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  #6001  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

After giving a second thought to what I posted previously and reading all your posts I think that hard chines do not contribute as prevention from heeling. For example would the hard chines on a narrow hull sailboat make it stiffer than the same hull and ballast boat without chines? I don't think so. If caught by a gust the boat will heel past the chines and the latter will create just more drag. I think we saw a similar thing on the Swedish video regarding the Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409, where at some point it heeled to starboard past the chine. And sailing in the groove on a hard chined boat will be more a matter of perfect sail trim, which is again more likely to be archieved by professional sailors than majority of cruisers.

Regards
Rumen
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  #6002  
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Chines

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
...
For some contrast you might look at the boats in the TP 52 class and the new Ker 43. Maybe take a look at some of the newest Reichel-Pugh boats.
These boats don't use chines. In fact the current popular stern shape is pretty much the opposite to what you would get with chines. These are round the buoys racers and designed for all round boat speed. ....
and that is why I say the chines are not there necessarily there to better sailing performance but to increase control. I don't believe a TP52 would be faster downwind with chines. If it was the case we would have seen some designers using them on those boats. Those boats are raced for a relatively short time with a big and expert crew and the increased control the chines would give at possibly the cost of a very small some loss of speed upwind doesn't pay off. They can control the boat even without the help of chines and the hull shape is what gives them the ability to go fast downwind on planing mode.

I agree that each case is a case and on different hulls chines are different and work at different heel angles. Regarding performance racers they are related with the best heel angle of the boat upwind, on cruisers they can be there for that, if they are performance cruisers or in the case of slower cruisers they can be there mostly to limit heel and to give a better boat control.

One of the reasons ker boats or TP 52 don't use chines is because they sail upwind with a lot of heel taking advantage of the power created by the big B/D ratio and big draft and for that they practically use all transom (that is designed for giving max hull form stability at that angle), I mean on the max heel position the transom is all sitting on the water so Chines make no sense and would only create drag.







Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:
Yes. I agree that chine is well defined. But it is not working.



It is 30 metric thingies above the DWL. It can't be working if it is not in the watewr. At that heel angle it only adds wetted surface.
On those beamy hulls with large transoms the waterline varies widely with heel on the transom. See, the chine is on the water and it is not needed much heel:





Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post

But I sure do like exchanging ideas with you. You are an amazing reference for whatever is new in European boats....I'm not Euro

Thanks. Regarding chines maybe you can give me some advise how these ones, on a very recent piece of American Yacht Naval architecture, work?






The Hunter 40 has much less beam and a much narrower transom than the Oceanis 41 and will sail upwind with more heel, as the photos and video can confirm but the chine is practically at waterline so any amount of heel would have it submersed. I don't get it

I saw the video and I still don't understand how it works, I mean positively in what regards performance or control. It seems to be adding drag only. I would really like you to give me a help on this, being that a non Euro boat, maybe I am missing something



Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-04-2014 at 10:08 AM.
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  #6003  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo:
I'm not sure. I'll take a guess:

I think the chines on that Hunter are there to help give it speed under power. They certainly will contribute to stability but they are going to dig in at modest angles of heel and that means drag like any immersed transom.

Then there is the interior volume where it can be best used, i.e. right where the berth flat height is.

I kind of like that hull shape but it is a bit odd with those" super chines".

"American naval architecture is the same as European naval architecture. Same water. Same wind. Same laws of physics. Maybe less fashion.
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  #6004  
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Red face Re: Chines

Thanks. Regarding chines maybe you can give me some advise how these ones, on a very recent piece of American Yacht Naval architecture, work?



Regards

Paulo[/QUOTE]

May be it works for less rolling when motoring in flat seas, sails dropped.

BTW, do you happen to know what are the cines of river/canal barges, do they look similar to the ones of this Hunter?

Regards
Rumen
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  #6005  
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Re: Chines

Quote:
Originally Posted by olianta View Post
...
May be it works for less rolling when motoring in flat seas, sails dropped.

BTW, do you happen to know what are the cines of river/canal barges, do they look similar to the ones of this Hunter?

Regards
Rumen
No doubt they will work for that, also at anchor. In fact that looks like a motorboat displacement hull and that's why canal barges look like that. But it will add drag while sailing upwind and on this one you are right, that immersed chine will do nothing good to make sailing easier since it will be dificult to put the boat on a groove when you are sailing on top of the angle of the chine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by olianta View Post
After giving a second thought to what I posted previously and reading all your posts I think that hard chines do not contribute as prevention from heeling. For example would the hard chines on a narrow hull sailboat make it stiffer than the same hull and ballast boat without chines? I don't think so. If caught by a gust the boat will heel past the chines and the latter will create just more drag. I think we saw a similar thing on the Swedish video regarding the Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409, where at some point it heeled to starboard past the chine. And sailing in the groove on a hard chined boat will be more a matter of perfect sail trim, which is again more likely to be archieved by professional sailors than majority of cruisers.

Rumen
There is little point in used chines on a narrow boat because the boat will sail at the most effective upwind heel point with a lot of heel and with almost if not all freeboard on the water and in that case the chine would be submersed. A little gain would be won regarding stiffness but it would not compensate drag. Only on the transom or very near chines would be of any use on a narrow boat.

Regarding the Sun Odyssey 409 it can effectively sail with a lot of heel before that chine hits the water and be effective. The hull is very different from the one on the Oceanis (or the Hunter) where the chine starts near the bow and goes around all hull. On the 409 it is only on the back of the boat:





Hard chines increase stiffness and if well done it will increase it where it is more useful, at the best upwind sailing heel angle. It helps also in what regards to put the boat in a groove there since it will offer resistance to pass over it. Boats sailed past its optimum heel angle will lose performance.

Regards

Paulo
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  #6006  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

If you want to see a very successful narow boat with chines you should check out RAGTIME, a Spencer design. This boat is a downwind rocket and has been winning for about 35 years.

I'll leave it to Paulo to dig up some pics of it.
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  #6007  
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Re: Chines

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
No doubt they will work for that, also at anchor. In fact that looks like a motorboat displacement hull and that's why canal barges look like that. But it will add drag while sailing upwind and on this one you are right, that immersed chine will do nothing good to make sailing easier since it will be dificult to put the boat on a groove when you are sailing on top of the angle of the chine.
Regards

Paulo
Then I guess that the chines' effectiveness (without being punished by increased drag) depends on their location, extent of pronouncement and most of all by the angle of heel, the latter being dependant by many other factors. That's why I think that the no chines hulls are more versatile. And versatility is the most practical goal for a cruiser sailboat.

Regards
Rumen
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  #6008  
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Re: Chines

Quote:
Originally Posted by olianta View Post
Then I guess that the chines' effectiveness (without being punished by increased drag) depends on their location, extent of pronouncement and most of all by the angle of heel, the latter being dependant by many other factors. That's why I think that the no chines hulls are more versatile. And versatility is the most practical goal for a cruiser sailboat.

Regards
Rumen
On the first part you are going very well...then you messed up

Yes it is easier to design a hull without chines than with chines, I mean a good one with effective chines and it is also true that different hulls will have optimum chimes in different locations but sailing versatility has nothing to do with it.

Both on the Oceanis and on the sun Odyssey the chines will not interfere with the sailing ability till the optimum heel angle upwind is reached. The boat will be less effective past that angle and the chines are not to be passed but reaching that point of optimum heeling those chines will increase the stiffness of the boat and will help to prevent passing it, maintaining the boat on an optimum groove making sailing easier for a beginner or a cruiser on autopilot.

The boat will tell you very effectively when the optimum heeling angle is reached. You really have to try hard to pass over the chine...and you can almost hear the boat insulting your sailing abilities for trying it

That is not the case of the Hunter 40 that has very good chines to improve the boat stability while motoring or just downwind but that will create drag and hull instability at any significant amount of heel.

Regards

Paulo
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  #6009  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
If you want to see a very successful narow boat with chines you should check out RAGTIME, a Spencer design. This boat is a downwind rocket and has been winning for about 35 years.

I'll leave it to Paulo to dig up some pics of it.
I can remember ragtime, but never cared about her hull at that time...
Nevertheless if i look at her hull now, it reminds me strongly on the boats i posted previously - v shaped hull with the chines more or less used as lifting strakes...

Last edited by capt vimes; 02-04-2014 at 03:56 PM.
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
I can remember ragtime, but never cared about her hull at that time...
Nevertheless if i look at her hull now, it reminds me strongly on the boats i posted previously - v shaped hull with the chines more or less used as lifting strakes...
Please Vimes, put that picture smaller. It is taken the thread out of configuration.

That hull seems pretty dated to me. If the boat still wins it is because it has not much of a competition. Some fast hulls (for the time) had those chines. Vand de Stadt use them on Black Soo in 1957. I don't think that for many years now nobody relevant is designing a hull with that kind of chines, for performance or for cruising and for a good reason.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-04-2014 at 03:12 PM.
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