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  #6011  
Old 02-04-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

How do you "dispense" the chines? Rules don't let you throw things overboard while racing.

" Hey wait a minute,,,,Didn't you guys have chines at the beginning of the race?"
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  #6012  
Old 02-04-2014
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Chines

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
"Chines come and were developed on solo racers"

Get real Paulo. Have you never seen a Star Class sailboat? Chines have been around forever. We had chines before anyone knoew what a "solo racer" was.
....
The TP52 is the most succesful of the box rule classes and they do not have chines. Be careful how you use the term "box rule" it is very specific. In fact the sterns of the fastest TP52's are what I'd call "anti-chine".
There is here a big confusion and I only understood why you were talking about chines to gain interior space in cruising boats when we talked about the Hunter 40 that use that old type of chines used on the 50's and 60's (on the waterline). I was never referring to those chines but to modern ones that started to be use some years back and that in fact were developed on solo racers. They are not used the same way regarding the hull shape.

Regarding TP52 and top crewed racing boats not using chines I have been saying that for a while and if you see my last post regarding your example of the two little wheels example you can see why. Let me remember how this discussion of chines started:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I have posted this on another thread, that one already mentioned about chines:

I would like the collaboration of all regarding this subject, I mean if chines regarding solo boats, short crewed racing boats or long distance offshore racers seem to be a reality in modern top performance designs, in what regards top performance regatta boats things are not so clear and I would say that chines are not a performance option...or maybe they are and are not so widely used yet.

I would like to follow that trend here (regatta boats) and I ask the collaboration of all in what regards to have a look at new designs: are the chines an advantage in this case, or not? The answer relates in knowing if the chines relates with an absolute sailing performance or relates with a better control with a small loss of absolute performance, better control that in some cases can translate in better overall performance.

Only interested in very recent designs since only those will be relevant:

Just for starters:

The Farr 400 has chines:



The Ker 40 and the none of the TP 50 (that I know off) has chines:



I have been trying to explain what is obvious to me and that you have made clear with that example of the 2 little auxiliary wheels.

The interesting point for me is to know is what is at bold in the quoted post:to know if in racing crewed boats designed to have a balanced performance upwind and downwind, like the regatta boats for IRC or One design races, the chines are useful or not.

The rest is history, I mean their use in solo racers and cruisers are in plain view and they are used by the best NA with experience in chines. The interesting discussion is if they are useful on pure racing boats with a full crew and a balanced performance. That is where there are some boats with chines and many some without them. There is where the discussion is interesting.

By the way, the TP52 championship is sailed regatta style and has as much upwind sailing as downwind sailing. They can compete with narrower boats if they want. Designers don't make them because they would lose too much on the downwind legs regarding to what they can gain on the upwind ones.

Regards

Paulo
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  #6013  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
How do you "dispense" the chines? Rules don't let you throw things overboard while racing.

" Hey wait a minute,,,,Didn't you guys have chines at the beginning of the race?"
Yes that is why boats used for racing and cruising or crewed racing and also solo racing has to have a compromise regarding chines while the ones only for top crewed racing in regatta style (upwind and downwind) don't need any compromise regarding their use: They allow to go faster or not, independently of making sailing easier or not.

Regards

Paulo
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  #6014  
Old 02-04-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

The TP52's are very probably the most succesful "box" designs, but only for fully crewed daysailing up- and downwind between buoys. Without a nice clubhouse to chill down and a good hotel to recover, few of these crews would ever make it two days in a row.

So let's be serious Bob, let's not compare apples and pears. There's box rules and box rules.

Unless we ever see a TP52 competing in the Route du Rhum or Vendée Globe, this design tells us very little about the possible advantages for fast but easy and shorthanded cruising, probably 99% of the boat market.

Best regards,

Eric
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  #6015  
Old 02-04-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

I think you guys are selling chines. You act like car salesmen selling a tacked on spoiler. Are the chines built in China? Is that why you call them "chines"?

I'll say it slowly this time:
I have designed many boats with chines.
Once again:
I have designed many boats with chines.

This is my business. I am not a hobbyist.
I understand chines.
I understand chines

I have owned chined boats.
I have owned chined boats

There is a place for chines.I have said that all along.
I do not believe chines belong on every Mom and Pop boat.
If you guys need chines or training wheels so you can sail comfortably that's wonderful.

I am not interested in handicapping my own design with training wheels. I wil gladly let someone else design for the beginners who don't like to heel. If you need chines to be in fashion then great. Be in fashion. We know how long fashion lasts. Still got those Elton John shoes?

Your view is myopic. There are shapes for every kind of boat. Some benefit by chines and some don't. I agree. A high powered sport boat like the Farr 400 can benefit from chines. I guess. I don't hear much about the boat. You pick your performance target and you decide, "Will chines help the boat?" Some times the answer is "No. They will hurt the boat."

I am now going to leave this conversation. You see what you want to see. That works for you. Good. I work every day designing new boats. I have to do far more than speculate and guess. I have to produce and be very confident that what I produce works. That's the difference.


Tsia chien
Shin nien qui ler

Eric:
Unless we ever see a TP52 competing in the Route du Rhum or Vendé"e Globe, this design tells us very little about the possible advantages for fast but easy and shorthanded cruising, probably 99% of the boat market"

That is a really stupid statement. TP 52's were design for triangle courses. Does "99% of the boat market" sail in a Route du Rhum environment? I don't even know what to say to a statement like that. I do but I'm not going to.
Tsai chien
Gong hay fat choy
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Last edited by bobperry; 02-04-2014 at 08:01 PM.
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  #6016  
Old 02-04-2014
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Real performance and compensated one

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
Yeah - ragtime won her division in the 2009 sydney hobart...
Not to bad for a 65 ft and 45 year old wooden boat, don't you think?
I am used of that type of comments on other threads not on this one. You should know that any old slow boat can win on compensated time and that the number of years of a boat counts to lower the rating. what I said refereed clearly to absolute speed and performance and not what an old boat can do under handicap rules.

That boat was pretty incredible at is time. Today it is still fast but way outperformed in real time by racers of the same size and even by much smaller ones. That was what I wanted to say when I said it was not competitive. I was talking about design and absolute performance.

Regarding that race 8th Sydney Hobarth, the Ragtime (65ft boat) had done it in 2 days 10hour and 38 minutes more about 11 hours than a a Reichel Pugh 62 (1day 23hours and 6minutes) . And it was not the only case, many smaller boats have done better. Here are some of them: a Reichel Pugh 63 in 1day 23hours and 30minutes a Reichel Pugh 55 in 2days 57m, a TP52 in 2days 1hour and 1 minute and many more.

Regards

Paulo
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  #6017  
Old 02-05-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
...
That is a really stupid statement. TP 52's were design for triangle courses. Does "99% of the boat market" sail in a Route du Rhum environment? I don't even know what to say to a statement like that. I do but I'm not going to.
...
that is also not entirely correct...
TP stands for TransPacific and those class was developed to do both - round the can and offshore races...
in the past years it all moved towards the buoy races but they still compete in offshore races every now and then like the sydney hobart...
from the classes webpage:
Quote:
TP52’s have won most every bluewater regatta they have entered including; overall wins in the 2004 Bermuda Race, 2004 Chicago to Mackinac and the 2003 Transpac race to Hawaii.
Transpac 52 class | History of the TP52 Class

paulo - just kidding, don't take it seriously...
oh - btw, you might like this neat TP52:
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Last edited by capt vimes; 02-05-2014 at 04:14 AM.
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  #6018  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
I had a long conversation with Mark Mills today. Mark did his internship in my office a few years back ( seems like a few). We remian good friends. We had a good talk about chines. Like me he feels they are far moere about fashion than they are about substance on the current group of Mom and Pop boats. He did put chines on his new 30' sportboat. We discussed chine geometries. Mark uses Computational Fluid Dynamic to help analyze his hulls but he said the CFD is of no use in evaluating the chines.
38? Shorthanded Cruiser-Racer | Mills Design

So you think the chines are just a popular gag made by MM?
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  #6019  
Old 02-05-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats



No talk needed.
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Last edited by bobperry; 02-05-2014 at 07:55 AM.
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  #6020  
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Chines and rude self centered opinions

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
I do not believe chines belong on every Mom and Pop boat.
If you guys need chines or training wheels so you can sail comfortably that's wonderful.
I am not interested in handicapping my own design with training wheels. I wil gladly let someone else design for the beginners who don't like to heel. If you need chines to be in fashion then great. Be in fashion. We know how long fashion lasts. Still got those Elton John shoes?
Pretty contradicting argument:

First you say that chines are not for cruising boats than you say that they are for beginner sailors that need help in controlling the boat (admitting that they have a relevant paper in boat control) and then say that they are only for fashion
Fact is that by what you say and giving your comparison of chines on a cruising boat with training heels, they have a relevant paper in cruising boats that tend to be bigger and faster while continuing to be solo sailed or sailed with a little help from the wife.
I don’t care if you use chimes or not in your designs but saying that they handicap the performance of a cruising boat is not only contradictory with what you say as it makes no sense: If they are only fashionable and serves for nothing how they can handicap the performance of a cruiser? Besides facts shows that almost all racing boats designed today for solo racing use them so in fact that better control even if it results in a slightly loss of performance (and that is disputable) can in reality make the racer go faster and with better reason will make a cruising boat go faster.
Facts show that a solo racer will benefit from chines in what regards performance added by the superior easiness of sailing and you think that a cruiser, sailed with less experienced and also short crew, will not also benefit in performance from that superior easiness? Or do you think that all that design solo racers with chine do that also for fashionable reasons? That does not make sense since they are the ones that design the winning boats.
And what is this all about?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post


I think you guys are selling chines. You act like car salesmen selling a tacked on spoiler. Are the chines built in China? Is that why you call them "chines"? I'll say it slowly this time:I have designed many boats with chines.
Once again:
I have designed many boats with chines. This is my business. I am not a hobbyist.
I understand chines. I understand chines. I have owned chined boats. I have owned chined boats.…
Your view is myopic. …
I rarely shower. I smell like my dogs, I wear woolen shirts. My hair looks funny. I own two pair of shoes. I'm not Euro.

(I do have an amazing, very expensive hi-fi system probably cost as much as your yacht)

But I sure do like exchanging ideas with you. You are an amazing reference for whatever is new in European boats.
Tsia chien Shin nien qui ler…Gong hay fat choy
I don’t need you patronizing me. I am interested in facts and fact is that you design nice looking boats and had in the past a relevant paper in what regards evolution of sailing boats but I am nor particularly interested in what you do now. Regarding chines I have read several opinions from NA that work in their development regarding their use in top racing solo boats, your opinion is one more but I would say that one thing is to use chines occasionally other thing is to develop them in a modern way in a racing context. Obviously I am far more interested on the opinions and on the use that those NAs are giving to them and in the way they are using what they have learned in racing development to improve their cruising designs, than on the opinion of someone that think they are a fashion.
More than in opinions and theory I am interested in facts and analyzing them. Facts show that modern chines are used by all top solo racing sailboats designs and are used for several functions. Facts show that those designers, the ones that have more experience with modern chines, started to use them also in their cruising boats, mainly to make them easier to sail and therefore faster for the average crewed sailboat and to all short crew sailboats. These are facts and are evident.
More than what is evident already I am interested in the frontier in what regards modern use of chines and what is not evident yet: If a regatta racing boat maximized for overall performance with a full crew will benefit with the use or modern chines or not. That is the interesting subject because reality shows that the best designers, contrary to solo racing boats and in some extent cruising, are divided about it in what regards performance and some are using them others not. I don’t care if they use chines or not I am interested in the effectiveness of them (or not) in what regards pure performance in a boat sailed by a big and expert crew.

Regarding your participation on this thread you are welcome if you abandon that attitude kind off : I am the one I know it all and other opinions or other ways of designing sailboats (even if they perform better than yours) are wrong and the boats just fashionable or plain wrong. And also abandon the rudeness that kind of self centered vision implies and that you express with crude words. For that type of rude talk, bitter discussion and insulting language you have other threads, not this one.
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