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  #6051  
Old 02-06-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Thanks Rumen. That worked.
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  #6052  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Hans, can you check the link you posted on the 350 and 410.
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  #6053  
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Elan 350

Quote:
Originally Posted by HMoll View Post
http://http://www.youtube.com/embed/P1OddRBV0mw

This is a link to a clip of a 350 that was featured on Sailing Anarchy highlighting the "massive leeway" evident in the video. You start to wonder if the port tack 410 was having similar control issues, but what is evident in the video is what happens when the Elan's chine digs in beyond "ideal" heel, adding flotation aft. Maybe not loosing rudder control, but maybe the shape is lifting the keel too much out of the water, loosing the groove?
Hans, I don't know of what you are talking a a boat your link video does not work. The Elan 350 is a very well succeeded performance cruiser, so much that after several years on the market, instead of having a completely new model they launched the 360 that has the same hull of the 350:





The boat has also a good overall performance and is used with good results in club regattas even on the ones with light wids like this one (not the strog point of the boat):





As you can see, even if the boat has a rating to high to win on absolute top regattas it is able to win on club reagattas. Note that the boat not being able to win at the higher level has nothing to do with being fast or even faster in real time but with the fact that it is to much penalized by rating.

The Elan, with the Archambault and JPK are also among the very few boats that can get very good race results sailed with a crew or sailed solo. Note that the two other brands have faster boats but more racing oriented with worse cruising interiors and substantially more expensive.

The 360 is just a bit lighter and a bit faster than the 350 and with a better interior.

Regards

Paulo
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  #6054  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

I wouldn't draw ay conclusions about the boats in the vid, too many variables.

What I do see is one boat with a big gaping hole caused by two skippers who should have paid more attention and been more aware of their boat's behaviour in those conditions.
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  #6055  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
I wouldn't draw ay conclusions about the boats in the vid, too many variables.
....
Bob, there is no better way to take conclusions about the sailing performance of a boat than looking at his rating, that is high, or looking at his racing performance, if it is a performance one...and the boat can win making outstanding results in real time even on races with many modern and fast opponents.

A lot of speed and cruising quality for the price, it is clear to all, at lest to all boat testers that sail and know all the new boats on the market. You cannot find anybody that knows the market and says otherwise.

Also a boat that excel in what regards solo performance cruising, at least for the price. A Pogo 10.50 would do better but it costs much more and would not do so well in regatta, being is rating even higher.

Regards

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  #6056  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

"Bob, there is no better way to take conclusions about the sailing performance of a boat than looking at his rating, that is high, or looking at his racing performance, if it is a performance one...and the boat can win making outstanding results in real time even on races with many modern and fast opponents"

Thank you Paulo. I look at ratings all the time. Always have. I look at race results all the time. Always have. I agree they are very good tools for comparisons.
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  #6057  
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Silver / B60

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
... My opiniions are not personal attacks on your choices they are simply my opinions. ...

Quote Paulo:"Regarding the type of clients you have that you describe like "discerning clients", they certainly are rich and want luxury boats but they are also quite conservative in their tastes. A discerning taste may also means a taste for speed in cruising and a boat easy to sail solo (with a luxurious interior) and it seems to me that, contrary to the other NA that also designed by Beneteau and Jeanneau, none of your recent clients has that type of discerning taste."

That commenty is just plain silly.


I have asked you plenty times not to be rude on this thread. I an not silly and resent to be called silly.

I will not use rude language but I will point out that you should look better to what the others say before calling them silly. Or better you should think they are but should not say it. It is called to be polite.

I was talking about your recent works and regarding cruising boats. That boat is a daysailer and a weekend cruiser at most.

But by your rude observation it seems that you consider it a performance daysailer. You could have simply asked, instead of calling me silly, if I did not consider it a performance daysailor and I would have said politely that no, that is not the case. Certainly the boat is a relatively fast daysailor due to its lenght but not a performance one and my opinion is not from now but from many months ago. This is what I said when Faster asked my opinion about it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
....


Certainly a beautiful boat and also an extreme boat regarding several counts:

A 60ft day sailor, very narrow with a small long interior, a big draft and a nice narrow deep bulbed keel.

This is a sailboat that will need a relatively small sail area relatively to its length, a boat that will take advantage of a big LOA and relatively big LWL to be a fast boat, particularly upwind. The narrow hull will not generate a lot of form stability, it is a boat that needs to heel to create RM. With any considerable amount of wind this boat will go fast upwind but with a lot of heel.

I understand and respect the intention to make the boat accordingly with semiotic image of a past traditional model, a long canoe body. That gives a beautiful boat but that double end takes away the possibility of increasing that already small for stability, particularly downwind.

Here you have another American very marrow boat, certainly more sportive, using a shape of hull and transom that will provide more form stability:



But the Silver is a very particular boat certainly for a very particular owner to whom maximizing performance will not be central, neither the interior space in what regards pleasantness or space volume or the possibility to sail in not deep waters. Probably beauty, pleasure of sailing and easy speed are what the owner wants and I have no doubt the boat will provide that.

Anyway, talking about an one off is completely different than talking about a production model. A production model is made to please to a market segment, a one off is made to please a owner. If the owner is completely satisfied and his dreams were fulfilled, than it is a great boat even if it will not please or satisfy the needs of any other sailor. Regarding a production model, it is more complicated since the designer is not trying to satisfy only one client but the needs and desires of many people.
On a performance boat, cruiser or daysailer, sailing potential is the essence of the boat and everything regarding its hull design and rig takes precedence and it is there to increase overall sailing performance.

A performance boat is in what regards the hull and rig has to be a truly functional boat, you don't use there decorative elements or elements that are less effective regarding sailing then others:

You don't use a round transom since that besides providing little drag and good upwind performance is overall less efficient than a transom that provides more form stability without increasing significantly the drag upwind.

You use a balanced hull regarding downwind and upwind best performances and not one that is only maximized for upwind and that will not allow a very good performance downwind.

There is a good reason why rounded bows and very narrow boats are not used today in racing and that's because those shapes and options are not the best in what regards overall performance and on a performance daysailer, cruiser or racer, bettering the performance is what counts.

I will post a daysailer designed under a performance perspective by the Luca Brenta team. It has the same lenght of the Silver and has already some years:













Silly? I don't think so. What I call a performance boat may be different than what you call a performance boat, but not silly. The B60 having a lot more hull form stability than your boat (not only by a superior beam but also by a more efficient transom design) has almost 60% of B/D ratio and this will give you the potential of the boat downwind, without compromising too much (if any) upwind potential. the boat will also have a far better performance reaching.

As I said that is a design with already some years. Probably if the B60 was designed now it would be more like the C42, a Luca Brenta team 2012 design: a bit more beam (even if it still a narrow boat) and chines.



If you were on the market, I mean if someone was building that boat in a small production basis, your boat would have to compete with boats like this one (and there are more) not only in performance as in interior space, cockpit space and overall comfort.

Off course it is not so and as I said before, as long as the client is satisfied, it is a great design.

Regards

Paulo
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  #6058  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

To be accurate Paulo that is not a "round transom". That is no transom. We call that a "double ender" and it is exactly what the client asked for. As for stability, we have lots of it with 10' draft and a big bulb the VPP's show the boat be very stilff and the LPS is around 162 degrees! Walking around on the boat at the dock it doesn't move. This is something took into consideration as part of the normal design process. I don't guess.

Luca Brenta has been a favorite designer of mine for many years. I love his work. But he has his style and I have mine. I'll just continue doing my style. In can still admire Brenta's work. If my work annoys you then that's not my problem. My style is in no way connected to your taste in yachts. I suspect we eat different food. We wear different clothes. We listen to diferent music. We like different boats. Diversity is a good thing.
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  #6059  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Talking 'bout chines...the new RM 890 is sailing! I'm wondering if that reverse bow aids with a softer dig-in.
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  #6060  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by HMoll View Post


This is a link to a clip of a 350 that was featured on Sailing Anarchy highlighting the "massive leeway" evident in the video. You start to wonder if the port tack 410 was having similar control issues, but what is evident in the video is what happens when the Elan's chine digs in beyond "ideal" heel, adding flotation aft. Maybe not loosing rudder control, but maybe the shape is lifting the keel too much out of the water, loosing the groove?
...
Hans
Hans, I can see very little regarding the boat upwind potential except that the boat is bad sailed with two much canvas and is trying to avoid another boat.

When of the things that I think it could be better on Elan 350/360 is the B/D ratio, taking into account the torpedo keel and draft. Sure the boat works well, as a huge form stability but gains little in RM if it is heeled a lot and can lose effectiveness in that situation. That is not typical of this boats but typical of inexpensive mass market cruiser racers.

Having a much bigger B/D ratio would imply a stronger hull and a more expensive boat. That's the case regarding the A35, or the JPK 10.10. That's one of the reasons they are faster and also one of the reasons why they are more expensive

Regards

Paulo
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