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  #591  
Old 01-24-2011
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It's sure that with that 7 feet draft the Elan have a lower center of gravity then most full keellers.
When I said that I wanted to have a boat that was made to take the sea, I didn't said that the modern sailboat aren't made to take the sea. Most of them are, but I think a few characteristic makes them more vulnerable then older design.
First the keel is not as secure, if you hit something at hight speed, you could loose your keel, I read a lot of books on ocean racing and it happens, but that was mostly on open 40,50 and 60... I don't know about the other boats like the beneteaus, jeanneaus and all that. And second, the twin rudders are not protected by the keel and they are more prone to damage.

It's really a personnal choice.

Feel free to correct me, you seem way more knowledgeable then me
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  #592  
Old 01-24-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterSailer View Post
It's sure that with that 7 feet draft the Elan have a lower center of gravity then most full keellers.
When I said that I wanted to have a boat that was made to take the sea, I didn't said that the modern sailboat aren't made to take the sea. Most of them are, but I think a few characteristic makes them more vulnerable then older design.
First the keel is not as secure, if you hit something at hight speed, you could loose your keel, I read a lot of books on ocean racing and it happens, but that was mostly on open 40,50 and 60... I don't know about the other boats like the beneteaus, jeanneaus and all that. And second, the twin rudders are not protected by the keel and they are more prone to damage.

It's really a personnal choice.

Feel free to correct me, you seem way more knowledgeable then me
You are a nice guy

Yes you are right a full keeler has a much better protection on the rudder and the keel will resist better to a shock.

But regarding losing the keel it would be a very improbable event. The biggest problem with Open 60's and their keels is related with the kind of speeds they sail. Most of the problems had been with whales. You hit one over 20k and it is like hitting a wall. The Elan 350, while a fast boat is far from that kind of performances.

Regarding the rudders, yes they are more exposed but a lot less than on a typical monohull (they are less deep and somewhat covered by the deep keel) and you have two rudders, even if you lose one you can sail slowly with one.

But you are right, if you wanna trade that very improbable causality for the speed and sailing fun, its up to you.

However you will have different kinds of boats with stronger fin keels and protected rudders that will offer you about the same protection to collision with a much better sailing performance. I am thinking, for example, at Malo, Halberg-Rassy or Najad.

Regards

Paulo
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  #593  
Old 01-24-2011
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Elan 350 boat of the year - movies

Quote:
Originally Posted by slap View Post
Here is a link to the European yacht of the year article on Yachting World, with comments from the judges.

Elan 350 - Performance Cruiser

Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409 - Family Cruiser

XC38 - Luxury Cruiser

Saffier 23 - Special Yacht

European Yachts of the Year 2010/11 | Yacht News | Yachting World
Thanks Slap. I had already posted that winning list on a dedicated thread, but that comments are very interesting . I will not resist to post them here.

ELAN 350


GBR - Yachting World - British Jury:

Light, direct and responsive on the helm, the 350 is an absolute pleasure to push hard. Like many modern cars, she is capable of plenty more than most people will have the nerve to try. And that bodes well when it comes to more everyday performance where she is nimble, light to handle and easy to sail at a brisk pace.
....
this boat is a perfect match for those who are looking for a boat that strikes a balance between good performance and practical requirements of family sailing. There are plenty of boats that have claimed this territory, but few that really deliver.

Below decks, despite her modest yet modern looks, she's attracted praise and criticism is equal measures. For me she's spot on, a mixture of sparking performance and a simple practical layout below.




GER - YACHT - Germany Jury:

Happy marriage between a fully fitted-out cruiser and a fast beast when ist blowing.

She needs wind and sail area to fly, but when she does she makes you want to go forever.

Great steering despite the twin rudders and twin wheels. Good cockpit layout. Super bow sprit solution. well built.

Downsides? Only one biggy: The base price is a bit misleading, fully spec'ed she will easily cost 150k or more. But of all contemporary performance cruisers her size that is still a fair deal.




ITA - Fare Vela, Italian Jury:

Maybe one of the best and more complete example of new age fast cruisers, she proved good speed and fun under sail with lots of very well thought solutions, either on deck or inside. And all this in a good looking and refined design, specially considering the hull shape.

Easy to sail fast with a lot of fun, good space inside, a perfect fast cruiser for young and sportive families.




NED - Waterkampioen, Dutch Jury:

a fantastic performance cruiser from Elan: the 350. It combines perfectly the luxury you need for (family)cruising with great sailing abilities.

Easily planing downwind, fantastic upwind. A boat that I - almost - would like to own myself.





FRA - Voile, French Jury:

A wide transom, with two rudders and a chine : it looks promising and it is !

Rob humphreys did for sure a superb job for the boat is very well balanced and the stern is always very smooth. It is not so frequent when having a double rudder.

The boat goes fast and with ease, even in the lights winds. A very good cruiser racer from whatever point of vue.




AUT - YachtRevue, Austrian Jury:

Exciting Design, exciting performance: We like the smooth movement in the waves, the way the boat accelerates going downwind and the layout of the fittings in the Clubracing-Version.

Under deck: There is more space as expected and some really nice details.




SWE - BatNytt, Swedish Jury:

Elan 350 Head-on-design with comfort:

With Elan 350 regatta sailors, solo racers and families alike get seldom seen performance.

Chines, twin rudders, extreme beam aft, give unrivalled control when cruising and inspire adventurers to test limits.

When testing the boat in 25 knots wind, we noted 14 knots on the speedo and no wipeouts. Expect even higher numbers when surfconditions are up. ...

Among the innovations we like the carbonsprit smartly hidden in the foredeck, well constructed and lowfriction steering system with GRP wheels resulting in the lightest grip experienced on any twin rudder boat so far.

Inside styling might divide fans, but light woodwork, dark floorboards and angular corners, create a without doubt a very modern atmosphere on board. ...




NOR - Seilas, Norway Jury:

Wide hull with a lot of stability is the new trend. A few yard have been pushing the ideas from the Open-classes to the mass marked, but non have made this in such a clever style as Elan.

Elan 350 looks good, works well, and will sett the benchmark for performance yachts for this class.

It's fun to sail with double digits on the log, not only at the face of a wave, but for hours.




SUI - Marina.ch, Swiss Jury:

...She combines classy sailing-performance with the comfort-needs of a non-professional crew.

A plus is the feeling at the helm - a weak point on many yachts with double-rudder configuration.





DEN - BŚdNyt, Danish Jury:

Modern looks, lots of comfort both in terms of sailing abilities an down below.

The wide transom and the twin rudder setup is the signature of the boats of the coming decade.

It reaches planing speed with ease and stays there for long.

The two wheels are both nice to look at and nice to control the boat with. It is a clear winner destined for succes.





Howww!!! I have been inside the boat, saw the very well designed good quality interior with lots of cruising potential, read a lot of tests, have talked with guys that had sailed the boat and all said wonders about it, but this unanimous praise of the boat is really fantastic.

I want to try it

Look at this movie. I have already posted it but not on HD. It takes a while to load, but it's a great quality movie


Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 11:30 AM.
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  #594  
Old 01-24-2011
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PeterSailor....if you old fashioned you could always have a look at Vancouver.

Vancouver

Northshore also make Fishers, though they are hardly low freeboard.

Fisher

I must say that one thing I do agree with you about is draft. 2 metre plus draft is too deep for my needs. Our current boat is 1.8 but in truth is closer to 2.0. Thats as deep as I want to go and yes I'll sacrifice performance if necessary.

Now me, I love that Elan350 but its not the boat for me. I cannot see the torpedo bulb keel being good for anything other than performance.

OTOH....I would drive away in a Sun Odyssey 409, that is very close to ideal for me even though its not a deck saloon. Lovely looking boat.

One of the things we all need to keep in mind is the use we will put the boat to. Ultimately I am likely to be rock hopping my way around Australia. I'm not likely to spend more than the odd day or so at sea, mainly day passages except when I need to cover some distance. Bass Strait for one , maybe offshore to Lord Howe, even some parts of the NSW coast are at least an overnight between ports....unless of course you are Wild Oats X1....

I'm also not someone who goes out for a few hours sailing all that often...or not as often as some. Even if only for a weekend I head out to a favourite anchorage, drop anchor and sit tight till I have to go home Sunday evenong or Monday morning. Ergo, I need more of a comfortable home than a sports car.

Paulo and I have had this discussion before.

But....reality is that even Vancouver make a great fuss about cut away forefoot to increase performance. I see it as simply progress. Sometimes design inovation takes a backward step but its mostly forward.
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  #595  
Old 01-25-2011
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...or good new boats...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterSailer View Post
I guess that i'm gonna have to stick with good old boats...

Ö yes, PeterSailor, I know you wanted small full keelers; I just could not bring myself to show a photo of the smallest Nauticat 331, it is such an ugly box :-) So, here goes (my next post is more to the point):

Here is one long keeler that is still produced in series and in quite some numbers by the Finnish builder. Nauticat 441 was last renewed in 2009, and they keep going with the smaller models 38 and 331, old designs originating in the 1960s; 1966 for the very first and smallest. It says something about the concept that it is one of the few cruising style 44 footers today made to Category B, i.e. not A for ocean sailing. Almost ironic, when one of the reasons some poeple seek long keelers is their reputed good behaviour on the ocean. This family has never been famous for outstanding sail performance, but do well as floating holiday homes. Their interiors are sumptuous and sure to impress a reluctant spouse.

Nauticat has had to live with the swing away from such shapes, and the models above cannot be said to be their mainstay today. Instead, newer lines with better performance, fin keels (and a much nicer design in my view) are the 321 through 6 models up to the large 515. To make the distinction and sound a bit more "modern", Nauticat now calls these "pilothouse yachts" and the others "motorsailors."

You can knock Nauticat all you wish, but it has a loyal following - some folk began with a 33 and are now on their 3rd or 4th Nauticat. It also holds ridiculously high second-hand values. It doesn't seem to go away - though one doesn't know how long their long keel line will last.

If you had to sum it up in a sentence, it would be "outstanding workmanship and finish", and "a pretty stiff price."

LOA: 14,79 m
LWL: 11,8 m
Beam: 3,75 m
Draft: 1,9 m
Displacement: 16.50 ton
Sails: 115 m_
Height above waterline: 17,5 m
Fresh water capacity: 620 l
Engine: 160 hp
Fuel capacity: 840 l
Boat design category: B
Attached Thumbnails
Interesting Sailboats-nauisail.jpg   Interesting Sailboats-nautisalo.jpg   Interesting Sailboats-nautirearcab.jpg   Interesting Sailboats-nautint441.jpg  
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  #596  
Old 01-25-2011
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Not so costly

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterSailer View Post
I all ready have that list on my desk top
I'm never gonna buy a cape george cutter, their simply too costy...It would be the same thing to have a Vancouver build, just too costy for me.
If you want a "real" and small sailboat (25ft), there is always the Nordic Folkboat, some 4000 produced so far and still in manufacture. The design originated in 1939, in wood :-)

It has its own class and is frequently used for touring also - it is competent at sea. Perhaps "camping" describes it better than "cruising"? The good part? Price begins at $60,000. A 2007 model i currently for sale in UK for $US54,000. For the older ones you may pay more! I see a mahogany specimen from 1997 selling for $74,000.

A few copycats of the Folkboat also have long keels: the Marieholm, IF boats etc., but they are no longer made as far as I know. Excellent examples are found second-hand at low prices.

Remarkably many people love the Folkboat; they speak of it with love.

LOA 7,64 m
LWL 6,00 m
Bredde 2,20 m
Draft: 1,20 m
Displacement 1930 kg
Seilareal 24 m2
Main 17 m2
Jib 7 m2
Attached Thumbnails
Interesting Sailboats-folkboat-sailing.jpg   Interesting Sailboats-folkboat-expo.jpg   Interesting Sailboats-folkboat1.jpg   Interesting Sailboats-folkboat-camping.jpg   Interesting Sailboats-folkboatcockpit.jpg  

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  #597  
Old 01-25-2011
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Any smaller?

Could they come smaller?
A "Mini-Folkboat" named MF-Boat was launched only last year, by the son of the original Folkboat designer. Definitely a day sailor/fun boat, it is certainly true to tradition, in modern materials.

Seglamf

MF Båten

MF Matchrace 2010
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  #598  
Old 01-25-2011
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A problem I see with a lot of the new designs is a certain emphasis on open interior layouts, which are great for socializing at the dock, but really lousy on passage in heavy weather...



Do you see any real handholds besides the ones at each end of the settee. If that's a full berth length, that's over six feet without handholds...not good.
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  #599  
Old 01-25-2011
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I would buy a contessa26 before a Folkboat, they're basically have the same lines but the contessa is a bit bigger. I have too agree with you that they are some very nice looking boats and they are good sea boats.I'm not sure but I think some folkboat have circumnavigated.The only draw back is the lack of self bailing cockpit... I'm looking for small boats but 25 is too small. My minimum lenth would be 26 ft and my maximum would be 35. I know thats pretty small for some of our members here on sailnet but thats the smallest size that I could get away with. And I think thats how evry body should choose their boat. Why would I buy a 45 footer if I can have a fully equip 32 ft sailboat for half the price of the 45ft?

I hope that those big windows on that Nauticat 441 are strong


By the way, if any of you are interested in the folkboat, here is a good book that tells evrything about it. Folkboat Story: From Cult to Classic-The Renaissance of a Legend
I read it my self and it's pretty good .
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  #600  
Old 01-25-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterSailer View Post
I would buy a contessa26 before a Folkboat....
...
I hope that those big windows on that Nauticat 441 are strong
Yes, I was only responding to the theme of "do they make them any longer." As far as I know the Contessa ceased production in 1976-78 in Europe and 1990 in Canada. The Folkboat can still be bought new.

Oh yeah, those Nauti windows are strong - the whole boat is. That could be part if its problem - heavy and cumbersome in sea. Their line of pilothouse yachts is very nice, however - just too damned expensive.

To Sailingdog: My thinking exactly - I have discarded many yacht pretenders because of those stupid open saloons without handhelds. I think, however, the Nauticat photo is partly the deception of wide angle lenses. They feel quite closed-in when aboard.

And of course, as PeterSailer says, Folkboats have circumnavigated, so have Marieholm, and so have Nauticats, though I'm sure none of them were ever "A" rated. Whether you want to? A different question.
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