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  #6031  
Old 02-05-2014
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The new Ker designed McConaghy 50

I had already talked about this boat that is very powerful and super fast but I found out a movie about it. Pity that has a very bad definition but shows up an unexpected Ker facet: the light control on the interior and plenty of it. For me that's what makes this boat stand out from the other Ker cruiser racers, this one has an amazing lighting and that can has the potential for a very nice interior.

Looking at the boat we would say: Another very fast cruiser racer with a lousy and dark interior, since the height of the cabin is very low. Not this one is different in a very creative way. Without losing the sail advantages of a very low cabin this boat has an interior with lots of light and that makes it, as that cockpit table arrangement, more of a performance cruiser. Have a look how the illumination works:

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  #6032  
Old 02-05-2014
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Re: More on Mills and Chines

Interestingly, Mills drew chines on his design for the VSA 45 IRC racer, as well as on the 38-foot short-handed cruiser-racer. However, in his brief comments on the IRC boat, he doesn't mention the import of including chines.





While I haven't weighed in on the heated exchange with Bob Perry, I confess to having been a bit puzzled by his reference to his conversation with Mills on this topic.

Here's what Mills says about the 38: "This chined high performance cruiser-racer combines a modern comfortable interior with the most visible and useful Open design type traits to create a very versatile, fast, and powerful shorthanded performer."

He then goes on to observe: "The resulting design would have high initial stability without crew on the rail making it a pleasure to shorthand and cruise, and offers exceptional reaching performance, important to the non-racing cruisers and offshore racers alike."

This is essentially the case Paulo has been making from the start, yet somehow Mills didn't mention these points to Bob in the course of their conversation on the topic? I find that hard to believe.

What Mills doesn't comment on is whether or not chines are of value within the IRC framework - i.e., crewed buoy / short-distance racing, with a relatively equal balance of upwind and downwind sailing. I'm going to go out on a limb and conjecture that he would probably say the same thing Paulo has been saying: "Under IRC, fully crewed boats, competently sailed within their design parameters, don't really benefit from chines."

And my experience racing against the Ker 43 "Ptarmigan" (now "Otra Vez") at Block Island Race Week in 2011 under IRC would seem to confirm that. In light-to-moderate conditions, on windward-leeward course, "Ptarmigan" was unbeatable, in the hands of a very experienced racing crew (I was aboard a custom Schumacher 50 - we were only competitive against "Ptarmigan" in really light breeze, upwind and VMG running). "Ptarmigan" was also very fast in the 2012 Newport-Bermuda Race, finishing first in IRC 9 (only 6 hours behind the fastest TP52 in elapsed time - and probably would have done better but apparently lost all their instruments in what was a very wet and windy race). Interestingly, the Carkeek HP 40 "Decision", which sports a very mild chine quite a way aft, beat "Ptarmigan" by 5 hours on elapsed, and also corrected out ahead by the same in Division "8" IRC, beating two TP52s in the process.

All this to say that I find myself aligned with Mills and Paulo over Bob on the chines topic. I'm looking forward to an opporunity to sail Rob Humphrey's Elan 320 design and form my own opinion.
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  #6033  
Old 02-05-2014
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Lionel lemonchois

I had posted about him recently. If you don't remember maybe you remember the sailor that was on the middle of the Atlantic on a capsized giant multihull?

Yes that was him. That was 8 days ago and he is still there waiting two more days. On this cold and hard winter, living upside down, he waits patiently the rescue team that is going to put again the trimaran on its feet before towing it. Tough these solo sailors

As you may recall he was trying to beat a record while things went wrong. He was interviewed and has told the story (translated):


"The boat was close hauled in 16-17 knots of wind. The wind was easing off. I was under full mainsail and jib. I decided to go to rest inside. I had not done that for several days. The wind returned. When I shocked the sails they did not went lose. The butts had dried around winches and remained stiff. It took a little time to let them, a few seconds...and then it was too late. A stupid and fatal accident.

... As there was a bit of swell and I was afraid that the broken mast could damage the mast from below. Quickly, I went into the water to cut the mast out in order to preserve the platform. There is nothing under the boat. The mast was not recoverable, it broke in two during capsize."


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Last edited by PCP; 02-05-2014 at 06:23 PM.
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  #6034  
Old 02-05-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Pelic ano:
I have known Mark Mills since he interned in my office years ago. And no, you do not know what went on in the conversation.

" I find myself aligned with Mills and Paulo over Bob "
Can you explain to me exactly what my position on chines is?
I hope you have been reading carefully.
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  #6035  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Hi Bob -

Am aware of your lengthy and close relationship with Mark, of which you have reminded us on several occasions. Clearly he learned a great deal during his internship with you, and I'm sure it has contributed to his success.

I was referring, specifically, to your "training wheel" analogy and "fashion" (i.e., cosmetic) references. My sense is that Mills would never use chines for either reason, and he does choose to use them, justifying the choice, at least with respect to the 38', in precisely the terms that Paulo has been using, with respect to Open class racers and shorthanded sailing.

That's pretty much my take on the extended dialogue between you and Paulo on this topic. I'd be more engaged, myself, but the friggin' New England winter is totally disrupting my commutes back and forth to work, and cutting into my quality forum time.

Best regards,

MrP
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  #6036  
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Luffe 3.6

I think Pelicano was quite clear in what he said and explained well why he said it. That discussion is finished and I don't want this thread to become like that one on steel boats, bitter and nasty.

Changing subject and I hope for good, a very nice narrow modern boat without chines. Quite classical on its lines but also modern in the hull design with the beam pulled back, the Luffe 3.6.








We had talked already about it but a nice movie had turned out with Oluf, its designer at the tiller.

Sailing the new Luffe 3.6 from Olav Taraldsen on Vimeo.

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Last edited by PCP; 02-05-2014 at 07:09 PM.
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  #6037  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Pelican:
Maybe you should read what I wrote before coming to a decision on what my postion on chines is. That's what I would do. I presume your understanding of Mark's position on chines is based on that one boat.

Yes I used the training wheel analogy but that was one comment on one kind of boat with one kind of chine. But I really don't think you know what my position on chines is.
I'm not sure I have a "position on chines". I'd love to hear it.

I have said all along the application of chines has to be matched to the specific boat and it's intended target performance. That seems like simple naval architecture to me.
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  #6038  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
I have said all along the application of chines has to be matched to the specific boat and it's intended target performance. That seems like simple naval architecture to me.
In which case, there is no disagreement between you and Paulo at all, if your position can be summed up in the paragraph above.

I don't believe anyone in this thread has argued that chines are a go-fast / track-like-a-slot-car design feature that can be applied to any boat and magically transform it into a race winner and/or superior cruising platform. If they did, and I missed it, please point me to the claim(s).

I confess that I don't have the luxury of parsing every word of every post like it was Holy Scripture, but I draw impressions from the aggregate of the exchanges on topics like this one, in which I claim no expertise whatsoever, other than having raced at a fairly high level on boats of every type for over 40 years, and reading as much as I can.

Ultimately, nobody is challenging your credentials as a successful, highly regarded NA, whose opinions on such things as chines deserve to be taken seriously. But I have to agree with Paulo that there has been more heat than light in many of the exchanges in this thread, and for the life of me I don't understand why that is.

Clearly there are solid hydrodynamic and engineering reasons to use chines for particular applications on contemporary racing and cruising boats. Many equally successful NAs do so; other equally successful NAs don't, for similar applications. What we're seeking to understand is what specific factors in the design brief influence the decision to employ them or not.

With respect to Open class race boats, like the IMOCA 60s and Classe 40's, we grasp the value of chines given the primary use to which these boats are put: extended, solo / DH offshore racing, primarily downwind. And we understand why some of the virtues that chines bring in that specific application may also hold for peformance cruisers which also spend a good portion of their lives sailing shorthanded in extended offshore / downwind scenarios (or are intended to; like SUVs, plenty of them barely make it out of the marina for a Friday evening cocktail cruise ).

Perhaps a question I might address to you is the following: If François Gabart showed up in your office tomorrow, a bag of Euros in his hand, and asked you to design an IMOCA 60 for him, would you build it with chines or not? If so, why? If not, why not?

Similarly, if Beneteau commissioned you to design a replacement for the new Oceanis 38, with the design brief of being a stable and comfortable platform for fast offshore cruising by couples, chines or no chines?

I promise to read every word very, very carefully.
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  #6039  
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Re: Luffe 3.6

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I think Pelicano was quite clear in what he said and explained well why he said it. That discussion is finished and I don't want this thread to become like that one on steel boats, bitter and nasty.

Changing subject and I hope for good, a very nice narrow modern boat without chines. Quite classical on its lines but also modern in the hull design with the beam pulled back, the Luffe 3.6.

We had talked already about it but a nice movie had turned out with Oluf, its designer at the tiller.
This is really a lovely boat and looks like a joy to sail, upwind and downwind. Doesn't someone who posts regularly to this forum have one in build right now? I seem to recall that this is the case. If so, I can understand why he would want one.

Doesn't fit my design brief, of course, but I want to go fast offshore, downwind, by myself, for extended periods. But if I was going to spend the rest of my life cruising New England and Long Island Sound, this is a boat I would be happy to own.
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  #6040  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Pelican:
Nope I would not design a IMOCA boat with or without chines. I'm comfy here in my beach shack and I don't need the money that badly. But the real reason I would not take that job for any amount of money is that I have never done a boat like that and I'm not sure I would be the best person for the job. In a self indulgent way I'd like to do it but I would not be doing the client a favor. He can go to Farr and get more experience with that kind of boat. My interest is doing the boats I know I can do better than others, the boats I like to use myself. I'd love to sit in on the meetings Gabart would have with the designer he chose. That would be fun. I'd love to have access to all that design research money. For me, now, it's all about enjoying what I do and knowing I do it well.


I'd be happy to draw a boat for Beneteau. Not sure if I'd go with chines or not. It's not that simple a decision for me. I'd have to get into the preliminary design stage and take a look at the benefits offerred by chines if any. I might run some VPP's and compare a chine hull against a non chine hull. Maybe then move the chine around a bit and see if there are any significant changes in performance. The stuff I normally do with VPP's. I play. As I have said over and over I have designed boats with chines. I am not "anti chine" the simplistic way I am painted here. I just view the application of chines specific to the project and not as a blanket panacea recognizing that there are huge variations in chined hulls.

But you see, I could not take a job for Beneteau. I don't want to design Euro decks. I hate the bloated tennis shoe look. And again, I would not be good at that. There are other designers very good at that modern styling. I want to stay in my comfort zone.


The phones ringing,,,hold on,,,It's Beneteau.
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