Interesting Sailboats - Page 599 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree1263Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #5981  
Old 02-03-2014
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,919
Thanks: 1
Thanked 87 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Looking at those photos I don't see the chines doing anything.
That last pic shows the boat dragging quite a bit of rudder angle.
Maybe he was falling off. Maybe the boat is not well balanced.
I see lots of wetted surface. I see boats dragging their sterns.
In that first pic there is not enough chine definition to do anything but satisfy the "fashion" guys.
Sapwraia likes this.
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #5982  
Old 02-03-2014
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,195
Thanks: 21
Thanked 102 Times in 85 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
There is no question among designers that chines help a lot when you have a light, high powered boat operating off the wind where surfing or some type of borderline planing is possible. If you are sailing a boat at twice displ hull speed you need dead flat butts and a wide stern, just like a powerboat! This we know.....
As we know also that the problem is combining that motor boat hull shape with a shape that allows the boat to sail fast upwind

We also know that in what regards upwind / downwind overall better performance for a same length of boat there is not a big difference between the possible beam options and we also now that today overall faster boats are generally more beamier than some decades ago.

I believe that is due not only to lighter boats but also regarding what was learned regarding planing hulls. If the boat is too narrow it will not be able to generate the power needed to plan downwind and it will lose so much downwind that on the overall performance would not be a match.

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #5983  
Old 02-03-2014
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,195
Thanks: 21
Thanked 102 Times in 85 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Looking at those photos I don't see the chines doing anything.
That last pic shows the boat dragging quite a bit of rudder angle.
Maybe he was falling off. Maybe the boat is not well balanced.
I see lots of wetted surface. I see boats dragging their sterns.
In that first pic there is not enough chine definition to do anything but satisfy the "fashion" guys.
It seems that we see different things. On the two pictures on the water both boats, the Sun Odyssey and the Oceanis are sailing on what their chines allow. The Sun Odyssey is making force over the chine, the Oceanis close to it. The photos are there to show to you that those two boats are designed to sail upwind in a very different way.

Regarding the chine on the first picture maybe it is from the angle. In fact the chine is as well defined as in some racing boats



You give the idea (or you seem to think) that the Sun Odyssey sails badly. I don't think so. Post the polar speed of your last 46ft, the nice one that you have already posted here, and I think I can show to you that the correspondent Sun Odyssey 463 is a boat with a better sailing performance.

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #5984  
Old 02-03-2014
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,919
Thanks: 1
Thanked 87 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo:
Yes. I agree that chine is well defined. But it is not working. It is 30 metric thingies above the DWL. It can't be working if it is not in the watewr. At that heel angle it only adds wetted surface.

I don't know what 46'er you are referring to. I'm not fashionable. I don't think I have anything that is applicable in this environment.

I rarely shower. I smell like my dogs, I wear woolen shirts. My hair looks funny. I own two pair of shoes. I'm not Euro.

(I do have an amazing, very expensive hi-fi system probably cost as much as your yacht)

But I sure do like exchanging ideas with you. You are an amazing reference for whatever is new in European boats.

But it is my nature to be the devil's advocate.
capt vimes likes this.
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #5985  
Old 02-04-2014
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Germany
Posts: 684
Thanks: 5
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Rep Power: 3
robelz is on a distinguished road
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:
Yes. I agree that chine is well defined. But it is not working. It is 30 metric thingies above the DWL. It can't be working if it is not in the watewr. At that heel angle it only adds wetted surface.
Sorry, I think you aren't right here: The chines - even if the don't touch the water - allow the flat section to be wider what makes the boat stiffer...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #5986  
Old 02-04-2014
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,919
Thanks: 1
Thanked 87 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Rob:
Imagine shaving off that chine with a big grinder. It wouldn't take much. I'm not sure you would feel the difference and I'm not sure the boat would not be faster.

For some contrast you might look at the boats in the TP 52 class and the new Ker 43. Maybe take a look at some of the newest Reichel-Pugh boats.
These boats don't use chines. In fact the current popular stern shape is pretty much the opposite to what you would get with chines. These are round the buoys racers and designed for all round boat speed. They are very different boats compared to your Mom and Pop Euro cruiser but if chines were fast for all round performance they would have them.

Please don't think I am anti chine. I have designed many chine boats. I have been trying to say all along that there is an application for chines and there are applications where chines don't help. I am not generalizing. The attitude here for some is that "Chines are better for everything". I do not agree with that.
Sapwraia likes this.
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by bobperry; 02-04-2014 at 06:42 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #5987  
Old 02-04-2014
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Posts: 168
Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 4
olianta is on a distinguished road
Re: Interesting Sailboats

After giving a second thought to what I posted previously and reading all your posts I think that hard chines do not contribute as prevention from heeling. For example would the hard chines on a narrow hull sailboat make it stiffer than the same hull and ballast boat without chines? I don't think so. If caught by a gust the boat will heel past the chines and the latter will create just more drag. I think we saw a similar thing on the Swedish video regarding the Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409, where at some point it heeled to starboard past the chine. And sailing in the groove on a hard chined boat will be more a matter of perfect sail trim, which is again more likely to be archieved by professional sailors than majority of cruisers.

Regards
Rumen
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #5988  
Old 02-04-2014
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,195
Thanks: 21
Thanked 102 Times in 85 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Chines

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
...
For some contrast you might look at the boats in the TP 52 class and the new Ker 43. Maybe take a look at some of the newest Reichel-Pugh boats.
These boats don't use chines. In fact the current popular stern shape is pretty much the opposite to what you would get with chines. These are round the buoys racers and designed for all round boat speed. ....
and that is why I say the chines are not there necessarily there to better sailing performance but to increase control. I don't believe a TP52 would be faster downwind with chines. If it was the case we would have seen some designers using them on those boats. Those boats are raced for a relatively short time with a big and expert crew and the increased control the chines would give at possibly the cost of a very small some loss of speed upwind doesn't pay off. They can control the boat even without the help of chines and the hull shape is what gives them the ability to go fast downwind on planing mode.

I agree that each case is a case and on different hulls chines are different and work at different heel angles. Regarding performance racers they are related with the best heel angle of the boat upwind, on cruisers they can be there for that, if they are performance cruisers or in the case of slower cruisers they can be there mostly to limit heel and to give a better boat control.

One of the reasons ker boats or TP 52 don't use chines is because they sail upwind with a lot of heel taking advantage of the power created by the big B/D ratio and big draft and for that they practically use all transom (that is designed for giving max hull form stability at that angle), I mean on the max heel position the transom is all sitting on the water so Chines make no sense and would only create drag.







Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:
Yes. I agree that chine is well defined. But it is not working.



It is 30 metric thingies above the DWL. It can't be working if it is not in the watewr. At that heel angle it only adds wetted surface.
On those beamy hulls with large transoms the waterline varies widely with heel on the transom. See, the chine is on the water and it is not needed much heel:





Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post

But I sure do like exchanging ideas with you. You are an amazing reference for whatever is new in European boats....I'm not Euro

Thanks. Regarding chines maybe you can give me some advise how these ones, on a very recent piece of American Yacht Naval architecture, work?






The Hunter 40 has much less beam and a much narrower transom than the Oceanis 41 and will sail upwind with more heel, as the photos and video can confirm but the chine is practically at waterline so any amount of heel would have it submersed. I don't get it

I saw the video and I still don't understand how it works, I mean positively in what regards performance or control. It seems to be adding drag only. I would really like you to give me a help on this, being that a non Euro boat, maybe I am missing something



Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 02-04-2014 at 09:08 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #5989  
Old 02-04-2014
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,919
Thanks: 1
Thanked 87 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo:
I'm not sure. I'll take a guess:

I think the chines on that Hunter are there to help give it speed under power. They certainly will contribute to stability but they are going to dig in at modest angles of heel and that means drag like any immersed transom.

Then there is the interior volume where it can be best used, i.e. right where the berth flat height is.

I kind of like that hull shape but it is a bit odd with those" super chines".

"American naval architecture is the same as European naval architecture. Same water. Same wind. Same laws of physics. Maybe less fashion.
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #5990  
Old 02-04-2014
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Posts: 168
Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 4
olianta is on a distinguished road
Red face Re: Chines

Thanks. Regarding chines maybe you can give me some advise how these ones, on a very recent piece of American Yacht Naval architecture, work?



Regards

Paulo[/QUOTE]

May be it works for less rolling when motoring in flat seas, sails dropped.

BTW, do you happen to know what are the cines of river/canal barges, do they look similar to the ones of this Hunter?

Regards
Rumen
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 9 (0 members and 9 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cruising sailboats for sale welch Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 10 04-25-2012 05:20 PM
THE Yacht Builder List T37Chef Boat Review and Purchase Forum 26 07-08-2011 05:51 AM
Noob wonderings and questions about sailing, life at sail and sailboats Vans General Discussion (sailing related) 49 06-20-2011 12:18 AM
A List of ALL sailboats made with layouts? Myblueheaven Boat Review and Purchase Forum 8 10-08-2010 11:32 AM
Failure to Navigate - interesting post on Panbo Blog & from the NewsReader Mass Bay Sailors 0 12-11-2006 06:15 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:22 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.