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  #6011  
Old 02-04-2014
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Re: Chines

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
On the first part you are going very well...then you messed up

Yes it is easier to design a hull without chines than with chines, I mean a good one with effective chines and it is also true that different hulls will have optimum chimes in different locations but sailing versatility has nothing to do with it.

Both on the Oceanis and on the sun Odyssey the chines will not interfere with the sailing ability till the optimum heel angle upwind is reached. The boat will be less effective past that angle and the chines are not to be passed but reaching that point of optimum heeling those chines will increase the stiffness of the boat and will help to prevent passing it, maintaining the boat on an optimum groove making sailing easier for a beginner or a cruiser on autopilot.

The boat will tell you very effectively when the optimum heeling angle is reached. You really have to try hard to pass over the chine...and you can almost hear the boat insulting your sailing abilities for trying it

Regards

Paulo
Then it means that the chines' purpose is to put limitations on your manner of sailing., acting as rails on a tram - you get punished if you derail, tram gets insulted . Like a modern car that alerts you if you cross the incessant line on the road. Do you think this feature is useful regarding sailing boats in the open sea? I do not want to adjust my sailing to the chines because I do not think they are the final word for optimal sailing.

Regards
Rumen
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  #6012  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
If you want to see a very successful narow boat with chines you should check out RAGTIME, a Spencer design. This boat is a downwind rocket and has been winning for about 35 years.

I'll leave it to Paulo to dig up some pics of it.
Thank you! This was new for me.
It supports the point that chines matter even on narrow hulls in downwind planing mode. http://m.youtube.com/watch?autoplay=...autoplay%253D1

Regards
Rumen
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  #6013  
Old 02-04-2014
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Re: Chines

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Originally Posted by olianta View Post
Then it means that the chines' purpose is to put limitations on your manner of sailing., acting as rails on a tram - you get punished if you derail, tram gets insulted :..
It seems you really have some difficulty on this. Yes your way of sailing should be adapted to each boat characteristics and not otherwise.

Each boat has an optimum way regarding being sailed effectively. Not all are the same. Some are more effective upwind with more heel, other with less.

If a boat does not only reminds the sailor about the better and more efficient heeling angle but also makes easier to find it and makes difficult bad and less efficient sailing, preventing him to pass that angle it is worse or less flexible than a boat that does not pass any information to the sailor?

Let me remind you that on top of all this that chine increases stiffness at the more efficient angle of heel, making the boat go slightly faster.

It beats me how you can see any of this as negative but I will insist no more, have it your own way

Regards

Paulo
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  #6014  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
I can remember ragtime, but never cared about her hull at that time...
Nevertheless if i look at her hull now, it reminds me strongly on the boats i posted previously - v shaped hull with the chines more or less used as lifting strakes...
Downwind about the lift I agree 100%. Upwind, when heeled, the leeward chine will be underwater most of the time, so it will not work, but I guess this will not be detrimental to the performance on such a narrow hull.

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Rumen
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Re: Chines

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
It seems you really have some difficulty on this. Yes your way of sailing should be adapted to each boat characteristics and not otherwise.

Each boat has an optimum way regarding being sailed effectively. Not all are the same. Some are more effective upwind with more heel, other with less.

If a boat does not only reminds the sailor about the better and more efficient heeling angle but also makes easier to find it and makes difficult bad and less efficient sailing, preventing him to pass that angle it is worse or less flexible than a boat that does not pass any information to the sailor?

Let me remind you that on top of all this that chine increases stiffness at the more efficient angle of heel, making the boat go slightly faster.

It beats me how you can see any of this as negative but I will insist no more, have it your own way

Regards

Paulo
Ok Paulo. We disagree. But this is a more philosophical disagreement. And I think also that no chines hull will deliver better information to the sailor who sails his boat badly.

But I am grateful to all valuable information and points you made about the chines and that you raised the polemics on chines on this thread that I follow much more than any other threads. Such topics are very enlightening and make one think and express opinions even when one may be wrong (talking about me). Otherwise if you are not qualified or enlightened you may just stare at the chines and think that they look cool. and that would be all.

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Rumen
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  #6016  
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Chines

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Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
and i forgot to mention that we talk here about planing hulls - and NOT hulls which only operate in displacement mode...
and now show me any of these mass-production cruisers with their hard chines aft ever reaching planing speeds...
the racing derivates like all the pogos leave aside please... benetaus, jeanneus, bavaris, hanses and that kind of breed is what i am talking about...
Sorry, I did not saw this post and that's why I did not understood well the next one

Yes, the cruisers that are designed to reach planing speed are not many but several performance cruisers are: All the JPK, Archambault, all the Pogo cruisers, Cigale and many more but you are right pointing out that is not the case with Beneteaus or the typical mass production cruiser or even the typical mass production performance cruiser.

But I guess that by now You have already understood what I am trying to say: The chines on Benetau also serve to increase boat stiffness at the best upwind angle and make sailing easier but they are not there to facilitate planing and are not designed the same way the ones used on a planing boat are.

Chines, If well designed, on a cruising boat or in a racing boat can increase stiffness and make sailing easier but the similitude stops there. The way a hull is designed and the way chines are used is not the same on a boat designed to plan and on a cruising boat that sails in displacement mode.

Regards

Paulo
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  #6017  
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Chines

Quote:
Originally Posted by olianta View Post
Downwind about the lift I agree 100%. Upwind, when heeled, the leeward chine will be underwater most of the time, so it will not work, but I guess this will not be detrimental to the performance on such a narrow hull.

Regards
Rumen
It will be less detrimental on a narrow boat.

The best example you can find of those type hulls are on the last America's cup mono-hull where on the last boats the hull has become more box like but where a hard chine was avoided. That was a desperate attempt to gain hull form stiffness on such a narrow boat (and it worked) but if they would not have been limited by max beam they would have just made a beamier boat.



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Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-04-2014 at 04:01 PM.
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  #6018  
Old 02-04-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Rumen:
That's what I was thinking.
Kind of like the little wheels you add to a kids first bike until he learns to balance the bike. We call them "training wheels".

Paulo:
RAGTIME has been upgraded and turbo'd and remains cometitive in downhill races. I think you should do some research into West Coast racing in the US before you comment on the qualioty of competition Rags has faced.

I had a long conversation with Mark Mills today. Mark did his internship in my office a few years back ( seems like a few). We remian good friends. We had a good talk about chines. Like me he feels they are far moere about fashion than they are about substance on the current group of Mom and Pop boats. He did put chines on his new 30' sportboat. We discussed chine geometries. Mark uses Computational Fluid Dynamic to help analyze his hulls but he said the CFD is of no use in evaluating the chines.
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  #6019  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Rumen:
That's what I was thinking.
Kind of like the little wheels you add to a kids first bike until he learns to balance the bike. We call them "training wheels".
And once you learn to balance you take them off (with the rough grinder) because they hinder your counter steering.

Rumen

Last edited by Faster; 02-07-2014 at 12:43 PM. Reason: fixed quote
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  #6020  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Yeah - ragtime won her division in the 2009 sydney hobart...
Not to bad for a 65 ft and 45 year old wooden boat, don't you think?
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