards main mass market cruisers some of them (with chines) have very different hulls and sail characteristics.

From the Sense and Oceanis Beneteau line probably, taking away the new 38, the 41 is the more "sportive" and even so it is not a boat to be "pushed" upwind. You would not gain nothing except increasing drag and loss of speed putting its chine immersed.

Even on very fast performance boats like the Pogo 12.50 you don't push the boat upwind like a narrow boat. You would gain nothing in going as much as the boat can go upwind with a lot of heel. On boats like that you go a bit more out of the wind at a superior speed and in the end the VMG is about the same as a more traditional performance cruiser like the First 40 for example. Downwind and on a beam reach the Pogo will be faster.

Back to main market cruisers, if you compare the Jeanneau 409 with the Oceanis 41 you will find out that they have both chines but very different hulls and that the Jeanneau can take much more heel upwind and point a bit better. On the Benetau line if you want a better performance boat and one that points better you have the First line. On the Dufour the same, you have the performance line. The Jeanneau has only a line and perhaps is why the boat is an overall more balanced sailing boat.

Not saying that the Jeanneau is a better cruising boat than the Oceanis: Sailing decently, including upwind with little heel and a maximum of interior and cockpit space can be and certainly is what many sailors would prefer even if I would prefer the better sailing performance of the Jeanneau 409...but then I would prefer a Beneteau First to a Jeanneau. Different courses for different horses

Some pictures and movies that will help to understand what I am talking about and the differences between these two different mass production cruisers with chines.















Regards

Paulo


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Last edited by PCP; 02-03-2014 at 07:44 PM.
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