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  #5971  
Old 02-03-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

"there will be a smaller mast, reduced sail area and a system for manouvres slightly adapted..."
still - incredible if this monster is sailed solo...
the main alone has 450 mē... a whole family with 4 generations could live comfortably in a place that big...
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  #5972  
Old 02-03-2014
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Solo sailing and power

I had the same doubts regarding Groupama, now Banque Populaire V on the last Route du Rhum. At the time the boat had finished to beat the world circumnavigation absolute record with Cammas and his crew and even some on the crew doubted that the boat could be sailed solo.

The rest is history, not only Cammas sailed successfully the boat solo as he won the race. Today we look at Armel on the same boat beating record after record and it seems almost easy

But one thing is to know if the boat can be sailed solo and I am pretty sure it can, even if the boat is bigger, other is to know if the power will be not too much to be handled for a solo sailor and if on account of that Armel on the smaller and less powerful boat would not be faster.

That had happened already on Open60 (Imoca) where today's fastest boats are not the more powerful (some of previous generation boats were more powerful).

In fact the future generation boats will all be less powerful since they have cut on the maximum allowed RM and contrary for instance with VOR, they are going to compete directly with the lighter and more powerful boats. It is going to be very interesting to see if the gains in design and more freedom in what regards design (water tanks) will be enough to compensate the weight and power disadvantage. There are some that doubt about that.
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  #5973  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

agreed.
but armel le cleach is on a different tri... BP VII is 8.5 m shorter, has "only" a 33.5 m mast and the total sail area on a close haul is 411 mē...
compare that with BP V - 40 m length, 47 m mast and as posted, the main alone has 450 mē... BP V was designed for crewed sailing and it is mentioned that they are going to reduce mast and sail area to make it manageable for a single sailor...
BP VII in fact is not so far above an open 60 when we talk sail area and mast height which armel sailed on various occasions around the globe already...

i am completely with you in regards manageable power and that slightly less powerful boats might be faster since they are easier to sail and therefor easier to bring to their designed speed...
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  #5974  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
agreed.
but armel le cleach is on a different tri... BP VII is 8.5 m shorter, has "only" a 33.5 m mast and the total sail area on a close haul is 411 mē...
compare that with BP V - 40 m length, 47 m mast and as posted, the main alone has 450 mē... BP V was designed for crewed sailing and it is mentioned that they are going to reduce mast and sail area to make it manageable for a single sailor...
BP VII in fact is not so far above an open 60 when we talk sail area and mast height which armel sailed on various occasions around the globe already...

i am completely with you in regards manageable power and that slightly less powerful boats might be faster since they are easier to sail and therefor easier to bring to their designed speed...
Grupama, the one that Cammas sailed solo was also designed for crewed sailing, as I have said they had just finished to beat the world's circumnavigation record that was later beat by Peyron on the one that is actually Spindrift. I don't think that in the Grupama case the mast was shortened but all the running rigging was modified.

It is a case to see what is possible or not but I believe that there is a limit and maybe Spindrift is just too big...or maybe not

Regards

Paulo
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  #5975  
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Chines, cruising and racing

I have posted this on another thread, that one already mentioned about chines:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
...

This discussion led me to look at the subject with more attention. Regarding chines I had already seeing designers defending them in what regards absolute gains in speed but I like pragmatism and reality over theory and it is so simple as this: If chines represented an effective gain in speed, in what regards top racing and top racing designers, everyone would be using them. Of course as it is a relatively new thing and the gains are small it would take time to spread but it will spread inevitably to all, otherwise even small that difference would make the boats less competitive.

So, I had a look at top racing boats and new designs and a separation appears very clearly: Practically all solo boats, boats that are to be sailed with short crews or offshore over huge distances, extensively even with a crew, have them.

Many, maybe even most, of the top regatta crewed boats don't have them even if recent designs. For instance the TP 52 don't have them or many of Ker Reischel and Pugh or Mills very recent designs.

This leads me to consider very probable that the theory regarding gains in speed is not an absolute one and that the superior control of the boat in what regards easiness of sailing is much more at stake here.

On a solo boat or in a boat sailed day and night in harsh conditions a more easy to sail boat can translate in a faster boat while on a regatta with a full crew it is possible to have the concentration and skill to dispense that easiness in what regards top performance meaning that even if it is much more dificult to sail (but slightly faster) a top sailor's crew will be able to go faster.

Looking at the subject this way it is clear why it makes sense to use chines on cruising boats, since it as not to do with absolute speed but mostly with a better and easier boat control. It is not by accident that the improvements in rigging and design coming from open solo racers are the ones that have a more direct and faster utilization on cruising boats. Like on solo racers on cruising boats easiness is a very important characteristic in what regards sailing.
..
I would like the collaboration of all regarding this subject, I mean if chines regarding solo boats, short crewed racing boats or long distance offshore racers seem to be a reality in modern top performance designs, in what regards top performance regatta boats things are not so clear and I would say that chines are not a performance option...or maybe they are and are not so widely used yet.

I would like to follow that trend here (regatta boats) and I ask the collaboration of all in what regards to have a look at new designs: are the chines an advantage in this case, or not? The answer relates in knowing if the chines relates with an absolute sailing performance or relates with a better control with a small loss of absolute performance, better control that in some cases can translate in better overall performance.

Only interested in very recent designs since only those will be relevant:

Just for starters:

The Farr 400 has chines:



The Ker 40 and the none of the TP 50 (that I know off) has chines:



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  #5976  
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Re: Pelicano Missing In Action

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
So good news. You have a ELan Dealer and a Salona dealer on the States.
I don't know if you had saw the recent posts about the Salona 33 and the Elan 320?

Here they are:

Interesting Sailboats

Interesting Sailboats

I would say that the Salona is a better regatta boat and the Elan a better solo one. Both has dealers in the US and the Salona 33 is going to be at the Miami boat show. If I was you I would say to both dealers that you are undecided between the two boats and that you are going to race the boat. A motivated dealer can really bring the prices down

Regards

Paulo
Yes, I saw the posts on the Elan 310, which is what made me realize that thinking about the 210 was the wrong way to think. Will take a look at the Salona 33 (alas, not at the Miami boat show, though I wish I was in Miami right now), as well. Most of my sailing will be solo or d/h and not regattas. For regattas I've got the Laser or the Swan 42.
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  #5977  
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Re: Pelicano Missing In Action

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
Yes, I saw the posts on the Elan 310, which is what made me realize that thinking about the 210 was the wrong way to think. Will take a look at the Salona 33 (alas, not at the Miami boat show, though I wish I was in Miami right now), as well. Most of my sailing will be solo or d/h and not regattas. For regattas I've got the Laser or the Swan 42.
If you consider Elan 320 and Salona 33, why not looking for a used Archambault 35? There are many on the market at a very good price and the build quality seems better to me. On top, it is a lot faster than those 2...
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  #5978  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

paulo - chines were developed in the open classes imoca 60 and VOR 70 first...
these boats have very definite performance criteria since they are optimized for fast downwind sailing and they are designed to a box rule which limits beam also... and that is the reason why all those boats have a fat butt, submerged transoms and vertical sides - to get the most beam at dwl... these boats are meant to be sailed as upright as possible with the least amount of heel...
but all these designs are not good to windward - period.
i posted once a polar from one of the open 60 (neutrogena it was) and the points of sail these boats operate are ~90° going from 50° to about 140° TWA:


when the VOR 70 got introduced in 2005-06 very few had hard chines and those which had, had them not very pronounced and very far aft and high...
the first imoca 60 with hard chines was safran from 2006: Projects - VPLP Design
from the same designers are now the latest and fastest generation open 60 banque populaire and macif, which do not show such pronounced chines - they have something like a tumble home...
Projects - VPLP Design

if we go away from the box rule boats of these classes and look at maxis - i know of only one which follows these designs and that is rambler 100 (looks like a blown up vor70 to me.. ) all the other maxis are rather slender and not that beamy hence better windward abilities but slower downwind...
we remember what happened this year in the sydney hobart race, where headwinds limited the former rambler...

in my opinion it is a question of the design envelope - you want to sail on all points of sail, or do you prefer fast downwind sailing only?
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  #5979  
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Re: Pelicano Missing In Action

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
Yes, I saw the posts on the Elan 310, which is what made me realize that thinking about the 210 was the wrong way to think. Will take a look at the Salona 33 (alas, not at the Miami boat show, though I wish I was in Miami right now), as well. Most of my sailing will be solo or d/h and not regattas. For regattas I've got the Laser or the Swan 42.
On that size of boats I would also ask about First 35 prices. prices of boats are a function of many things, even more if you are in the US and one can be a much interesting deal than another. Probably for what you want the best boat is the Elan 320, it is also the one with more interior space and better storage. they have a sportier version lighter with a bigger keel.

Anyway regarding the First 35, that I think is going to be replaced soon, take into consideration that it make 3th on the the last ORCI World Championship.

Regards

Paulo
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  #5980  
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Chines

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
...
in my opinion it is a question of the design envelope - you want to sail on all points of sail, or do you prefer fast downwind sailing only?
That's a simplistic approach. Yes chines are used mostly to make downwind sailing more effective and much less useful upwind. But even some very recent regatta boats that sail as much upwind as downwind and offshore racers for mixed conditions use chines, being the more known case the Farr 400 that is not a downwind boat.



Many other IRC racers and top cruiser-racers used for IRC and good overall performance and conditions use chines.

Some other top racing recent IRC designs with chines, from Farr, Botin, Judel-Vrolijk and Simonis:











The point here is how much it is possible to improve downwind sailing without prejudice of upwind sailing. That is the balance between the two that counts in what regards overall speed. Also how much we can improve sailing easiness without degrading too much performance in a way that the performance is better. That balance too is very important.

There is the misconception that the bigger the beam the better the boat will be downwind. In fact that is not true and I am not even sure that in absolute terms chines make a boat faster downwind, just easier and that can be translated in some cases in faster, but not always.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-03-2014 at 01:46 PM.
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