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  #6021  
Old 02-04-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry;1379249....

I had a long conversation with Mark Mills today. Mark did his internship in my office a few years back ( seems like a few). We remian good friends. We had a good talk about chines. Like me he feels they are far moere about fashion than they are about substance on the current group of Mom and Pop boats. He did put chines on his new 30' sportboat. ..
Yes, I think that the chines on the C&C 30 is a first for him. He designs mostly IRC racers or top cruiser-racers that as I have are the boats were chines are less useful.

Chines come and were developed on solo racers. It is not surprising that the ones that had developed them and use them for many years in racing boats are the ones with a better grasp over them and also the ones that use them on cruising boats. That's for example the case with Marc Lombard and Finot/Conq, the ones that have designed many 40 class racers, many Open60's and that also design the Jeanneau line (Marc lombard) and several Benetaus, including the 41 and the 38 (Finot Conq).

Another one that designs Open boats and class racers and also use chines on cruising boats is Rob Humphreys.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-04-2014 at 06:17 PM.
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  #6022  
Old 02-04-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

I find this discussion about chines very interesting. And it seems to me that –once again- there is not a single answer.

On one hand there’s the Hunter 40’ concept, a boat that certainly is not designed to sail well but especially to be comfortable under power and at anchor. These chines will also add a significant amount of volume in the aft cabins, which also perfectly fits the specific program of this boat.

On the other hand there’s the “open” formula racing yachts, designed to be as fast as possible within the limits of a box rule and that nowadays all have sharp chines.

Sailing one of these, albeit a cruising version, I can confirm Paulo’ analysis that a well designed, beamy and chined hull gives a huge form stability, which also permits to save on ballast and thus on weight. Especially when they also fit a very deep keel (3m on our Pogo 12.50 and therefore swinging).

I think we can all agree that this concept boosts performance because the low weight, reduced heel and very flat aft sections allow to plane early, even starting from a close reach.

And I confirm once again that this does not impair upwind performance. We are as fast –I’d rather say as slow- as almost any other as long as we don’t try to point. In other words: the VMG is as good -or as bad- as it gets with almost any other design. Except in very choppy conditions, because of wave drag, as Paulo explained in a much earlier post (I certainly hope you didn’t delete that one, Paulo!).
So if I quite dislike sailing upwind, it’s not because we’re slower but only because we know how much more fun we would have when bearing down, even a little.

But even in the context of non-planing Bénéteaus, Sun Odysseas, Hanses etc. I feel chines also can give added value, other than extra space in the aft cabins.

First, the ability to fit twin rudders further apart and therefore more efficiently, because of the much flatter aft section. I hate them when maneuvering because there’s almost no prop wash, but when sailing they give much better control and also demand less effort from the autopilot, especially downwind. This is certainly an important feature from an easy cruising point of view.

Second, as soon as the heel allows the sharp chines to “bite”, the point of lateral resistance moves aft and strongly reduces the weather helm caused by heeling. This once again results in better control, requiring less effort.

Third, these boats indeed don’t like to be heeled “over the chine” and will clearly let you know by slowing down, making leeway and –if you really didn’t take the message- rounding up very, very slowly. As my 470 dinghy coach teached me a long time ago: “sail the boat under the mast”. In other words: avoid excessive heel, reef early. Once again a useful feature for easy cruising.

So if we agree that most comfort cruisers don’t like to sail close hauled in choppy seas any more than I do, I feel well designed chined hulls do have more significant advantages than only “fashion”, added interior volume or less rolling under power or at anchor.

Best regards,

Eric
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  #6023  
Old 02-04-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

"Chines come and were developed on solo racers"

Get real Paulo. Have you never seen a Star Class sailboat? Chines have been around forever. We had chines before anyone knew what a "solo racer" was. Should I list the succesful chine boats over the last 100 years? It willbe a long list. I sailed an OK Dinghy when I was a kid. It was a good boat. It had chines. This was 1963.

"designed to be as fast as possible within the limits of a box rule and that nowadays all have sharp chines."

The TP52 is the most succesful of the box rule classes and they do not have chines. Be careful how you use the term "box rule" it is very specific. In fact the sterns of the fastest TP52's are what I'd call "anti-chine". Keep in mind these boats have to race upwind and down.

"On the other hand there’s the “open” formula racing yachts, designed to be as fast as possible within the limits of a box rule and that nowadays all have sharp chines. "

Yes, I agree and that is because these boat are designed to be sailed off the wind predominantly. They have huge rigs and can be pushed to planing speed by skilled crews thus making the chines very effective for over hull speed performance off the wind.
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Last edited by bobperry; 02-04-2014 at 06:48 PM.
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  #6024  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by olianta View Post
QUOTE=bobperry :Rumen:
That's what I was thinking.
Kind of like the little wheels you add to a kids first bike until he learns to balance the bike. We call them "training wheels".


And once you learn to balance you take them off (with the rough grinder) because they hinder your counter steering.

Rumen
Yes, that is a good description and it comes to the encounter of what I have been saying: Even more than speed they are there to make sailing easier and that's why they are mostly used on solo racing boats were a solo sailor needs all help he can get and not in many top many racing crewed boats were a big and expert crew does not need the help of chines in what regards control and as they can introduce drag, for them the trade off can be a negative one.

That's also why they make sense in cruising boats were a solo or short crewed (and sometimes inexperienced) will gladly accept all help they can get in what regards easiness of sailing.

Regarding performance cruisers, if they are sailed or raced by a top crew, their use (those little wheels) can be dispensed but if the same boat is sailed by a short crew or solo then that help can be translated in a superior performance (like on the solo racers) because that solo sailor, with that extra help, will be able to exploit better the boat performance and actually go faster.

Regards

Paulo
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  #6025  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

How do you "dispense" the chines? Rules don't let you throw things overboard while racing.

" Hey wait a minute,,,,Didn't you guys have chines at the beginning of the race?"
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  #6026  
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Chines

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
"Chines come and were developed on solo racers"

Get real Paulo. Have you never seen a Star Class sailboat? Chines have been around forever. We had chines before anyone knoew what a "solo racer" was.
....
The TP52 is the most succesful of the box rule classes and they do not have chines. Be careful how you use the term "box rule" it is very specific. In fact the sterns of the fastest TP52's are what I'd call "anti-chine".
There is here a big confusion and I only understood why you were talking about chines to gain interior space in cruising boats when we talked about the Hunter 40 that use that old type of chines used on the 50's and 60's (on the waterline). I was never referring to those chines but to modern ones that started to be use some years back and that in fact were developed on solo racers. They are not used the same way regarding the hull shape.

Regarding TP52 and top crewed racing boats not using chines I have been saying that for a while and if you see my last post regarding your example of the two little wheels example you can see why. Let me remember how this discussion of chines started:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I have posted this on another thread, that one already mentioned about chines:

I would like the collaboration of all regarding this subject, I mean if chines regarding solo boats, short crewed racing boats or long distance offshore racers seem to be a reality in modern top performance designs, in what regards top performance regatta boats things are not so clear and I would say that chines are not a performance option...or maybe they are and are not so widely used yet.

I would like to follow that trend here (regatta boats) and I ask the collaboration of all in what regards to have a look at new designs: are the chines an advantage in this case, or not? The answer relates in knowing if the chines relates with an absolute sailing performance or relates with a better control with a small loss of absolute performance, better control that in some cases can translate in better overall performance.

Only interested in very recent designs since only those will be relevant:

Just for starters:

The Farr 400 has chines:



The Ker 40 and the none of the TP 50 (that I know off) has chines:



I have been trying to explain what is obvious to me and that you have made clear with that example of the 2 little auxiliary wheels.

The interesting point for me is to know is what is at bold in the quoted post:to know if in racing crewed boats designed to have a balanced performance upwind and downwind, like the regatta boats for IRC or One design races, the chines are useful or not.

The rest is history, I mean their use in solo racers and cruisers are in plain view and they are used by the best NA with experience in chines. The interesting discussion is if they are useful on pure racing boats with a full crew and a balanced performance. That is where there are some boats with chines and many some without them. There is where the discussion is interesting.

By the way, the TP52 championship is sailed regatta style and has as much upwind sailing as downwind sailing. They can compete with narrower boats if they want. Designers don't make them because they would lose too much on the downwind legs regarding to what they can gain on the upwind ones.

Regards

Paulo
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  #6027  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
How do you "dispense" the chines? Rules don't let you throw things overboard while racing.

" Hey wait a minute,,,,Didn't you guys have chines at the beginning of the race?"
Yes that is why boats used for racing and cruising or crewed racing and also solo racing has to have a compromise regarding chines while the ones only for top crewed racing in regatta style (upwind and downwind) don't need any compromise regarding their use: They allow to go faster or not, independently of making sailing easier or not.

Regards

Paulo
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  #6028  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

The TP52's are very probably the most succesful "box" designs, but only for fully crewed daysailing up- and downwind between buoys. Without a nice clubhouse to chill down and a good hotel to recover, few of these crews would ever make it two days in a row.

So let's be serious Bob, let's not compare apples and pears. There's box rules and box rules.

Unless we ever see a TP52 competing in the Route du Rhum or Vendée Globe, this design tells us very little about the possible advantages for fast but easy and shorthanded cruising, probably 99% of the boat market.

Best regards,

Eric
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  #6029  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

I think you guys are selling chines. You act like car salesmen selling a tacked on spoiler. Are the chines built in China? Is that why you call them "chines"?

I'll say it slowly this time:
I have designed many boats with chines.
Once again:
I have designed many boats with chines.

This is my business. I am not a hobbyist.
I understand chines.
I understand chines

I have owned chined boats.
I have owned chined boats

There is a place for chines.I have said that all along.
I do not believe chines belong on every Mom and Pop boat.
If you guys need chines or training wheels so you can sail comfortably that's wonderful.

I am not interested in handicapping my own design with training wheels. I wil gladly let someone else design for the beginners who don't like to heel. If you need chines to be in fashion then great. Be in fashion. We know how long fashion lasts. Still got those Elton John shoes?

Your view is myopic. There are shapes for every kind of boat. Some benefit by chines and some don't. I agree. A high powered sport boat like the Farr 400 can benefit from chines. I guess. I don't hear much about the boat. You pick your performance target and you decide, "Will chines help the boat?" Some times the answer is "No. They will hurt the boat."

I am now going to leave this conversation. You see what you want to see. That works for you. Good. I work every day designing new boats. I have to do far more than speculate and guess. I have to produce and be very confident that what I produce works. That's the difference.


Tsia chien
Shin nien qui ler

Eric:
Unless we ever see a TP52 competing in the Route du Rhum or Vendé"e Globe, this design tells us very little about the possible advantages for fast but easy and shorthanded cruising, probably 99% of the boat market"

That is a really stupid statement. TP 52's were design for triangle courses. Does "99% of the boat market" sail in a Route du Rhum environment? I don't even know what to say to a statement like that. I do but I'm not going to.
Tsai chien
Gong hay fat choy
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Last edited by bobperry; 02-04-2014 at 08:01 PM.
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  #6030  
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Real performance and compensated one

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
Yeah - ragtime won her division in the 2009 sydney hobart...
Not to bad for a 65 ft and 45 year old wooden boat, don't you think?
I am used of that type of comments on other threads not on this one. You should know that any old slow boat can win on compensated time and that the number of years of a boat counts to lower the rating. what I said refereed clearly to absolute speed and performance and not what an old boat can do under handicap rules.

That boat was pretty incredible at is time. Today it is still fast but way outperformed in real time by racers of the same size and even by much smaller ones. That was what I wanted to say when I said it was not competitive. I was talking about design and absolute performance.

Regarding that race 8th Sydney Hobarth, the Ragtime (65ft boat) had done it in 2 days 10hour and 38 minutes more about 11 hours than a a Reichel Pugh 62 (1day 23hours and 6minutes) . And it was not the only case, many smaller boats have done better. Here are some of them: a Reichel Pugh 63 in 1day 23hours and 30minutes a Reichel Pugh 55 in 2days 57m, a TP52 in 2days 1hour and 1 minute and many more.

Regards

Paulo
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