Interesting Sailboats - Page 599 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree1266Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #5981  
Old 02-03-2014
MrPelicano's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Western Connecticut, USA
Posts: 719
Thanks: 10
Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts
Rep Power: 3
MrPelicano is on a distinguished road
Re: Pelicano Missing In Action

Quote:
Originally Posted by robelz View Post
If you consider Elan 320 and Salona 33, why not looking for a used Archambault 35? There are many on the market at a very good price and the build quality seems better to me. On top, it is a lot faster than those 2...
Robelz - There's one A35 in North America (in San Francisco - I've been aboard that boat and spoken with the owner: not for sale). There's also one A31 in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada, which is for sale, at a very good price. I've had my eye on that boat, seeing as the A31 is very competitive in the TransQuadra, and would certainly consider it (though would prefer a different keel). More to the point, however, is that the Elan 320 has a bit more cruising comfort that appeals to the wife, for whom anything too performance oriented strikes fear into her heart.

I've raced on an Elan 40 in San Francisco Bay, and I can tell you that it was one well-built boat, and quite competitive under IRC (having won the Rolex Big Boat Regatta and finished second on other occasions). A bit heavy, perhaps, due to the interior comforts, but of course IRC rewards that. But it certainly took a beating in SF Bay and I never saw any indication that it suffered from that, in terms of stiffness or delamination, etc.

Best,

MrP
__________________
We deal in lead, friend.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #5982  
Old 02-03-2014
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Posts: 168
Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 3
olianta is on a distinguished road
Re: Chines, cruising and racing

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I have posted this on another thread, that one already mentioned about chines:



I would like the collaboration of all regarding this subject, I mean if chines regarding solo boats, short crewed racing boats or long distance offshore racers seem to be a reality in modern top performance designs, in what regards top performance regatta boats things are not so clear and I would say that chines are not a performance option...or maybe they are and are not so widely used yet.

I would like to follow that trend here (regatta boats) and I ask the collaboration of all in what regards to have a look at new designs: are the chines an advantage in this case, or not? The answer relates in knowing if the chines relates with an absolute sailing performance or relates with a better control with a small loss of absolute performance, better control that in some cases can translate in better overall performance.

]
Though I don't think I am qualified to express a competent opinion, I disagree that a hard chined hull will contribute to better control on a crusing boat. May be downwind in fresh wind when planing the boat will be more stable but this will not be in displacement mode which is most of the cases for a cruising boat. In other conditions and points of sail, a hard chined hull may punish less experienced sailors both in speed and comfort if they do not manage to match the right angle of heel and thus benefiting from the hard chine. Besides, I think that in light winds there will be more drag. I believe the soft chined hull is the most versatile hull form for crusing in all conditions and on all points of sail. And there are some practical reasons as well - for example, if you run aground and you want to move weight on one board (even hanging on the boom moved outboard) in order to get maximum heel, the hard chine will restrict the heel though it is desired in this particular case.
My point of view is that a hard chined hull will be more efficient in terms of speed if "drived" properly by experienced sailors and may be will add more control in particular downwind fast sailing. I also think that the hard chines' benefits are still controversial and will not become a straightforward trend in racing. As far as cruising boats are concerned I remain sceptical that they will be accepted on the long term as better hull forms.


Regard
Rumen
capt vimes likes this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #5983  
Old 02-03-2014
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,177
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Chines, cruising and racing

Quote:
Originally Posted by olianta View Post
Though I don't think I am qualified to express a competent opinion, I disagree that a hard chined hull will contribute to better control on a crusing boat. May be downwind in fresh wind when planing the boat will be more stable but this will not be in displacement mode which is most of the cases for a cruising boat. In other conditions and points of sail, a hard chined hull may punish less experienced sailors both in speed and comfort if they do not manage to match the right angle of heel and thus benefiting from the hard chine. ...
And why do you say that? do you think that Benetau, Jeanneau, Dufour ( and some of the world's best Na that work for them) and many others would be making cruising boats with chines if that would make them "punish less experienced sailors both in speed and comfort"?

Those boats are designed to be easily sailed by inexperienced sailors and on those boats chines have nothing to do with planing speeds that almost never will be experienced on those sail boats and never with the typical cruiser to whom they point.

Contrary to what you think chines are there to make easy to put and maintain the boat on a "groove" and limiting heel. Putting the boat there is very easy: he will go easily to the chine and will stop heeling there. You have to try really hard to make the boat sail over the chine and that means an overpowered boat that will be making lots of drag and that should be reefed to sail faster and better.

Downwind the chines on the typical cruisers like the Beneteau are there to making sailing more easy, not for planing. They will very effectively limit any possibility of roll to very small angles while on a boat without chines, specially if it has a narrow hull, roll downwind in some occasions will be a concern an demand an experienced hand at the wheel to maintain it under control. With beamy cruising boats with chines like the Beneteau, you can sail downwind on autopilot on the conditions that would be challenging to a narrow boat.

Regarding reducing performance upwind, it all depend on the chines and hull design (on a previous post I posted some IRC racing boats with chines) but in what regards Beneteau's the hull design (and not only the chines) will limit heel and therefore upwind performance. Even so the cruising sail performance with very small angles of heel is surprisingly good as well as the speed. Of course, they are not performance boats neither the performance will match one.

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #5984  
Old 02-03-2014
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,774
Thanks: 1
Thanked 77 Times in 73 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Interesting Sailboats

"And why do you say that? do you think that Benetau, Jeanneau, Dufour ( and some of the world's best Na that work for them) and many others would be making cruising boats with chines if that would make them "punish less experienced sailors both in speed and comfort"?"

If this is true, and it may be, then why does the new Farr designed Bavaria 51 have no chines? Is the Farr office behind the times. They put chines on their high performance boats. Why not here? Does Farr not know what he is doing?
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #5985  
Old 02-03-2014
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,177
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Bavaria's Chines

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
"And why do you say that? do you think that Benetau, Jeanneau, Dufour ( and some of the world's best Na that work for them) and many others would be making cruising boats with chines if that would make them "punish less experienced sailors both in speed and comfort"?"

If this is true, and it may be, then why does the new Farr designed Bavaria 51 have no chines? Is the Farr office behind the times. They put chines on their high performance boats. Why not here? Does Farr not know what he is doing?
Yes I believe that Farr know what he is doing and I even believe that if he has a free hand he would but chines on the Bavaria. Bavaria's clients are more conservative than any other European mass production brand and conservative clients take time to "like" new improvements. However I will gladdly bet with you that in less than 5 years we will see Bavarias with chines

Anyway as you know the type and shape of hull is more important that having chines or not and Bavaria's hulls are not globally that different than the other mass production builders, particularly Jeanneau and Hanse, chines or no chines

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 02-03-2014 at 02:41 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #5986  
Old 02-03-2014
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,774
Thanks: 1
Thanked 77 Times in 73 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Interesting Sailboats

You could be right Paulo. I really know little about Bavaria's market target.

I think you make a very good point in differentiating chines for control and chines for boat speed. I remain a bit skeptical about the ability to push a chined cruiser hard uipwind. But perhaps you are not supposed to push one of these boat hard upwind. I would have to sail one myself to see what happens after that chine is immersed. While that distinct "shoulder" in the stability curve has its benefits I think there is also a down side to it when the boat is pushed beyond the shoulder.

Even on a high powered boat chines can help control. I raced a Tasar dinghy for a few years and it had chines. Off the wind the Tasar would plane quickly and effortlessly. One on a plane the Tasar became very stable and was very easy to drive. The round bilge Laser is not very stable on a plane.
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #5987  
Old 02-03-2014
capt vimes's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 617
Thanks: 7
Thanked 17 Times in 17 Posts
Rep Power: 1
capt vimes is on a distinguished road
Re: Chines

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
That's a simplistic approach. Yes chines are used mostly to make downwind sailing more effective and much less useful upwind. But even some very recent regatta boats that sail as much upwind as downwind and offshore racers for mixed conditions use chines, being the more known case the Farr 400 that is not a downwind boat.
yes it is...
Quote:
Many other IRC racers and top cruiser-racers used for IRC and good overall performance and conditions use chines.

Some other top racing recent IRC designs with chines, from Farr, Botin, Judel-Vrolijk and Simonis:

The point here is how much it is possible to improve downwind sailing without prejudice of upwind sailing. That is the balance between the two that counts in what regards overall speed. Also how much we can improve sailing easiness without degrading too much performance in a way that the performance is better. That balance too is very important.

There is the misconception that the bigger the beam the better the boat will be downwind. In fact that is not true and I am not even sure that in absolute terms chines make a boat faster downwind, just easier and that can be translated in some cases in faster, but not always.

Regards

Paulo
i think that the designers try hard to make the boats fast on every point of sail.. but all of this development derived from round the world racing boats always going with prevailing wind and currents...
and not only since the round-the-bouy-races have been introduced to the VOR designers seek a way to make those boats fast to windward without loosing their ability downwinds... hence the massive water ballast...
for sure those boats need to be easy on the helm for really fast downwind, because that is their main purpose - surfing the waves with 30+ knots...

what i tried to point out in my former post was essentially something else...
try to push a good downwind runner into a box which limits beam... you will get vertical sides and chines...
and now think outside that box and then factor in fashion and "proved" design...
if i would go hard chines, i would ask myself, why are motorboat hulls so much different from sailboat hulls even if they go at the same speed (20-30 knots)?
i would take a completely different approach - like this (lifting strakes from the bow to the transom - i like the rig as well... ):
http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/P...on%20SNAME.pdf
or probably this - really pronounced lifting strakes:
The Universal Hull by Warwick Collins | My Wooden Boat of the Week
and both of them do have some resemblance - the V-bottom, no or very minor rocker with those strakes to the sides... and both hulls work(ed)...
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #5988  
Old 02-03-2014
capt vimes's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 617
Thanks: 7
Thanked 17 Times in 17 Posts
Rep Power: 1
capt vimes is on a distinguished road
Re: Interesting Sailboats

and i forgot to mention that we talk here about planing hulls - and NOT hulls which only operate in displacement mode...
and now show me any of these mass-production cruisers with their hard chines aft ever reaching planing speeds...
the racing derivates like all the pogos leave aside please... benetaus, jeanneus, bavaris, hanses and that kind of breed is what i am talking about...

Last edited by capt vimes; 02-03-2014 at 05:33 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #5989  
Old 02-03-2014
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,774
Thanks: 1
Thanked 77 Times in 73 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Interesting Sailboats

There is no question among designers that chines help a lot when you have a light, high powered boat operating off the wind where surfing or some type of borderline planing is possible. If you are sailing a boat at twice displ hull speed you need dead flat butts and a wide stern, just like a powerboat! This we know.

One problem in this thread is to continue to look at this like a 2 dimensional problem. It is a complex problem and simplified answers for one boat will not be the answers for another boat. I don't think there are any simplified answers.


__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #5990  
Old 02-03-2014
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Santiago, Chile
Posts: 212
Thanks: 4
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 13
DiasDePlaya is on a distinguished road
Re: Chines

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post

There is the misconception that the bigger the beam the better the boat will be downwind. In fact that is not true and I am not even sure that in absolute terms chines make a boat faster downwind, just easier and that can be translated in some cases in faster, but not always.

Regards

Paulo
This is true. The fastest boats in a upwind-downwind course was the last America's Cup monohulls, and those boats are very narrow. Some are still sailing.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 11 (0 members and 11 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cruising sailboats for sale welch Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 10 04-25-2012 05:20 PM
THE Yacht Builder List T37Chef Boat Review and Purchase Forum 26 07-08-2011 05:51 AM
Noob wonderings and questions about sailing, life at sail and sailboats Vans General Discussion (sailing related) 49 06-20-2011 12:18 AM
A List of ALL sailboats made with layouts? Myblueheaven Boat Review and Purchase Forum 8 10-08-2010 11:32 AM
Failure to Navigate - interesting post on Panbo Blog & from the NewsReader Mass Bay Sailors 0 12-11-2006 06:15 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:35 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.