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  #6031  
Old 02-05-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
...
That is a really stupid statement. TP 52's were design for triangle courses. Does "99% of the boat market" sail in a Route du Rhum environment? I don't even know what to say to a statement like that. I do but I'm not going to.
...
that is also not entirely correct...
TP stands for TransPacific and those class was developed to do both - round the can and offshore races...
in the past years it all moved towards the buoy races but they still compete in offshore races every now and then like the sydney hobart...
from the classes webpage:
Quote:
TP52’s have won most every bluewater regatta they have entered including; overall wins in the 2004 Bermuda Race, 2004 Chicago to Mackinac and the 2003 Transpac race to Hawaii.
Transpac 52 class | History of the TP52 Class

paulo - just kidding, don't take it seriously...
oh - btw, you might like this neat TP52:
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Last edited by capt vimes; 02-05-2014 at 05:14 AM.
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  #6032  
Old 02-05-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
I had a long conversation with Mark Mills today. Mark did his internship in my office a few years back ( seems like a few). We remian good friends. We had a good talk about chines. Like me he feels they are far moere about fashion than they are about substance on the current group of Mom and Pop boats. He did put chines on his new 30' sportboat. We discussed chine geometries. Mark uses Computational Fluid Dynamic to help analyze his hulls but he said the CFD is of no use in evaluating the chines.
38? Shorthanded Cruiser-Racer | Mills Design

So you think the chines are just a popular gag made by MM?
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  #6033  
Old 02-05-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats



No talk needed.
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Last edited by bobperry; 02-05-2014 at 08:55 AM.
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  #6034  
Old 02-05-2014
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Chines and rude self centered opinions

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
I do not believe chines belong on every Mom and Pop boat.
If you guys need chines or training wheels so you can sail comfortably that's wonderful.
I am not interested in handicapping my own design with training wheels. I wil gladly let someone else design for the beginners who don't like to heel. If you need chines to be in fashion then great. Be in fashion. We know how long fashion lasts. Still got those Elton John shoes?
Pretty contradicting argument:

First you say that chines are not for cruising boats than you say that they are for beginner sailors that need help in controlling the boat (admitting that they have a relevant paper in boat control) and then say that they are only for fashion
Fact is that by what you say and giving your comparison of chines on a cruising boat with training heels, they have a relevant paper in cruising boats that tend to be bigger and faster while continuing to be solo sailed or sailed with a little help from the wife.
I donít care if you use chimes or not in your designs but saying that they handicap the performance of a cruising boat is not only contradictory with what you say as it makes no sense: If they are only fashionable and serves for nothing how they can handicap the performance of a cruiser? Besides facts shows that almost all racing boats designed today for solo racing use them so in fact that better control even if it results in a slightly loss of performance (and that is disputable) can in reality make the racer go faster and with better reason will make a cruising boat go faster.
Facts show that a solo racer will benefit from chines in what regards performance added by the superior easiness of sailing and you think that a cruiser, sailed with less experienced and also short crew, will not also benefit in performance from that superior easiness? Or do you think that all that design solo racers with chine do that also for fashionable reasons? That does not make sense since they are the ones that design the winning boats.
And what is this all about?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post


I think you guys are selling chines. You act like car salesmen selling a tacked on spoiler. Are the chines built in China? Is that why you call them "chines"? I'll say it slowly this time:I have designed many boats with chines.
Once again:
I have designed many boats with chines. This is my business. I am not a hobbyist.
I understand chines. I understand chines. I have owned chined boats. I have owned chined boats.Ö
Your view is myopic. Ö
I rarely shower. I smell like my dogs, I wear woolen shirts. My hair looks funny. I own two pair of shoes. I'm not Euro.

(I do have an amazing, very expensive hi-fi system probably cost as much as your yacht)

But I sure do like exchanging ideas with you. You are an amazing reference for whatever is new in European boats.
Tsia chien Shin nien qui lerÖGong hay fat choy
I donít need you patronizing me. I am interested in facts and fact is that you design nice looking boats and had in the past a relevant paper in what regards evolution of sailing boats but I am nor particularly interested in what you do now. Regarding chines I have read several opinions from NA that work in their development regarding their use in top racing solo boats, your opinion is one more but I would say that one thing is to use chines occasionally other thing is to develop them in a modern way in a racing context. Obviously I am far more interested on the opinions and on the use that those NAs are giving to them and in the way they are using what they have learned in racing development to improve their cruising designs, than on the opinion of someone that think they are a fashion.
More than in opinions and theory I am interested in facts and analyzing them. Facts show that modern chines are used by all top solo racing sailboats designs and are used for several functions. Facts show that those designers, the ones that have more experience with modern chines, started to use them also in their cruising boats, mainly to make them easier to sail and therefore faster for the average crewed sailboat and to all short crew sailboats. These are facts and are evident.
More than what is evident already I am interested in the frontier in what regards modern use of chines and what is not evident yet: If a regatta racing boat maximized for overall performance with a full crew will benefit with the use or modern chines or not. That is the interesting subject because reality shows that the best designers, contrary to solo racing boats and in some extent cruising, are divided about it in what regards performance and some are using them others not. I donít care if they use chines or not I am interested in the effectiveness of them (or not) in what regards pure performance in a boat sailed by a big and expert crew.

Regarding your participation on this thread you are welcome if you abandon that attitude kind off : I am the one I know it all and other opinions or other ways of designing sailboats (even if they perform better than yours) are wrong and the boats just fashionable or plain wrong. And also abandon the rudeness that kind of self centered vision implies and that you express with crude words. For that type of rude talk, bitter discussion and insulting language you have other threads, not this one.
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  #6035  
Old 02-05-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post


No talk needed.
More of the same?

Regards

Paulo
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  #6036  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by robelz View Post
38? Shorthanded Cruiser-Racer | Mills Design

So you think the chines are just a popular gag made by MM?


Very nice design, but one more that sold is soul to fashion

"A chined high-performance Cruiser-Racer optimised for a couple....The resulting design would has high initial stability without crew on the rail making it a pleasure to shorthand and cruise, and offers exceptional reaching performance, important to the non-racing cruisers and offshore racers alike."

Regards

Paulo
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  #6037  
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Ragtime

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
....
paulo - just kidding, don't take it seriously...
...]
sorry if I was too harsh but I was pissed with the rudeness that was creeping on this thread. I try not to make a point on my opinions and try to adapt them to facts and reality. I am here to share but most of all to learn with you all.

One of the best things regarding this thread is that it has joined very interesting and knowledgeable people, sailors that are not only interested in boat design but that actually sail or race top boats that are in the edge of cruising and racing development. Their opinions, knowledge and participation has permitted us all to have a better understanding of the advantages or disadvantages associated with new sailing design developments.

Regarding Ragtime, a truly fantastic 62ft boat for its time, designed in New Zealand by Jonh Spencer, its hard chines have also to due with the material used to built it: Plywood. If those chines were slightly rounded, like they are on the last monohul America's cup boats, I am not sure if the overall performance would be better, probably yes and almost certainly better upwind.

"Ragtime began in 1964 as a yacht named Infidel and eventually made her way to California after being excluded from races in New Zealand because of her light construction. She is built of plywood and has hard chines as a consequence. The Long Beach Syndicate made history as Ragtime was first to finish in the 1973 Transpac."

Here you have some great movies with that boat:

HYC MEMORIES - RAGTIME SAILS FRIDAY NIGHT, MILES ANDERSON from MILES ANDERSON on Vimeo.







Regards

Paulo
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  #6038  
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Re: Chines and rude self centered opinions

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post

Regarding your participation on this thread you are welcome if you abandon that attitude kind off : I am the one I know it all and other opinions or other ways of designing sailboats (even if they perform better than yours) are wrong and the boats just fashionable or plain wrong. And also abandon the rudeness that kind of self centered vision implies and that you express with crude words. For that type of rude talk, bitter discussion and insulting language you have other threads, not this one.
Paulo, I don't think Mr.Perry is patronizing us, neither that his language is rude and insulting (the exception being the qualification "stupid" regarding Eric's opinion at the end of post 6029 just before the text in mandarin). It is obvious that Mr.Perry has strong yopinions on the issue of chines (like you do) and he expresses them in a more straightforward and less explanatory manner. I believe that your last sentence of your quoted post "For that type of rude talk, bitter discussion and insulting language you have other threads, not this one" will not benefit this thread if Mr. Perry decides not to post anymore here. I will miss him and I believe I will not be the only one. He is a well known designer and I do not accept the depreciating view that this qualification is relevant only to the history of yacht design.

Regards
Rumen
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  #6039  
Old 02-05-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Thanks Rumen. I appreciate your support. I'll watch the thread because I like being kept updated on the new boats. But I'll stay quiet. There isn't any more I need to say. Paulo's words are fine. He obviously feels threatened. I didn't intend that. No offense taken.
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  #6040  
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Re: Chines and rude self centered opinions

Quote:
Originally Posted by olianta View Post
Paulo, I don't think Mr.Perry is patronizing us, neither that his language is rude and insulting (the exception being the qualification "stupid" regarding Eric's opinion at the end of post 6029 just before the text in mandarin). It is obvious that Mr.Perry has strong yopinions on the issue of chines (like you do) and he expresses them in a more straightforward and less explanatory manner. I believe that your last sentence of your quoted post "For that type of rude talk, bitter discussion and insulting language you have other threads, not this one" will not benefit this thread if Mr. Perry decides not to post anymore here. I will miss him and I believe I will not be the only one. He is a well known designer and I do not accept the depreciating view that this qualification is relevant only to the history of yacht design.

Regards
Rumen
I don't have strong opinions about chines. I am interesting in facts and in why the best world's designers are using them in racing boats and cruising boats and also why on pure racing regatta top crewed boats there seems to be mixed opinions about its effectiveness.

I guess that call my view about chines as myopic is close to stupid and if not insulting his ways are rude and express the opinion of someone that thinks that knows more about it not only than me but more than all other top Nas that use them in cruising boats.

Regarding this : "I do not accept the depreciating view that this qualification is relevant only to the history of yacht", I certainly had not said that. I said that personally I have no particular interest in his recent work, that contrary to older one is not pushing the boundaries of sailing development.

His opinion and his views on the subject regarding the use of modern chines in cruising boast (fashionable as he sees them) have the relevance of coming from a NA but they are not more relevant than the ones from all the top contemporary Nas that design them on their cruising boats.

It is not about Mr Perry opinion, but about the way he expresses it and the way he wants to convince all that his opinion is more relevant than other's opinions, namely regarding all those top Na that use them on their cruising boats and also with the rudeness he expresses it.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-05-2014 at 10:45 AM.
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