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  #6051  
Old 02-05-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Pelican:
Maybe you should read what I wrote before coming to a decision on what my postion on chines is. That's what I would do. I presume your understanding of Mark's position on chines is based on that one boat.

Yes I used the training wheel analogy but that was one comment on one kind of boat with one kind of chine. But I really don't think you know what my position on chines is.
I'm not sure I have a "position on chines". I'd love to hear it.

I have said all along the application of chines has to be matched to the specific boat and it's intended target performance. That seems like simple naval architecture to me.
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  #6052  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
I have said all along the application of chines has to be matched to the specific boat and it's intended target performance. That seems like simple naval architecture to me.
In which case, there is no disagreement between you and Paulo at all, if your position can be summed up in the paragraph above.

I don't believe anyone in this thread has argued that chines are a go-fast / track-like-a-slot-car design feature that can be applied to any boat and magically transform it into a race winner and/or superior cruising platform. If they did, and I missed it, please point me to the claim(s).

I confess that I don't have the luxury of parsing every word of every post like it was Holy Scripture, but I draw impressions from the aggregate of the exchanges on topics like this one, in which I claim no expertise whatsoever, other than having raced at a fairly high level on boats of every type for over 40 years, and reading as much as I can.

Ultimately, nobody is challenging your credentials as a successful, highly regarded NA, whose opinions on such things as chines deserve to be taken seriously. But I have to agree with Paulo that there has been more heat than light in many of the exchanges in this thread, and for the life of me I don't understand why that is.

Clearly there are solid hydrodynamic and engineering reasons to use chines for particular applications on contemporary racing and cruising boats. Many equally successful NAs do so; other equally successful NAs don't, for similar applications. What we're seeking to understand is what specific factors in the design brief influence the decision to employ them or not.

With respect to Open class race boats, like the IMOCA 60s and Classe 40's, we grasp the value of chines given the primary use to which these boats are put: extended, solo / DH offshore racing, primarily downwind. And we understand why some of the virtues that chines bring in that specific application may also hold for peformance cruisers which also spend a good portion of their lives sailing shorthanded in extended offshore / downwind scenarios (or are intended to; like SUVs, plenty of them barely make it out of the marina for a Friday evening cocktail cruise ).

Perhaps a question I might address to you is the following: If François Gabart showed up in your office tomorrow, a bag of Euros in his hand, and asked you to design an IMOCA 60 for him, would you build it with chines or not? If so, why? If not, why not?

Similarly, if Beneteau commissioned you to design a replacement for the new Oceanis 38, with the design brief of being a stable and comfortable platform for fast offshore cruising by couples, chines or no chines?

I promise to read every word very, very carefully.
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  #6053  
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Re: Luffe 3.6

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I think Pelicano was quite clear in what he said and explained well why he said it. That discussion is finished and I don't want this thread to become like that one on steel boats, bitter and nasty.

Changing subject and I hope for good, a very nice narrow modern boat without chines. Quite classical on its lines but also modern in the hull design with the beam pulled back, the Luffe 3.6.

We had talked already about it but a nice movie had turned out with Oluf, its designer at the tiller.
This is really a lovely boat and looks like a joy to sail, upwind and downwind. Doesn't someone who posts regularly to this forum have one in build right now? I seem to recall that this is the case. If so, I can understand why he would want one.

Doesn't fit my design brief, of course, but I want to go fast offshore, downwind, by myself, for extended periods. But if I was going to spend the rest of my life cruising New England and Long Island Sound, this is a boat I would be happy to own.
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  #6054  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Pelican:
Nope I would not design a IMOCA boat with or without chines. I'm comfy here in my beach shack and I don't need the money that badly. But the real reason I would not take that job for any amount of money is that I have never done a boat like that and I'm not sure I would be the best person for the job. In a self indulgent way I'd like to do it but I would not be doing the client a favor. He can go to Farr and get more experience with that kind of boat. My interest is doing the boats I know I can do better than others, the boats I like to use myself. I'd love to sit in on the meetings Gabart would have with the designer he chose. That would be fun. I'd love to have access to all that design research money. For me, now, it's all about enjoying what I do and knowing I do it well.


I'd be happy to draw a boat for Beneteau. Not sure if I'd go with chines or not. It's not that simple a decision for me. I'd have to get into the preliminary design stage and take a look at the benefits offerred by chines if any. I might run some VPP's and compare a chine hull against a non chine hull. Maybe then move the chine around a bit and see if there are any significant changes in performance. The stuff I normally do with VPP's. I play. As I have said over and over I have designed boats with chines. I am not "anti chine" the simplistic way I am painted here. I just view the application of chines specific to the project and not as a blanket panacea recognizing that there are huge variations in chined hulls.

But you see, I could not take a job for Beneteau. I don't want to design Euro decks. I hate the bloated tennis shoe look. And again, I would not be good at that. There are other designers very good at that modern styling. I want to stay in my comfort zone.


The phones ringing,,,hold on,,,It's Beneteau.
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  #6055  
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Beneteau, looks, tastes and niche markets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
.....
But you see, I could not take a job for Beneteau. I don't want to design Euro decks. I hate the bloated tennis shoe look. And again, I would not be good at that. There are other designers very good at that modern styling. I want to stay in my comfort zone.
.....
Designing a boat for Beneteau has a simple and challenging program: a boat that has to fulfill the sail cruising needs of the the largest possible number of cruisers and sailors. For that the boat has to look good and be desirable and good looking to the largest possible number of sailors, be comfortable, with a big interior, well designed, one they find very nice, with a good quality, with the best possible cruising amenities, good storage and tankage, sail at least as well as the competition (and that is very well) and have a building that does not make it expensive and can provide a competitive priced boat :a lot of boat for the money and a boat that can be afforded by many.

What you call Euro is simply what most sailors prefer, being them American or European, if not, the design of the boat would be different. The fact that Benetau is the world leader in sales show that they (and their NAs) got it right regarding that program.

You are always remembering Brent S. that he designs just for a very small market niche. Well, what you call your comfort zone, looking by the boat that you give as example or your last designs is also a very small niche in what regards sailing or cruising. A nice one for very rich people that like classical looking boats (the style you call American) but also a less competitive one. You have to design a boat that a rich client likes. A designer for Beneteau has to design not only a boat that thousands like but one that can be afforded by many hundreds.

I don't understand your contempt regarding how Beneteaus looks (I don't want to design Euro decks. I hate the bloated tennis shoe look). That contempt is also a contempt by the tastes of the vast majority of sailors, being them Euro or American. After all Beneteau is also the leader in America or if not it is Jeanneau whose look is not that different. Sailors don't buy boats they don't like or find attractive and the vast majority find Beneteaus and Jeanneaus attractive band nice.

Regards

Paulo
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  #6056  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo:
You don't get it.

I like to design unique, very well built custom yachts for discerning clients.

Check out Cruising World magazines recent Top 40 Production Yachts of all Time. Three of the top ten boats were my designs. The number one boat was my design. I know production boats. I have thousands. Literally thousands to my credit.

But now I like unique custom boat projects where the build can be amazing and the end result a boat that reflects the client individual approach to life on the water. Beneteaus are out of the question. They are nice boats but they are not for my clients. I would happily do another production boat but it would have to be in a style I liked. I hope that no one is getting the idea that I don't like any Beneteaus. There are some models that I find quite appealing. Others not. I take them individually.
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Last edited by bobperry; 02-06-2014 at 06:57 AM.
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  #6057  
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Re: Beneteau, looks, tastes and niche markets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I don't understand your contempt regarding how Beneteaus looks (I don't want to design Euro decks. I hate the bloated tennis shoe look). That contempt is also a contempt by the tastes of the vast majority of sailors, being them Euro or American. After all Beneteau is also the leader in America or if not it is Jeanneau whose look is not that different. Sailors don't buy boats they don't like or find attractive and the vast majority find Beneteaus and Jeanneaus attractive band nice.

Regards

Paulo
I don't entirely agree with "the market is always right" - even though, from a business perspective, it certainly is. From a design and aesthetic perspective, you have to deal with the reality of boats from firms like Hunter - they sell a lot of boats which, in my perspective, are not particularly pleasing to look at and certainly don't perform well with respect to sailing. What they do well is:

1. Maximize livable interior space
2. Optimize performance while motoring - i.e., their hull designs can resemble powerboats more than sailboats.

There is a sizable segment of the market that appreciates these qualities. But I'd side with Bob here and say I would never want to design a boat where those two objectives were primary.

Of course, I happen to think that Beneteau designers usually get it right, in terms of aesthetics, performance and functionality, though there are plenty of Beneteaus - the Oceanis line, in particular - that I don't find very pleasing. But that's because my tastes run towards what Farr delivers in the First line. And even there I don't think the results are always great - the First 40.7 and 36.7 were okay boats, especially the former, but I don't care for the looks of either one, which are often compared to "beach balls" because of their rather voluminous coach roof designs (compared to the extremely sexy Mills and Ker designs, for example - much more expensive boats, of course).

At the same time, I find the contemporary J/Boat designs to be very appealing aesthetically, and certainly those boats also perform very well under IRC - at the highest levels, in fact. Even in the early 90's, the J/105 was a sexy looking boat above the waterline, while being fairly conventional beneath it. I think most would consider J/Boats a successful mid-market design firm, by any standard, with broad appeal to sailors everywhere.

I would say that Beneteau's success can be attributed to pretty much getting all or most of the key variables correct, from both a business and a design point of view. And because they utilize NAs with significant racing experience and interior designers with deep understanding of ergonomics and functionality and aesthetics, they seem able to square-the-circle with respect to performance vs. comfort quite successfully.

For what it's worth, there's no question that Bob can draw sexy "modern" designs. I've seen Icon up close and it holds its own against any comparable contemporary design at that length. Quite competitive in PNW racing, as well.



Respectfully,

MrP
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Discerning tastes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:
You don't get it.

I like to design unique, very well built custom yachts for discerning clients.

Check out Cruising World magazines recent Top 40 Production Yachts of all Time. Three of the top ten boats were my designs. The number one boat was my design. I know production boats. I have thousands. Literally thousands to my credit.

But now I like unique custom boat projects where the build can be amazing and the end result a boat that reflects the client individual approach to life on the water. Beneteaus are out of the question. They are nice boats but they are not for my clients. I would happily do another production boat but it would have to be in a style I liked. I hope that no one is getting the idea that I don't like any Beneteaus. There are some models that I find quite appealing. Others not. I take them individually.
...
Yes I understand quite well what you say but as you pointed out you once designed to the main market, boats that could appeal to many and whose cost make it affordable. The builders of that type of main market boats chose you to design them. I am talking about boats like the Tayana or Valiant and several others that were mass produced and sold in great numbers.

Neither am I taking out any of your relevance as one of the more important NA from the XX century one that in America pushed the boundaries of cruising boat design and give at that time to the general public, meaning sailors, the boats they wanted, better sailboats.

I am only pointing that by our own choice, or not, you are not working on that main market sector anymore and are working on a niche sector that you call your comfort zone. Nothing wrong with that specially if that makes you happy and it is what you want, but the designers that work for Benetau or Jeanneau work not only that niche sector you chose but the main market, performance cruisers, solo racing and crewed racing.

It seems odd and inelegant to me that you consider their work regarding the main cruising sector (in a general) in a negative and depreciating way. I find also odd that you talk about having to design boats in a style you like. An Architect designs for clients not according his particular tastes but according to client tastes and since Beneteau and Jeanneau work the main market that means the tastes of the vast majority of sailors.

Particularly regarding the Oceanis 38 that you considered looking like "a bloated tennis shoe look", it is designed by Conq that expressed in an article what was was his take regarding aesthetics and that is a pure functionalist one: what makes a boat sail better is beautiful. Regarding sailing and that boat many things were taken from solo racers, that him and Finot had been designing from ages and the boat had ended up having the look of a solo racer adapted to cruising. That according to Conq is a positive aesthetically characteristic since in a functionalist way a top racing boat is beautiful by definition and I (like Conq) believe that the fact the boat looks a bit like a solo racer will have a positive response in what regards general tastes. Sailors will like it.







Regarding the type of clients you have that you describe like "discerning clients", they certainly are rich and want luxury boats but they are also quite conservative in their tastes. A discerning taste may also means a taste for speed in cruising and a boat easy to sail solo (with a luxurious interior) and it seems to me that, contrary to the other NA that also designed by Beneteau and Jeanneau, none of your recent clients has that type of discerning taste.

regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-06-2014 at 09:15 AM.
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  #6059  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Well Paulo, just chalk it up to diversity. Diversity is good. I don't think like you and vice versa. Nothing wrong with that. Diversity. There is no right or wrong. My opiniions are not personal attacks on your choices they are simply my opinions. I am not interested in anyone dictating what my "taste" should be. It's my work and I choose to do it my way. It works well for my clients

"Regarding the type of clients you have that you describe like "discerning clients", they certainly are rich and want luxury boats but they are also quite conservative in their tastes. A discerning taste may also means a taste for speed in cruising and a boat easy to sail solo (with a luxurious interior) and it seems to me that, contrary to the other NA that also designed by Beneteau and Jeanneau, none of your recent clients has that type of discerning taste."

That commenty is just plain silly.
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Pelican:
I'm an ex-J24 owner and I admire almost all the J Boat models.
I also admire the Pogo series.
I like the Beneteau First series.
I am a real fan of Nils Jeppeson's work with the X Yachts.
My last boat was a Peter Norlin design.
My SLIVER is as big (for a single hander), radical, comfortable and fast as possible.
My 62' ketch CATARI is just plain comfortable and pretty.

If someone is going to try to put me in a box here they had better bring a really big box.
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