Interesting Sailboats - Page 601 - SailNet Community
 1269Likes
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #6001 of 6763 Old 02-04-2014
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Posts: 168
Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 4
 
Re: Chines

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
It seems you really have some difficulty on this. Yes your way of sailing should be adapted to each boat characteristics and not otherwise.

Each boat has an optimum way regarding being sailed effectively. Not all are the same. Some are more effective upwind with more heel, other with less.

If a boat does not only reminds the sailor about the better and more efficient heeling angle but also makes easier to find it and makes difficult bad and less efficient sailing, preventing him to pass that angle it is worse or less flexible than a boat that does not pass any information to the sailor?

Let me remind you that on top of all this that chine increases stiffness at the more efficient angle of heel, making the boat go slightly faster.

It beats me how you can see any of this as negative but I will insist no more, have it your own way

Regards

Paulo
Ok Paulo. We disagree. But this is a more philosophical disagreement. And I think also that no chines hull will deliver better information to the sailor who sails his boat badly.

But I am grateful to all valuable information and points you made about the chines and that you raised the polemics on chines on this thread that I follow much more than any other threads. Such topics are very enlightening and make one think and express opinions even when one may be wrong (talking about me). Otherwise if you are not qualified or enlightened you may just stare at the chines and think that they look cool. and that would be all.

Regards
Rumen
PCP likes this.
olianta is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #6002 of 6763 Old 02-04-2014 Thread Starter
PCP
Senior Member
 
PCP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,201
Thanks: 21
Thanked 103 Times in 86 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Chines

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
and i forgot to mention that we talk here about planing hulls - and NOT hulls which only operate in displacement mode...
and now show me any of these mass-production cruisers with their hard chines aft ever reaching planing speeds...
the racing derivates like all the pogos leave aside please... benetaus, jeanneus, bavaris, hanses and that kind of breed is what i am talking about...
Sorry, I did not saw this post and that's why I did not understood well the next one

Yes, the cruisers that are designed to reach planing speed are not many but several performance cruisers are: All the JPK, Archambault, all the Pogo cruisers, Cigale and many more but you are right pointing out that is not the case with Beneteaus or the typical mass production cruiser or even the typical mass production performance cruiser.

But I guess that by now You have already understood what I am trying to say: The chines on Benetau also serve to increase boat stiffness at the best upwind angle and make sailing easier but they are not there to facilitate planing and are not designed the same way the ones used on a planing boat are.

Chines, If well designed, on a cruising boat or in a racing boat can increase stiffness and make sailing easier but the similitude stops there. The way a hull is designed and the way chines are used is not the same on a boat designed to plan and on a cruising boat that sails in displacement mode.

Regards

Paulo


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PCP is offline  
post #6003 of 6763 Old 02-04-2014 Thread Starter
PCP
Senior Member
 
PCP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,201
Thanks: 21
Thanked 103 Times in 86 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Chines

Quote:
Originally Posted by olianta View Post
Downwind about the lift I agree 100%. Upwind, when heeled, the leeward chine will be underwater most of the time, so it will not work, but I guess this will not be detrimental to the performance on such a narrow hull.

Regards
Rumen
It will be less detrimental on a narrow boat.

The best example you can find of those type hulls are on the last America's cup mono-hull where on the last boats the hull has become more box like but where a hard chine was avoided. That was a desperate attempt to gain hull form stiffness on such a narrow boat (and it worked) but if they would not have been limited by max beam they would have just made a beamier boat.



Regards

Paulo


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 02-04-2014 at 04:01 PM.
PCP is offline  
post #6004 of 6763 Old 02-04-2014
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,128
Thanks: 1
Thanked 96 Times in 92 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Rumen:
That's what I was thinking.
Kind of like the little wheels you add to a kids first bike until he learns to balance the bike. We call them "training wheels".

Paulo:
RAGTIME has been upgraded and turbo'd and remains cometitive in downhill races. I think you should do some research into West Coast racing in the US before you comment on the qualioty of competition Rags has faced.

I had a long conversation with Mark Mills today. Mark did his internship in my office a few years back ( seems like a few). We remian good friends. We had a good talk about chines. Like me he feels they are far moere about fashion than they are about substance on the current group of Mom and Pop boats. He did put chines on his new 30' sportboat. We discussed chine geometries. Mark uses Computational Fluid Dynamic to help analyze his hulls but he said the CFD is of no use in evaluating the chines.
olianta likes this.

Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bobperry is offline  
post #6005 of 6763 Old 02-04-2014
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Posts: 168
Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 4
 
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Rumen:
That's what I was thinking.
Kind of like the little wheels you add to a kids first bike until he learns to balance the bike. We call them "training wheels".
And once you learn to balance you take them off (with the rough grinder) because they hinder your counter steering.

Rumen

Last edited by Faster; 02-07-2014 at 12:43 PM. Reason: fixed quote
olianta is offline  
post #6006 of 6763 Old 02-04-2014
Senior Member
 
capt vimes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 626
Thanks: 8
Thanked 17 Times in 17 Posts
Rep Power: 2
 
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Yeah - ragtime won her division in the 2009 sydney hobart...
Not to bad for a 65 ft and 45 year old wooden boat, don't you think?
capt vimes is offline  
post #6007 of 6763 Old 02-04-2014 Thread Starter
PCP
Senior Member
 
PCP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,201
Thanks: 21
Thanked 103 Times in 86 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry;1379249....

I had a long conversation with Mark Mills today. Mark did his internship in my office a few years back ( seems like a few). We remian good friends. We had a good talk about chines. Like me he feels they are far moere about fashion than they are about substance on the current group of Mom and Pop boats. He did put chines on his new 30' sportboat. ..
Yes, I think that the chines on the C&C 30 is a first for him. He designs mostly IRC racers or top cruiser-racers that as I have are the boats were chines are less useful.

Chines come and were developed on solo racers. It is not surprising that the ones that had developed them and use them for many years in racing boats are the ones with a better grasp over them and also the ones that use them on cruising boats. That's for example the case with Marc Lombard and Finot/Conq, the ones that have designed many 40 class racers, many Open60's and that also design the Jeanneau line (Marc lombard) and several Benetaus, including the 41 and the 38 (Finot Conq).

Another one that designs Open boats and class racers and also use chines on cruising boats is Rob Humphreys.

Regards

Paulo


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 02-04-2014 at 06:17 PM.
PCP is offline  
post #6008 of 6763 Old 02-04-2014
Senior Member
 
EricKLYC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Posts: 468
Thanks: 17
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Re: Interesting Sailboats

I find this discussion about chines very interesting. And it seems to me that –once again- there is not a single answer.

On one hand there’s the Hunter 40’ concept, a boat that certainly is not designed to sail well but especially to be comfortable under power and at anchor. These chines will also add a significant amount of volume in the aft cabins, which also perfectly fits the specific program of this boat.

On the other hand there’s the “open” formula racing yachts, designed to be as fast as possible within the limits of a box rule and that nowadays all have sharp chines.

Sailing one of these, albeit a cruising version, I can confirm Paulo’ analysis that a well designed, beamy and chined hull gives a huge form stability, which also permits to save on ballast and thus on weight. Especially when they also fit a very deep keel (3m on our Pogo 12.50 and therefore swinging).

I think we can all agree that this concept boosts performance because the low weight, reduced heel and very flat aft sections allow to plane early, even starting from a close reach.

And I confirm once again that this does not impair upwind performance. We are as fast –I’d rather say as slow- as almost any other as long as we don’t try to point. In other words: the VMG is as good -or as bad- as it gets with almost any other design. Except in very choppy conditions, because of wave drag, as Paulo explained in a much earlier post (I certainly hope you didn’t delete that one, Paulo!).
So if I quite dislike sailing upwind, it’s not because we’re slower but only because we know how much more fun we would have when bearing down, even a little.

But even in the context of non-planing Bénéteaus, Sun Odysseas, Hanses etc. I feel chines also can give added value, other than extra space in the aft cabins.

First, the ability to fit twin rudders further apart and therefore more efficiently, because of the much flatter aft section. I hate them when maneuvering because there’s almost no prop wash, but when sailing they give much better control and also demand less effort from the autopilot, especially downwind. This is certainly an important feature from an easy cruising point of view.

Second, as soon as the heel allows the sharp chines to “bite”, the point of lateral resistance moves aft and strongly reduces the weather helm caused by heeling. This once again results in better control, requiring less effort.

Third, these boats indeed don’t like to be heeled “over the chine” and will clearly let you know by slowing down, making leeway and –if you really didn’t take the message- rounding up very, very slowly. As my 470 dinghy coach teached me a long time ago: “sail the boat under the mast”. In other words: avoid excessive heel, reef early. Once again a useful feature for easy cruising.

So if we agree that most comfort cruisers don’t like to sail close hauled in choppy seas any more than I do, I feel well designed chined hulls do have more significant advantages than only “fashion”, added interior volume or less rolling under power or at anchor.

Best regards,

Eric
PCP likes this.
EricKLYC is offline  
post #6009 of 6763 Old 02-04-2014
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 4,128
Thanks: 1
Thanked 96 Times in 92 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Re: Interesting Sailboats

"Chines come and were developed on solo racers"

Get real Paulo. Have you never seen a Star Class sailboat? Chines have been around forever. We had chines before anyone knew what a "solo racer" was. Should I list the succesful chine boats over the last 100 years? It willbe a long list. I sailed an OK Dinghy when I was a kid. It was a good boat. It had chines. This was 1963.

"designed to be as fast as possible within the limits of a box rule and that nowadays all have sharp chines."

The TP52 is the most succesful of the box rule classes and they do not have chines. Be careful how you use the term "box rule" it is very specific. In fact the sterns of the fastest TP52's are what I'd call "anti-chine". Keep in mind these boats have to race upwind and down.

"On the other hand there’s the “open” formula racing yachts, designed to be as fast as possible within the limits of a box rule and that nowadays all have sharp chines. "

Yes, I agree and that is because these boat are designed to be sailed off the wind predominantly. They have huge rigs and can be pushed to planing speed by skilled crews thus making the chines very effective for over hull speed performance off the wind.

Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by bobperry; 02-04-2014 at 06:48 PM.
bobperry is offline  
post #6010 of 6763 Old 02-04-2014 Thread Starter
PCP
Senior Member
 
PCP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,201
Thanks: 21
Thanked 103 Times in 86 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by olianta View Post
QUOTE=bobperry :Rumen:
That's what I was thinking.
Kind of like the little wheels you add to a kids first bike until he learns to balance the bike. We call them "training wheels".


And once you learn to balance you take them off (with the rough grinder) because they hinder your counter steering.

Rumen
Yes, that is a good description and it comes to the encounter of what I have been saying: Even more than speed they are there to make sailing easier and that's why they are mostly used on solo racing boats were a solo sailor needs all help he can get and not in many top many racing crewed boats were a big and expert crew does not need the help of chines in what regards control and as they can introduce drag, for them the trade off can be a negative one.

That's also why they make sense in cruising boats were a solo or short crewed (and sometimes inexperienced) will gladly accept all help they can get in what regards easiness of sailing.

Regarding performance cruisers, if they are sailed or raced by a top crew, their use (those little wheels) can be dispensed but if the same boat is sailed by a short crew or solo then that help can be translated in a superior performance (like on the solo racers) because that solo sailor, with that extra help, will be able to exploit better the boat performance and actually go faster.

Regards

Paulo


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PCP is offline  
Closed Thread

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cruising sailboats for sale welch Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 10 04-25-2012 05:20 PM
THE Yacht Builder List T37Chef Boat Review and Purchase Forum 26 07-08-2011 05:51 AM
Noob wonderings and questions about sailing, life at sail and sailboats Vans General Discussion (sailing related) 49 06-20-2011 12:18 AM
A List of ALL sailboats made with layouts? Myblueheaven Boat Review and Purchase Forum 8 10-08-2010 11:32 AM
Failure to Navigate - interesting post on Panbo Blog & from the NewsReader Mass Bay Sailors 0 12-11-2006 06:15 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome