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  #5991  
Old 02-03-2014
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Re: Chines

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
yes it is...


i think that the designers try hard to make the boats fast on every point of sail.. but all of this development derived from round the world racing boats always going with prevailing wind and currents...
and not only since the round-the-bouy-races have been introduced to the VOR designers seek a way to make those boats fast to windward without loosing their ability downwinds... hence the massive water ballast...
for sure those boats need to be easy on the helm for really fast downwind, because that is their main purpose - surfing the waves with 30+ knots...

what i tried to point out in my former post was essentially something else...
try to push a good downwind runner into a box which limits beam... you will get vertical sides and chines...
and now think outside that box and then factor in fashion and "proved" design...
if i would go hard chines, i would ask myself, why are motorboat hulls so much different from sailboat hulls even if they go at the same speed (20-30 knots)?
i would take a completely different approach - like this (lifting strakes from the bow to the transom - i like the rig as well... ):
http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/P...on%20SNAME.pdf
or probably this - really pronounced lifting strakes:
The Universal Hull by Warwick Collins | My Wooden Boat of the Week
and both of them do have some resemblance - the V-bottom, no or very minor rocker with those strakes to the sides... and both hulls work(ed)...
I do not understand very well your post. The fact that chines have been developed in solo racers as nothing with the fact of being used also on IRC racers. In fact the hull design is very different from the one of an Open boats and the chines too. The IRC racers are designed to sail with a lot more heel upwind and that makes the hull different as well as the chines (when they have chines).

Regarding Sponberg Open 60,

http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/P...on%20SNAME.pdf

a much more narrower boat than the ones that were designed by the French Na, I remember well the story and his claims that the boat would be faster than any other. The boat did not work as previewed, never had been competitive, it was very dificult to sail solo and disappeared rapidly from the racing solo scene.

You have the idea that the Open 60's sail badly upwind. In fact without being a boat optimized for upwind sailing their velocity made good is pretty impressive for a boat maximized for downwind sailing. The angle to the wind is bigger than the one of a narrow boat but they compensate with a bigger power and speed some degrees off. Maybe you don't know that for many years the world sailing circumnavigation record against the prevailing wind belonged to an Open 60. Of course a VOR 70 is even better upwind than an Open 60 but not as good as a narrower boat optimized for upwind performance.

It is all a question of balance but IRC boats have to have a pretty good balance between upwind and downwind sailing otherwise they will not win races.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-03-2014 at 06:55 PM.
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  #5992  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo:
I agree with you. Beam per se is not fast.

Look at any rating rule. Beam is always on the slow side of the equasion.
But sometimes beam means power, stability, sail carrying power. So in some cases more beam pays off with more boat speed.

Forget that hull beam can equal power. What if you could get power without increasing the beam of the hull? Look at the AC cats. They have beam but the get it by talking two extremely narrow hulls and spreading them apart. You don't see AC cats with beamy hulls.
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  #5993  
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Re: Chines

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiasDePlaya View Post
This is true. The fastest boats in a upwind-downwind course was the last America's Cup monohulls, and those boats are very narrow. Some are still sailing.
I don't think that is true, except under some conditions like for instance light winds. At the time they were very unsatisfied with the boats that were heavy and could not plan downwind. Certainly very fast upwind but not the best balance upwind/downwind.

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Last edited by PCP; 02-04-2014 at 08:18 AM.
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  #5994  
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Oceanis 41 - Sun Odyssey 409, two different concepts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
You could be right Paulo. I really know little about Bavaria's market target.

I think you make a very good point in differentiating chines for control and chines for boat speed. I remain a bit skeptical about the ability to push a chined cruiser hard uipwind. But perhaps you are not supposed to push one of these boat hard upwind. I would have to sail one myself to see what happens after that chine is immersed. While that distinct "shoulder" in the stability curve has its benefits I think there is also a down side to it when the boat is pushed beyond the shoulder.

Even on a high powered boat chines can help control. I raced a Tasar dinghy for a few years and it had chines. Off the wind the Tasar would plane quickly and effortlessly. One on a plane the Tasar became very stable and was very easy to drive. The round bilge Laser is not very stable on a plane.
I know that on a high powered boats chines can help control. I am not sure if they can improve speed out of the one a better control of the boat would provide.

Regarding cruising boats and chines you cannot put all on the same bag. Even in what regards main mass market cruisers some of them (with chines) have very different hulls and sail characteristics.

From the Sense and Oceanis Beneteau line probably, taking away the new 38, the 41 is the more "sportive" and even so it is not a boat to be "pushed" upwind. You would not gain nothing except increasing drag and loss of speed putting its chine immersed.

Even on very fast performance boats like the Pogo 12.50 you don't push the boat upwind like a narrow boat. You would gain nothing in going as much as the boat can go upwind with a lot of heel. On boats like that you go a bit more out of the wind at a superior speed and in the end the VMG is about the same as a more traditional performance cruiser like the First 40 for example. Downwind and on a beam reach the Pogo will be faster.

Back to main market cruisers, if you compare the Jeanneau 409 with the Oceanis 41 you will find out that they have both chines but very different hulls and that the Jeanneau can take much more heel upwind and point a bit better. On the Benetau line if you want a better performance boat and one that points better you have the First line. On the Dufour the same, you have the performance line. The Jeanneau has only a line and perhaps is why the boat is an overall more balanced sailing boat.

Not saying that the Jeanneau is a better cruising boat than the Oceanis: Sailing decently, including upwind with little heel and a maximum of interior and cockpit space can be and certainly is what many sailors would prefer even if I would prefer the better sailing performance of the Jeanneau 409...but then I would prefer a Beneteau First to a Jeanneau. Different courses for different horses

Some pictures and movies that will help to understand what I am talking about and the differences between these two different mass production cruisers with chines.















Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-03-2014 at 07:44 PM.
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  #5995  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Looking at those photos I don't see the chines doing anything.
That last pic shows the boat dragging quite a bit of rudder angle.
Maybe he was falling off. Maybe the boat is not well balanced.
I see lots of wetted surface. I see boats dragging their sterns.
In that first pic there is not enough chine definition to do anything but satisfy the "fashion" guys.
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  #5996  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
There is no question among designers that chines help a lot when you have a light, high powered boat operating off the wind where surfing or some type of borderline planing is possible. If you are sailing a boat at twice displ hull speed you need dead flat butts and a wide stern, just like a powerboat! This we know.....
As we know also that the problem is combining that motor boat hull shape with a shape that allows the boat to sail fast upwind

We also know that in what regards upwind / downwind overall better performance for a same length of boat there is not a big difference between the possible beam options and we also now that today overall faster boats are generally more beamier than some decades ago.

I believe that is due not only to lighter boats but also regarding what was learned regarding planing hulls. If the boat is too narrow it will not be able to generate the power needed to plan downwind and it will lose so much downwind that on the overall performance would not be a match.

Regards

Paulo
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  #5997  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Looking at those photos I don't see the chines doing anything.
That last pic shows the boat dragging quite a bit of rudder angle.
Maybe he was falling off. Maybe the boat is not well balanced.
I see lots of wetted surface. I see boats dragging their sterns.
In that first pic there is not enough chine definition to do anything but satisfy the "fashion" guys.
It seems that we see different things. On the two pictures on the water both boats, the Sun Odyssey and the Oceanis are sailing on what their chines allow. The Sun Odyssey is making force over the chine, the Oceanis close to it. The photos are there to show to you that those two boats are designed to sail upwind in a very different way.

Regarding the chine on the first picture maybe it is from the angle. In fact the chine is as well defined as in some racing boats



You give the idea (or you seem to think) that the Sun Odyssey sails badly. I don't think so. Post the polar speed of your last 46ft, the nice one that you have already posted here, and I think I can show to you that the correspondent Sun Odyssey 463 is a boat with a better sailing performance.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo:
Yes. I agree that chine is well defined. But it is not working. It is 30 metric thingies above the DWL. It can't be working if it is not in the watewr. At that heel angle it only adds wetted surface.

I don't know what 46'er you are referring to. I'm not fashionable. I don't think I have anything that is applicable in this environment.

I rarely shower. I smell like my dogs, I wear woolen shirts. My hair looks funny. I own two pair of shoes. I'm not Euro.

(I do have an amazing, very expensive hi-fi system probably cost as much as your yacht)

But I sure do like exchanging ideas with you. You are an amazing reference for whatever is new in European boats.

But it is my nature to be the devil's advocate.
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  #5999  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:
Yes. I agree that chine is well defined. But it is not working. It is 30 metric thingies above the DWL. It can't be working if it is not in the watewr. At that heel angle it only adds wetted surface.
Sorry, I think you aren't right here: The chines - even if the don't touch the water - allow the flat section to be wider what makes the boat stiffer...
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Rob:
Imagine shaving off that chine with a big grinder. It wouldn't take much. I'm not sure you would feel the difference and I'm not sure the boat would not be faster.

For some contrast you might look at the boats in the TP 52 class and the new Ker 43. Maybe take a look at some of the newest Reichel-Pugh boats.
These boats don't use chines. In fact the current popular stern shape is pretty much the opposite to what you would get with chines. These are round the buoys racers and designed for all round boat speed. They are very different boats compared to your Mom and Pop Euro cruiser but if chines were fast for all round performance they would have them.

Please don't think I am anti chine. I have designed many chine boats. I have been trying to say all along that there is an application for chines and there are applications where chines don't help. I am not generalizing. The attitude here for some is that "Chines are better for everything". I do not agree with that.
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Last edited by bobperry; 02-04-2014 at 06:42 AM.
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